Million Dollar Baby- Propaganda or Not?

[Brando @$$ Fat]

I personally cringe when I hear people accuse this film of being propaganda, but I'd like to hear something from both sides.

[ChemicalRomance]

Call me stupid, but I don't fully understand what you're asking. Sorry.

[TheDeadWalk]

I'm guessing he's talking about...

*** SPOILERS ! ***

Euthanasia


*** END SPOILERS ! ***


No, I didn't feel this film was used as propaganda for that. When people say that, it reminds me of people who also say "This film is racist because the black guy died."

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
I'm guessing he's talking about...

*** SPOILERS ! ***

Euthanasia


*** END SPOILERS ! ***


No, I didn't feel this film was used as propaganda for that. When people say that, it reminds me of people who also say "This film is racist because the black guy died."

Well, I've heard people on this site say otherwise. So I guess that's all I'm wondering, who in particular.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
Well, I've heard people on this site say otherwise. So I guess that's all I'm wondering, who in particular.

Yeah, I wasn't citing you down as a personal reference there, I just feel that the people making such claims can't always sit down and watch a great film with powerful characters like that without coming away with some hokus pokus propaganda claim.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
Yeah, I wasn't citing you down as a personal reference there, I just feel that the people making such claims can't always sit down and watch a great film with powerful characters like that without coming away with some hokus pokus propaganda claim.

*Cough*MichaelMedved*Cough*

[C-Desecration-]

Since the outcome of the film can be interpreted as ending badly for old Clint, I'm not sure how it can be propoganda. It doesn't even have a stance on the issue, and the characters are not manipulated to make the scene everyone's talking about look positive, heroic, or even the correct thing to do. His decision, in the film's universe, is not said to be the right one. I mean. . .
Is Man on Fire pro vigilantism?
Or are these just stories.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Lots of stories have a point. Lots of stories have a message. Besides, wasn't Million Dollar Baby based on a book? I could be wrong. But anyway, you can't go into every movie think it's gonna end up with rainbows and a few lollipops up your ass. The film was really sad and really good. So like, who cares, its message was a relevant one.

[notchreturns]

If Million Dollar Baby is propaganda (Euthanasia) than you might as well fit Rocky into the bill (retards should be allowed to fight professionally)

[Brando @$$ Fat]

I'm so glad to see everyone agrees, even though I'd like to hear from the other side.

[Tayzlor]

I'm wondering if there is anyone on this site that find the movie to be propagandaish. I'll assume (and pray) most movie fans (that would register at a board) know the difference between a movie that shoves its agenda in your face or a movie where stuff happens to characters.

This was one of the sillyest controversies of last year. People like Medved's only knock on the film was that it was doing stuff they didn't agree with. According to that, the actual event of euthanasia is propaganda.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Tayzlor
I'm wondering if there is anyone on this site that find the movie to be propagandaish. I'll assume (and pray) most movie fans (that would register at a board) know the difference between a movie that shoves its agenda in your face or a movie where stuff happens to characters.

This was one of the sillyest controversies of last year. People like Medved's only knock on the film was that it was doing stuff they didn't agree with. According to that, the actual event of euthanasia is propaganda.

On one thread I remember a schmoe saying he thought the ending was a political copout movie.

[James Logan]

What everyone else said.

[Lynn7]

I was disappointed in the turn the movie took. I thought that it was really a bad portrayal of the situation. A famous fighter who gets admitted to a cold sterile hospital who is only visited by her rotten family and her coach. No one could give her any hope of having worthwhile life. Well, if I was in a cold sterile white room with no personal attention then I would feel the same way the character felt.

Teh problem is that hospitals are not like that. Even if you don't have family there are lots of opprotunities for warm interactions and lots of therapies, bright colors and pictures and flowers and people who are like you who could visit and give hope. Couldn't she have been an inspirational speaker for kids who want to reach their dreams? Maybe not- she was totally focused on boxing her whole life and it was her choice not to want to live if she couldn't do it anymore. A real downbeat ending.

To answer the original question then I would have to say that the way the movie painted her situation, it definitely did not show the other point of view except that Eastwood's character said no, don't do it but then he helped her out anyway. And the way the priest was portrayed also did nothing for the pro-life side.So in a way the movie was pro-euthanasia because it inadequately gave both sides of the point of view.

