Gaza Pullout...will it solve anything?

[echo_bravo]

What do you all think about the recent Gaza Pullout? Just watching it on the news and I must say it is pretty sad and moving. I feel awful for the Jewish settlets that have to leave behind everything.

Do you think this will solve anything to the Israeli/Palestinan conflicts?

[MacReady]

It better.

*Shakes fist in the air*

[Lynn7]

Every time I see it I get tears in my eyes. These people lived under difficult circumstances for years and many of their loved ones have been killed because of it and now they leave humiliated. It is so sad.

You would think that it might be helpful so the Palestinians could create their own place and yet the news was showing many of the Palestinians taking heart from the Jews being evacuated and threatening to take over the rest of the land. That is not helpful to rub salt in the wounds when someone has humbled themselves to make things better.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Lynn.

The land belonged to the Palestinians first. The people you're crying about took the land from them in the first place.

I for one think this is great, and hope it solves something.

[outsyder]

I hope this works. But other than the small amount of people refusing to leave, militant Palestinian groups are claiming supreme victory, etc. like it was all their doing.

They don't seem to understand that without Isreal intentionally pulling out, it never would have been forcefully taken over. Those idiots should shut up, because if anything will reignite the situation, it will be Palestinian gloaters inciting attacks from radical Israelis and then KABOOM, the powderkeg goes off.

Either that, or a Sharon assassination by Israeli extremists.

[Criminal Rock]

I thought it was a retarded move, I don't think those Israelites deserve to leave their homes, and I also don't think Pakistanis deserve anything let alone some fucking land. However, it is a government issued order, and they should abide to that… it seems like some random move after all the talk about not giving up anything. Oh well, its already happening… can’t stop it now.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by Tai Mai Jew
I thought it was a retarded move, I don't think those Israelites deserve to leave their homes, and I also don't think Pakistanis deserve anything let alone some fucking land. However, it is a government issued order, and they should abide to that… it seems like some random move after all the talk about not giving up anything. Oh well, its already happening… can’t stop it now.


It's a complicated situation. Here's an analogy I hope will help.

The Palestinians are living in a house. All of a sudden these people called the Israelies show up and say "Dude, this is my house, some guy kicked me out of it and I'm back. Get out of my house." The Palestinians are then like "Well dude, I didn't steal your house, all I did was move here." The Israelis are then like "Well I have the deed (UN resolution), so get the fuck out." Then the Palestinians are all "Well guy, this isn't fair, I have nowhere to live now. You know what, since I've been kicked off your land, I'm gonna camp out just outside the property line and we can piss each other off." And the Israelis are like "Oh fuck you!" And they take over part of the Palestinian camp site. Lots of bad stuff happens. Now the Israelis have finaly agreed to withdraw from the campsite.

Far from loving neighbours, but it's a start.

[Criminal Rock]

People have been fighting over the same piece of land, for only god knows how long; I thought this MODERN conflict all started with Britain’s invasion of Palestine… maybe, maybe not.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by Tai Mai Jew
People have been fighting over the same piece of land, for only god knows how long; I thought this MODERN conflict all started with Britain’s invasion of Palestine… maybe, maybe not.


The Balfour Declaration. It wasn't so much the declaration itself in 1917 that the conflict started, but the Israeli war of Independence in 1948 that kicked off all of the problems, especially since Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia all declare war on Israel.

[Criminal Rock]

The Balfour Declaration!!! i completely forgot what it was called... its been a while since i've been in college boys, so don't hate.

[echo_bravo]

I do believe that the ball is in Palestines court now. They need to do their part in keeping the peace as well (no more suicide attacks)

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Lynn.

The land belonged to the Palestinians first. The people you're crying about took the land from them in the first place.

I for one think this is great, and hope it solves something.