[TheDeadWalk]

I don't think it was adqueately supposed to give both sides of any view. This felt very much like a real life situation, and real life situations don't always have that "equal representation".

[Lynn7]

Well maybe they don't have to five both sides equal time but they should at least present a realistic picture. Her hospital stay was very unrealistically portrayed in oreder to create the proper climate for euthanasia.

[C-Desecration-]

Her hospital stay was very unrealistically portrayed in oreder to create the proper climate for euthanasia.


That would be manipulating the world to create a point, and you'd be right. But there have got to be hospitals like that. In fact, there have got to be hospitals even worse than that.
Yes there are stories of people who this has happened to that what, go on to inspire people and raise awareness (Reeves).
There are also stories. . . even more, most likely, of people this happens to who are impossibly depressed until their death, or manage to end their own life with the help of a friend, family member, or doctor.
Million dollar baby just plucked one from the second story. Definitely downbeat. I think you're more arguing that you wanted the movie to give us something upbeat and inspirational, which is fine, but it has nothing to do with propaganda.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Well maybe they don't have to five both sides equal time but they should at least present a realistic picture. Her hospital stay was very unrealistically portrayed in oreder to create the proper climate for euthanasia.

If you really believe this then why didn't you vote "Yes" in the poll?

[echo_bravo]

Million Dollar Baby wasnt propaganda at all. It was very well made like a lot of people on this thread have said.

Medved? Ugh. The dude is an out of touch, paranoid as they come conservative. The dude probably wont even let his kids see The Lion King because it features pre-marital lion sex in it.

As for any other films being propagandish. Of course Micheal Moore

Then there is the best one of them all which is The Life of David Gale which had me cracking up through out ti especially the ending. God, what a terrible movie. There probably wont be a more funnier movie about the death penalty ever again.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by echo_bravo
Medved? Ugh. The dude is an out of touch, paranoid as they come conservative. The dude probably wont even let his kids see The Lion King because it features pre-marital lion sex in it.

Kids? You think this guy has kids? He probably cut his balls off years ago to avoid "sinning."

[MacReady]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
There are also stories. . . even more, most likely, of people this happens to who are impossibly depressed until their death, or manage to end their own life with the help of a friend, family member, or doctor.
Million dollar baby just plucked one from the second story. Definitely downbeat. I think you're more arguing that you wanted the movie to give us something upbeat and inspirational, which is fine, but it has nothing to do with propaganda.

Yes, exactly. There's this guy a man spoke to about once. He had a motocycle accident when he was 17, was paralyzed for life, and finally died at age 65. He said it was depressing to see his friend go trought that. Besides, Reeves was a famous millionare.

As for the film, I don't see it as propaganda (average; definetely, but not popaganda). Clint's a republican not to mention that part of the film only lasts like 15 minutes.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Clint Eastwood is a libertarian, not a republican.

[outsyder]

Saying this movie takes a pro-euthanasia stance is like saying the Island has a definitive pro-life stance. They may be integral to the story, but I don't think anyone is trying to make a political statement outside the boundaries of the film itself.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Clint Eastwood is a libertarian, not a republican.

Yeah, but he ran under republican when he wanted to be mayor of a town once.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by outsyder
Saying this movie takes a pro-euthanasia stance is like saying the Island has a definitive pro-life stance. They may be integral to the story, but I don't think anyone is trying to make a political statement outside the boundaries of the film itself.

I was really enjoying the movie until it took this left turn. The last part just felt so rushed after the movie had taken much time to get to that point. I guess I could buy the movie and say well, her whole life was boxing and once that was over she no longer wanted to live and was willing to kill hereslf and go out knowing she had met the goal of becoming a successful boxer.and she could not do it herself so she asked the man she admired to help her out and he (what a great guy) helped her out by going against what he beleived cause it meant so much to her.

On the other hand, it was just a downer ending.Chris Reeve wanted to die and his wife said I still want you to live becasue you are still you and we want you around. He lived and did really well- worked, travelled, inspired his kids and millions of others. when he died he left behind an upbeat legacy not a downer. That is the difference.

Ive seen people on TV who have no legs etc yet go on to have fully active lives. The SWank character could think and speak and so could've led a useful life but chose not to.Fine- many were inspired by this movie- I was not. Hey, perhpas it was popular casue he went against the teachings of the priest showing what good sense he had to not follow what religion had to say- it was a very popular movie. Religion tries to find hope where there seems to be none but the world view is practical- don't outlive your usefulness!!!