God gave the land to the Jews. I know this explanation won't wash with non-beleivers but that is what the bible says. This conflict will never be resolved and the Jews will be invaded and slaughtered in the end times (anti-Christ etc) and that is also what the bible says. So, for now, this is one more step toward the biblical conclusion. I feel bad for the Jews. I do think it is their land. I think that by vacating this land it is a noble gesture toward trying to attain peace with the Palestinains.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally posted by Lynn7
God gave the land to the Jews. I know this explanation won't wash with non-beleivers but that is what the bible says. This conflict will never be resolved and the Jews will be invaded and slaughtered in the end times (anti-Christ etc) and that is also what the bible says. So, for now, this is one more step toward the biblical conclusion. I feel bad for the Jews. I do think it is their land. I think that by vacating this land it is a noble gesture toward trying to attain peace with the Palestinains.

Neither of them deserve the land, simple as that. The Israelites are just as responsible for all this fighting as the Palestinians are. Lynn, just because it's the right wing belief that the Israelites deserve the land, doesn't mean that they actually do. For Chrissakes, it's ok to have your own opinions, don't always go with what the Bible says or what Newt Geingrich says.

[The Postmaster General]

I was waiting until the fact that this is a religious issue was brought up.

That's my big problem with the whole thing. There is no reason to be involved except to exute faith.

If the people in America are so concerned about the holy land, I propose they load up on guns, go over there and kick everyone out so they can live there themselves. On their way out, they can apologize to the Native Americans, and ask the blacks if any want to be dropped off at Africa. I mean, if people really are concerned about setting thigns right.

The right thing is done, and they sorted it out for themselves. And this just bothers people to death -- because of the prophecies of having the Holy Land in order for the Second Coming and all that shit that this is 99% about, with 1% being political smoke screens.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by Lynn7
God gave the land to the Jews. I know this explanation won't wash with non-beleivers but that is what the bible says. This conflict will never be resolved and the Jews will be invaded and slaughtered in the end times (anti-Christ etc) and that is also what the bible says. So, for now, this is one more step toward the biblical conclusion. I feel bad for the Jews. I do think it is their land. I think that by vacating this land it is a noble gesture toward trying to attain peace with the Palestinains.

god is not a democratically elected head of state

Noble gesture my ass. They should hope this satisfies the Palestinieans.

[Lynn7]

You can sum up all of the middle east issues with one word: religion. In our country and many others religon has been downgraded to nothing more than superstition but to those in the middle east religion is everything and what the bible says is everything too. As I have said before, the non-Jews are quick to point out that they are descended from Abraham just as the Jews are and they are right. However, God deals differently with Israel than with any other people. All of what is happening is very prophetic. This will never be resolved until the end times come and then God will resolve it all (except for one period of false peace that will last for about 2 years).

[someguy]

Lynn, quick question

Did you get all teary eyed when the Palestinians are/were forced out of their homes? I'm just curious, that's all.

[The Postmaster General]

Lynn7 - Summarized my point nicely. Can I see where you're coming from in regards to these comments:

If it's predestined, explain why it would make a difference. And also explain more about the prophecy.

I've tried to touch on this stuff in other threads, and you're right -- it's totally ignored. I really don't think people understand the true raminfications of everything that is happening. Whether or not people have faith in this is a non-issue, because regardless, there are enough believers for this to be some major shit going down.

Also - how alert do you think Bush is to all of these things? Do you think he basis policy on it?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by someguy
Lynn, quick question

Did you get all teary eyed when the Palestinians are/were forced out of their homes? I'm just curious, that's all.

I feel bad for many of the Palestinians but I don't feel bad when they go around killing innocent Jewish teens lined up to go into a bar or Jews at a marketplace or restaurant etc. Then my empathy grows cold. I understand the land is in dispute and there is a continual tug of war and people will be in pain over this til the end of days. It is a sad situation for everyone who is Jewish or Palestinian.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Lynn7 - Summarized my point nicely. Can I see where you're coming from in regards to these comments:

If it's predestined, explain why it would make a difference. And also explain more about the prophecy.

I've tried to touch on this stuff in other threads, and you're right -- it's totally ignored. I really don't think people understand the true raminfications of everything that is happening. Whether or not people have faith in this is a non-issue, because regardless, there are enough believers for this to be some major shit going down.

Also - how alert do you think Bush is to all of these things? Do you think he basis policy on it?

I'm sorry but when you say make a difference how do you mean that? I don't think Bush is deciding these issues on biblical prophecies cause he would be making different decisions, IMO. I think he is truly trying to find common ground between the two interests. I think Clinton did this too but the Israelis have been giving up way more than they are getting and I don't think it is appreciated.

I don't understand how anyone can doubt that God exists and protects Israel, when Istael has been surrounded by so many hostile Islamic countries and yet they have not been wiped out. I beleive it is only God who holds these people back from the Jews until the time when the prophecy is ready to take place in God's own planned time.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I don't understand how anyone can doubt that God exists and protects Israel, when Istael has been surrounded by so many hostile Islamic countries and yet they have not been wiped out. I beleive it is only God who holds these people back from the Jews until the time when the prophecy is ready to take place in God's own planned time.

For starters, there is no real reason for god to exist. Second, the scriptures from the bible (and I'm certain the Qu'ran and the Torrah are very similar) are filled with ridiculous proclamations and dubious consitency.

Second, have you ever considered "law of average"? For example, for centuries across the world jews have been treated as second class citizens, up until about 3 quaters of a century ago when 6 million of them were exterminated. In other words, they've had nothing but bad luck, so odds are that somthing good would finally arise.

Third, if you're going to thank god for protecting them, then surely he also must take blame for doing such an immensely horrid job for the last millenium or two. Why, he still can't even stop them from being blown up many times from terrorists even to this day.

Fainlly, you might mention the palestian terrorist, but it must mentioned that Isreal forces have also commited crimes against innocent people as well, thus making this another "grey zone" area.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I don't understand how anyone can doubt that God exists and protects Israel, when Istael has been surrounded by so many hostile Islamic countries and yet they have not been wiped out. I beleive it is only God who holds these people back from the Jews until the time when the prophecy is ready to take place in God's own planned time.


I"m not sure it's our place to understand that. There's some bible passage about that, but I'm too burned out to remember it.

[someguy]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I feel bad for many of the Palestinians but I don't feel bad when they go around killing innocent Jewish teens lined up to go into a bar or Jews at a marketplace or restaurant etc. Then my empathy grows cold. I understand the land is in dispute and there is a continual tug of war and people will be in pain over this til the end of days. It is a sad situation for everyone who is Jewish or Palestinian.

Oh and Israel has nobody attacking the palestinians?

[JohnTheHenchman]

It's all an excuse. Since Palestinians were portrayed more as terrorists with their suicide bombing and the like, it's just a way to make Israel look alright. No one wants to acknowledge that Israel has no right to exist, so let's just say god wants it to!

Lynn, what if god said that the United States of America is actually muslims holy land and it should be given to them? How would you feel about that?

[outsyder]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
It's all an excuse. Since Palestinians were portrayed more as terrorists with their suicide bombing and the like, it's just a way to make Israel look alright. No one wants to acknowledge that Israel has no right to exist, so let's just say god wants it to!

Lynn, what if god said that the United States of America is actually muslims holy land and it should be given to them? How would you feel about that?


In a factual sense, that's just not right. At least Jews inhabited Israel before they were driven out. Muslims have never been the premier inhabitants of North America. If anything, that would be Aboriginal 'holy land,' so-to-speak.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Welcome to the world of hypothetical statements

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
For starters, there is no real reason for god to exist. Second, the scriptures from the bible (and I'm certain the Qu'ran and the Torrah are very similar) are filled with ridiculous proclamations and dubious consitency.

Second, have you ever considered "law of average"? For example, for centuries across the world jews have been treated as second class citizens, up until about 3 quaters of a century ago when 6 million of them were exterminated. In other words, they've had nothing but bad luck, so odds are that somthing good would finally arise.

Third, if you're going to thank god for protecting them, then surely he also must take blame for doing such an immensely horrid job for the last millenium or two. Why, he still can't even stop them from being blown up many times from terrorists even to this day.

Fainlly, you might mention the palestian terrorist, but it must mentioned that Isreal forces have also commited crimes against innocent people as well, thus making this another "grey zone" area.