Echo mentioned The Life of David Gale- that was a poorly developed movie that seemed to go against the very point it tried to make.

SPOILER

That the whole point of the excercise was to show how the wrong person was executed but he never tried to defend himself Gale should have been saying she killed herself all along and then if that defense didn't work they could have pulled out the video tape after his death and made the point.
End Spoler



Another poor movie was Cider House Rules which seemed to want to support abortion and yet when you saw the cute kids in the orphanage and the opportunities they had as adults, it seemed to cut against abortion after all.

[countchocula]

Million Dollar Baby wasn't trying to say anything. Don't read too much into it. The film is about people and emotions, not politics. Anti-religion, pro-this, pro-that...you're missing the point if you think that Eastwood had a hidden agenda. For every Christopher Reeve, there's a suicidal near-vegetable who refuses to be optimistic. Million Dollar Baby is a realistic depiction of sorrow. Sometimes, it fades; sometimes, it doesn't.

But I did hate the ending. Nurses are always tuned in to a patient's condition. If someone flatlines, the room is packed within seconds (correct me if I'm wrong, Lynn). In reality, Eastwood would have been caught.

[Lynn7]

Yeah, I guess that the movie wasn't MADE as propaganda but just that the message it ended up portraying fit in with that. I don't think they set out to push a message so much as they decided the story would go this way and then they kind of really pointed in the direction they were going without a fair depiction of how it really is (in my opinion at leasyt!) As a former nurse, I now that we nurses are very supportive and comforting with our discouraged patients and these patients get a lot of attention and loving care. A realistic depiction would have been people comig in and squezing heer hand and asking how she was doing and making talk and getting psych consults and therapy etc. People like her would have probably come in to visit to pump her up and where were all the boxing people- no one to visit her at all except Clint?

You are so right about the end. No way could someone have waltzed into the hospital like that. First of all the doors would've been locked and alarms would have sounded if they took her off her monitors. I know where I worked the doors were locked after 8pm visitng and then you needed to go thru security to get in.

[MacReady]

Hang on a moment,

Lynn, you keep saying the film is unfair and one-sided, that it dosen't things from another perspective. Yet I can think of many movie back in the 80's under Reagan that contstantly paraded around it's right-wing ideas never taking into consideration that there were flaws in their thinking.

For every Dead Man Walking and JFK, there were dozens of "kill all criminals" vigilante flicks to coincide with Reagan's harsher judicial methods. When was the last time something like the Dirty Harry or Death Wish films thought of the possibility of killing an innocent person with shoot-em up vigilantes on the street? That's right never. And that's the tip of the iceberg baby. There's dozens of films back then that advanced right-wing agendas while only showing liberalism is ineffective.

[Lynn7]

I think filmakers can make the movies they want to but I reserve the right to criticize. The Million Dollar Baby people made a movie that was pleasing to many- who am i to say they cannot make it? I just thought it was a downer. I also thought that a character who had so much spunk that she lived off food scraps from her waitressing job would use that same spunk to conquer all obstacles but she had only one agenda and that was boxing and so I did not really find the character that compelling after all. It's kind of like someone who only lives for drugs and nothing else. Or someone who is a workaholic but has a crappy private life. I just can't admire people like this. But that is just me.

and don't forget, that girl put her dear friend in jeopordy of getting caught and going to prison. If the nurses had caught him killing her, his life could've been over.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I think filmakers can make the movies they want to but I reserve the right to criticize. The Million Dollar Baby people made a movie that was pleasing to many- who am i to say they cannot make it? I just thought it was a downer. I also thought that a character who had so much spunk that she lived off food scraps from her waitressing job would use that same spunk to conquer all obstacles but she had only one agenda and that was boxing and so I did not really find the character that compelling after all. It's kind of like someone who only lives for drugs and nothing else. Or someone who is a workaholic but has a crappy private life. I just can't admire people like this. But that is just me.

Why not critise films like Se7en for have "downer"? Why not praise Spielberg for his near superhuman resistance to the possibilty of a negative ending? Life dosen't always end on a happy note, no matter how some may try to achive otherwise.

Originally posted by Lynn7
and don't forget, that girl put her dear friend in jeopordy of getting caught and going to prison. If the nurses had caught him killing her, his life could've been over.