If you read the Old Testament God was constantly with the Jews and He would bless them and then withdraw their blessings but He said there would always be a remnant. When God promised the promised land to the Jews (after he did all of those wonderful miracles with Moses including parting the sea for their escape) they still did not beleive in His strength and cowered about going into the land to take it over so God made them walk the desert for 4o years until all but the two who beleived had died off. Then they went in and took the promised land.

God does not promise all good things to His people while they are on earth. He said we will have tribualtion but to be of good cheer cause He has overcome the world.

It's amazing that even though people have been out to destroy the Jews since the beginning of them, they live on and thrive. They have the best police, the best soldiers and their land is bountiful and they live well. This is God's blessing upon them.Also, becasue they follow God's teachings the Jews tend to prosper wherever they go and this causes a lot of jealousy. Almost all of my doctors are Jewish and of course they are prominent in the business world. I went to a Jewish Community Center the otehr day and was so impressed with how well it is taken care of and how many good things were there. When people work together they can do many good things.

[C-Desecration-]

Almost all of my doctors are Jewish and of course they are prominent in the business world


Well jewish people are good with numbers. Also, white people can't dance, blacks can pop a cap-izize into my ass better than they can teach, and I think I just saw a mexican make off with my wallet. . . hey!. . .hey!!

You get the car, I'll dial 911.

Edit: By the way, I'm not implying anything. I'm just not sure about your jew reasoning. Seems like a tired stereotype.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Lynn, the bible is not a law book.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
Well jewish people are good with numbers. Also, white people can't dance, blacks can pop a cap-izize into my ass better than they can teach, and I think I just saw a mexican make off with my wallet. . . hey!. . .hey!!

You get the car, I'll dial 911.

Edit: By the way, I'm not implying anything. I'm just not sure about your jew reasoning. Seems like a tired stereotype.

I guess I should say I am speaking from personal experience since those were my doctors I was talking about and no one else's. Also there is a huge Jewish community near me and they are very well off. But give me a break here- comics are always getting laughs when they make fun of one communtiy or another- their routines are loaded with stereotypes and everyone laughs in recognition. Here in the US we are a big melting pot but each country's people tend to have their own characteristics and behaviors. For instance, when I was in nursing school we were taught that Puerto Ricans tend to come to the hospital to be with their sick loved one. All of the family will come and maybe even some neighbors too cause that is their custom. And guess what? It proved true time and time again. I could've gotten up and said to the teacher "That is just terrible to stereotype a group like that!" :)

[C-Desecration-]

Didn't mean to imply anything, but, if you were saying that jews themselves are successful because of divine intervention, that's pretty. . .radical?
There, I found a nice way to put things.

[The Postmaster General]

You mean, God helps them out, and makes them prosper. God doesn't have any beef with them for not following the teachings of his "son" - meaning that they don't stick to every word printed in the successive versions of the bible?

Hey, those athiests might end up okay afterall. This could be even greater news for Muslems.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
If you read the Old Testament God was constantly with the Jews and He would bless them and then withdraw their blessings but He said there would always be a remnant. When God promised the promised land to the Jews (after he did all of those wonderful miracles with Moses including parting the sea for their escape) they still did not beleive in His strength and cowered about going into the land to take it over so God made them walk the desert for 4o years until all but the two who beleived had died off. Then they went in and took the promised land.

What about Palesitian muslims who don't believe in the New Testament?

Originally posted by Lynn7
It's amazing that even though people have been out to destroy the Jews since the beginning of them, they live on and thrive. They have the best police, the best soldiers and their land is bountiful and they live well. This is God's blessing upon them.Also, becasue they follow God's teachings the Jews tend to prosper wherever they go and this causes a lot of jealousy. Almost all of my doctors are Jewish and of course they are prominent in the business world. I went to a Jewish Community Center the otehr day and was so impressed with how well it is taken care of and how many good things were there. When people work together they can do many good things.

Strange, you seem to mention god will rewards them in the afterlife, blissfully (or in denial) of what really happens to people who don't accept Christ as their savior in the afterlife.

Also, getting over jew stereotypes, what about the secular jews who've made a fine living in America? Or how about the fact that it wasn't even more then a century ago when (most of) the world finally excepted them as part of the human race and constantly persecuted them for centuries and centuries?