All two or three years of it (let's face it: Clint is no spring chickens).

[TheDeadWalk]

Life never ends on a happy note. Unless someone died that you wanted to see dead.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by MacReady
Yeah, but he ran under republican when he wanted to be mayor of a town once.

You mean 20 years ago?

And he made the movie last year.

I'm just trying to be factual here.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
You mean 20 years ago?

And he made the movie last year.

I'm just trying to be factual here.


I'm also pretty sure people do not run under a political party when running for municipal office.

[JohnTheHenchman]

They can. Though it's not necessary to win as it would be in a national election.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
Why not critise films like Se7en for have "downer"? Why not praise Spielberg for his near superhuman resistance to the possibilty of a negative ending? Life dosen't always end on a happy note, no matter how some may try to achive otherwise.



All two or three years of it (let's face it: Clint is no spring chickens).

This movie felt that thte ending was positive. I'm pretty sure people who liked the movie felt that Clint helped out his friend and did the noble thing by helping her end her life. The way the film ended with a shot of the diner they were at together (if I remember right) was meant to evoke tenderness. My emotions just did not follow where the filmmakers were leading.

I never saw Seven- I really don't like those kinds of movies. I do like movies to end on some kind of high note and books too. If there isn't some positive message then why bother? I know bad things happend and it is improtant to show these things in books or movies but I beleive there is always a high note to be found. For instance, on the day of 9-11, there were many touching stories that even though they eneded in despair, could be uplifiting- the way people risked their lives for each other etc. The reason the Speilbergs of the world make happy endings is because that is what people pay to see. Most people do not want to be left with a feeling of hopelessness and helplesssness.

[MacReady]

John: I've seen Clint be called a republican several other times. However I've since conceded to your arguement so I'm going to quit this right not.

Originally posted by Lynn7
This movie felt that thte ending was positive. I'm pretty sure people who liked the movie felt that Clint helped out his friend and did the noble thing by helping her end her life. The way the film ended with a shot of the diner they were at together (if I remember right) was meant to evoke tenderness. My emotions just did not follow where the filmmakers were leading.

You think the movie is trying to make this sound happy or a good ending? It's obviously shown as a tradgedy and she makes a decision to go out remembered as a near champ.

Originally posted by Lynn7
I never saw Seven- I really don't like those kinds of movies. I do like movies to end on some kind of high note and books too. If there isn't some positive message then why bother? I know bad things happend and it is improtant to show these things in books or movies but I beleive there is always a high note to be found. For instance, on the day of 9-11, there were many touching stories that even though they eneded in despair, could be uplifiting- the way people risked their lives for each other etc. The reason the Speilbergs of the world make happy endings is because that is what people pay to see. Most people do not want to be left with a feeling of hopelessness and helplesssness.

I find it funny you critize welfare and such in another thread for "softening" people yet you insist people have to be given false lies that everything will turn out fine. What about teenagers who grow and are rejected at the college they want? What avout that story I shared with the guy not being able to movie for 38 damn years? Where's the hope in that? What about children in Africa who lsoe their family to starvation, AIDS, and eventually get killed themselves when they decide to join an army? What about the millions of genocide victims around the world? People who lost everything including their entire families to Pol Pot only to learn while they live with this absolute trauma and horror of what they just went throught that that cocksucker died of a heart attack in his sleep, while it his in his 70's, just before he could be brought to a trial and finally be punished?

It's an absolute insult to the audiences' intelligence when the director makes a movie about the killing of millions yet still feels compelled to dig deep within his breast and extract a happy ending.

[Lynn7]

There can always be a happy ending.Since the beginning of time, people have conquered adversities and risen to succeed. and sometimes it is not the person who conquers the adversity but the next generation. Walt Disney's father had failure after failure and yet look what his son accomplished. The slaves were kidnapped and suffered countless torture and indignities and yet their descendents have become the secretary of state and doctors, lawyers and superstar Celebs, jocks and announcers. That is a great ending for a terrible story.We must always look to rise above our circumstances.

POSITIVE QUOTE OF THE DAY
-----------------------------

If you have made mistakes...there is always another chance for
you...you may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this
thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying
down.

-- Mary Pickford (1893-1979) Canadian Actress

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by MacReady
John: I've seen Clint be called a republican several other times. However I've since conceded to your arguement so I'm going to quit this right not.

.

He's called himself a libertarian. http://www.self-gov.org/eastwood.html

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Lynn7
There can always be a happy ending.Since the beginning of time, people have conquered adversities and risen to succeed. and sometimes it is not the person who conquers the adversity but the next generation. Walt Disney's father had failure after failure and yet look what his son accomplished. The slaves were kidnapped and suffered countless torture and indignities and yet their descendents have become the secretary of state and doctors, lawyers and superstar Celebs, jocks and announcers. That is a great ending for a terrible story.We must always look to rise above our circumstances.

POSITIVE QUOTE OF THE DAY
-----------------------------

If you have made mistakes...there is always another chance for
you...you may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this
thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying
down.

-- Mary Pickford (1893-1979) Canadian Actress

If every movie we watched had a good ending, we'd be bored to death. I mean, it takes away the whole purpose of watching drama: to see if the protagonist achieves his goal or solves his issues. Who cares if it depresses us? It shouldn't put us down. In fact, in most cases it should encourage us to rise above. It's so hard to enjoy a movie nowadays since we're all trying to discover "the deeper meaning" of films. Well, if you have to think about it, then there usually is no deeper meaning.

[Lynn7]

Try to name some specific movies that have ended effectively on a bad note and have done well at the box office. I remember one thriller I saw ( I think it was Brain DePalma's Blow out). The main character's girl friend was killed right at the end. That was a downer. I never watched it again. If they could have killed her and then sped ahaed in the future and said something positive- he named his future daughter after her or something. :D

Titanic was a real downer story and yet the way CAmeron handled the ending was so uplifting and beautful and that is why the movie did so well, IMO. He had to speed way in the future to do it and yet he did it.I think the director should show a positive outcome from the story they tell at least in movies. In books it is a different situation cause we are more reflective when we read. I know some people like downer endings but most don't. I don't think MillionDollare BAby was supposed to be a downer I just found it so cause i had expected different from the character.

I think if a movie is going to end on a down note there should be a firm lesson to the story that makes it worth the telling. I remember hearing that when Dickens wrote Great Expectations his friends advised him to change to ending to one more upbeat and he did it although he didn't want to. I think his friends had the right of it- otherwise what was the point of the telling?

One more movie I thought of was In Terms of Endearment- that movie went from comedy to sadness and yet it ended in a way that could give one hope- nothing really happy or momentous happened and yet it followed up after the tragic scenes and that was important to the movie IMO.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Try to name some specific movies that have ended effectively on a bad note and have done well at the box office.

To name a few...
The Godfather
Gone With the Wind
Unforgiven
Love Story
Traffic (I think)

What I'm trying to say, and you may not agree with me on this, is that films don't need good endings all the time. It's also not the writer or directors responsibility to give the audience a sense of hope. Face it, some of the greatest movies of all time had downer endings. While they may have not succeeded at the box office, they are still great films. Chinatown had a pretty bummer ending, but it's regarded as a masterpiece today. Films don't always provide good endings because life doesn't always provide good endings.

[MacReady]

Don't forget the aforementioned Se7en to the list of movies that did well despite not appeasing well to their audiences inability to accept that conflicts can have unpleasant finales. Shit, I could probably think up quite a few before the day is out.

Lynn, I know there are happy stories out there, but I'm just saying there are just as many unhappy stories. Trying to change this in film is dishonest and rather unhelpful to audience who have dramas of their own, and suddenly when there's no Deus Ex Machina to help them out.

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
He's called himself a libertarian. http://www.self-gov.org/eastwood.html

Oh no, he's doing that "thing" again.

Okay, he's not a libertarian.

[QUENTIN]

All three Godfather films were financially and critically succesful, all were nominated for best picture and two of them won, the first film was named the third greatest movie of all-time by the American Film Institute. The films are widely regarded as the greatest trilogy or saga the silver screen has known. All three have very downer endings and tell a sad story. Those who always want a happy ending, despite plausibility and story arc, should stick to children's programming. If a happy ending is appropriate, then great. Many of my favorite films have uplifting endings and almost everyone loves The Shawshank Redemption. But when a downer ending is appropriate, it needs to be there. To say if a movie doesn't have a happy ending, what's the point? Is I think to look at movies only as a chance to lightly entertain us. Never to make us think, never to evoke any emotion other than the positive, never simply to tell a story if it isn't positive. I'd wonder then why someone would spend so much time on a movie message board. By the way, I'm not on speaking terms with Clint, but I don't think the ending was intended to be happy. One of our main characters has suffered a tragedy and died, the other has gone through the agony of killing someone he loves and now may be "lost forever". Se7en is almost upbeat by comparison.

If Million Dollar Baby is propoganda for euthanasia, Requiem For A Dream is propoganda for drugs. Showing a character doing something is not necessarily an endorsement for it.

[someguy]

For the movie, I understood why she wanted it done completely. Her lifelong dream was to become a boxer. Her life was going terribly by just being a waitress, eating the food scraps and barely getting by. Boxing is all she wanted to do, and she got what she wanted. She got to travel around the world, win titles, have a job in doing what she's always wanted to do. She got to the million dollar fight, and even though she lost and ended up in the way she was, she still was glad. Swank wanted to be a boxer her whole life, and she became a great one. She felt that there was no reason to go on because she can never do what she wanted anymore. Remember Morgan Freeman's speech near the end about how so many people die and they think 'I haven't done this' or 'I didn't live a good life' ? As he said, she did do everything she wanted and she would look back and say to herself that she had a good life. She did what she wanted, now that she can never do it again she didn't see the point in living.

Oh yeah, Lynn don't watch Irreversible or Requiem for a Dream. I think that your soul will be crushed ;)

[MacReady]

Originally posted by someguy
Oh yeah, Lynn don't watch Irreversible or Requiem for a Dream. I think that your soul will be crushed ;)

Better yet (and I thought about asking this earlier)...

I challenge Lynn to put both The Vanishing films on her Netflix queue. First she must watch the original French film released in '88 and then the American version released in '93. Then she has to come here and tell us which has the better ending.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by MacReady
Don't forget the aforementioned Se7en to the list of movies that did well despite not appeasing well to their audiences inability to accept that conflicts can have unpleasant finales. Shit, I could probably think up quite a few before the day is out.

Lynn, I know there are happy stories out there, but I'm just saying there are just as many unhappy stories. Trying to change this in film is dishonest and rather unhelpful to audience who have dramas of their own, and suddenly when there's no Deus Ex Machina to help them out.



Oh no, he's doing that "thing" again.

Okay, he's not a libertarian.

Show me something solid that says he's republican! Can't find!

And all the people in libertarian messageboard groups who name him as a celebrity libertarian must be wrong! :rolleyes:

[MacReady]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Show me something solid that says he's republican! Can't find!

In addition to his career as an actor, Eastwood was elected mayor of Carmel-by-the-Sea, California on April 8, 1986. Running as a Republican, he received 72% of the vote (voter turnout was also doubled over the previous mayoral election). He served a two-year term before declining to run for re-election.

Here's my link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Eastwood#Political_career)

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
And all the people in libertarian messageboard groups who name him as a celebrity libertarian must be wrong! :rolleyes:

No, here's how the "debate" went in my eyes:

Me: He's a republican.

You: No, he's a libertarian.

Me: Oh, I guess he is then.

You: Uh, no. I said he's a liberterian.

Me: But now I agree with you that he's a libertarian.

You: And you're wrong, because he's a libertarian.

You kept rejecting any answer I gave you including the ones that agreed with you so I got fed up and simply to play dumb while 'humouring' your debate.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by Brando @$$ Fat
To name a few...
The Godfather
Gone With the Wind
Unforgiven
Love Story
Traffic (I think)

What I'm trying to say, and you may not agree with me on this, is that films don't need good endings all the time. It's also not the writer or directors responsibility to give the audience a sense of hope. Face it, some of the greatest movies of all time had downer endings. While they may have not succeeded at the box office, they are still great films. Chinatown had a pretty bummer ending, but it's regarded as a masterpiece today. Films don't always provide good endings because life doesn't always provide good endings.

I love to talk specifics instead of generalities :) I can't remember how the Godfahter ended and I've seen it 3 times. Does Brando die at the end? Or are you talking about the entire series? I only saw the first 2. I guess I don't mind if that story ends on a bad note since it is about bad people and if their ending is bad isn't it really good?

I read the book Gone With the Wind and Scarlett was so evil that I actually rooted for Rhett when he came to his senses and left. But of course in the movie, we had the feeling she had grown and maybe it would've worked.Also, It kind of ended upbeat cause she said she would get strong and succeed and you had the feeling she might.

I don't think I saw Unforgiven.

Love Story ended sad and yet the positive was he met with his estranged father and said "Love means never having to say you're sorry" so he had grown as a result of his relationship- her influence lived on which in my mind makes it a positve note to end on.

I did see TRaffic but I can't remember much but I do remember it was a downer movie. But it was supposed to be, I guess.

China Town, I haven't seen it in many years but there was a big reveal at the end right?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by QUENTIN
All three Godfather films were financially and critically succesful, all were nominated for best picture and two of them won, the first film was named the third greatest movie of all-time by the American Film Institute. The films are widely regarded as the greatest trilogy or saga the silver screen has known. All three have very downer endings and tell a sad story. Those who always want a happy ending, despite plausibility and story arc, should stick to children's programming. If a happy ending is appropriate, then great. Many of my favorite films have uplifting endings and almost everyone loves The Shawshank Redemption. But when a downer ending is appropriate, it needs to be there. To say if a movie doesn't have a happy ending, what's the point? Is I think to look at movies only as a chance to lightly entertain us. Never to make us think, never to evoke any emotion other than the positive, never simply to tell a story if it isn't positive. I'd wonder then why someone would spend so much time on a movie message board. By the way, I'm not on speaking terms with Clint, but I don't think the ending was intended to be happy. One of our main characters has suffered a tragedy and died, the other has gone through the agony of killing someone he loves and now may be "lost forever". Se7en is almost upbeat by comparison.

If Million Dollar Baby is propoganda for euthanasia, Requiem For A Dream is propoganda for drugs. Showing a character doing something is not necessarily an endorsement for it.

I am not saying that a story has to be happy to be enjoyed but if there is no positive message to come out of it what is the point of telling it. Like I said, the positive might not come for many years. I do not mean I want to be always lightly entertained. And I always demand plausibility in any movie I watch or I lose interest. I used In Terms of Endearment as an example SPOILERS one of the main characters dies at the end and it is so sad for about the last quarter of the film. The movie does not end happy. It shows her family after the funeral and they are quiet but at peace with each other. She is gone and it is tragic and yet life goes on. Nothing momentous happens in that scene. It is done realistically and yet it gives us hope. END SPOILERS

The Godfather movies would not give us hope cause these movies are about murderers etc. In these films it portrays the dark side of a way of life. If there was a happy ending these characters would never appreciate it cause they feed on adrenalin and unhappiness. I see these kinds of films as an exception (these films also include movies like Traffic about the seemy side of life).

Million Dollar Baby was a feel good movie up until the end when it took a left turn. The movie didn't end showing him going to prison or anything bad happening. It showed the diner where they had sat and talked one time which led me to think the scene was meant to evoke their friendship and then of course the ultimate deed he did for the friendship. I thought the movie celebrated him as he walked down that hall and gave her the overdose that would kill her- as she smiled up at him with heartfelt gratitude. I thought it was trying to send a positive message about what a great friend he was to her.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
Better yet (and I thought about asking this earlier)...

I challenge Lynn to put both The Vanishing films on her Netflix queue. First she must watch the original French film released in '88 and then the American version released in '93. Then she has to come here and tell us which has the better ending.


If they are horror, count me out. Anything with gore I can't watch. I was traumatized watching Grizzly many years ago. :) Otherwise I would be willing to do it.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
If they are horror, count me out. Anything with gore I can't watch. I was traumatized watching Grizzly many years ago. :) Otherwise I would be willing to do it.

It's more of a psychological thriller than a horror. The original dosen't have a drop of blood if I recall and the American one does have bloodshe it's more in the "fighting enemies" style found in action movies.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by MacReady
Here's my link. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clint_Eastwood#Political_career)



No, here's how the "debate" went in my eyes:

Me: He's a republican.

You: No, he's a libertarian.

Me: Oh, I guess he is then.

You: Uh, no. I said he's a liberterian.

Me: But now I agree with you that he's a libertarian.

You: And you're wrong, because he's a libertarian.

You kept rejecting any answer I gave you including the ones that agreed with you so I got fed up and simply to play dumb while 'humouring' your debate.

Ok as long as I was right, that's what matters.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Ok as long as I was right, that's what matters.

I'll give you 70-30

Any other scorers on hand?