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
Didn't mean to imply anything, but, if you were saying that jews themselves are successful because of divine intervention, that's pretty. . .radical?
There, I found a nice way to put things.

Actually, God does say that he will bless those that bless the Jews and he will curse those who curse the Jews but what I was saying is that becasue the Jews tend to follow God's teachings they do prosper. I beleive that the bible is the owner's manual to the world, written by the maker, and that whoever follows this manual will do well. :)

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
You mean, God helps them out, and makes them prosper. God doesn't have any beef with them for not following the teachings of his "son" - meaning that they don't stick to every word printed in the successive versions of the bible?

Hey, those athiests might end up okay afterall. This could be even greater news for Muslems.


God addresses this a lot in the bible- Jesus tells a story about how a rich man invites his family and friends to a big wedding for his son and no one wants to come so he (being greatly offended) goes out and invites people from the street to come celebrate with him. I might be messing it up a bit cause I didn't look it up before I wrote it but if I did, I'll come back and edit it. He also says that those who were first will be last and those who were last will be first. We are the riff raff from the street who are coming to the party because the family (the Jews) didn't accept Jesus. We are also the last who will be first although the Jews are the first who will be last.
Actually the book of REvelation is all about the Jews and how they will finally recognize Jesus as messiah and it all comes out right. But Jews and Muslims are all welcome there is just that one stumbling block: Jesus.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
What about Palesitian muslims who don't believe in the New Testament?



Strange, you seem to mention god will rewards them in the afterlife, blissfully (or in denial) of what really happens to people who don't accept Christ as their savior in the afterlife.

Also, getting over jew stereotypes, what about the secular jews who've made a fine living in America? Or how about the fact that it wasn't even more then a century ago when (most of) the world finally excepted them as part of the human race and constantly persecuted them for centuries and centuries?

I don't think I said anything about the afterlife. As far as secular Jews they tend to follow the practical teachings in the bible but maybe have drifted from the spiritual. I beleive the Jews have always been persecuted and will always be persecuted because the real war is SAtan against God and becasue of this Satan always targets anything belonging to God (See Job). Christians get targetted a lot too.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
God addresses this a lot in the bible- Jesus tells a story about how a rich man invites his family and friends to a big wedding for his son and no one wants to come so he (being greatly offended) goes out and invites people from the street to come celebrate with him. I might be messing it up a bit cause I didn't look it up before I wrote it but if I did, I'll come back and edit it. He also says that those who were first will be last and those who were last will be first. We are the riff raff from the street who are coming to the party because the family (the Jews) didn't accept Jesus. We are also the last who will be first although the Jews are the first who will be last.
Actually the book of REvelation is all about the Jews and how they will finally recognize Jesus as messiah and it all comes out right. But Jews and Muslims are all welcome there is just that one stumbling block: Jesus.


Do you think that, if I took the bible, and changed all the nouns in it -- changed Jesus to Jeff, for instance --- If I taught that book to children from birth, and they grew up, but were actually worshipping the wrong diety -- went around telling people they believe in the power of Jeff, and asking people "What would Jeff do?" And instead of God, I called it The G-Spot, and told the kid that they worship the G-Spot? Instead of Christianity I told them they were Jefftians.

Would that kid be accepted by God? (with no comment on what would happen to me....)

Sorry if this is getting a bit philisophical......

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Actually, God does say that he will bless those that bless the Jews and he will curse those who curse the Jews but what I was saying is that becasue the Jews tend to follow God's teachings they do prosper. I beleive that the bible is the owner's manual to the world, written by the maker, and that whoever follows this manual will do well. :)

What about Josef Mengele, who tortured hundreds of jews in sadistic experiments and died at 67 in Brazil after a swim?

Originally posted by Lynn7
I don't think I said anything about the afterlife. As far as secular Jews they tend to follow the practical teachings in the bible but maybe have drifted from the spiritual. I beleive the Jews have always been persecuted and will always be persecuted because the real war is SAtan against God and becasue of this Satan always targets anything belonging to God (See Job). Christians get targetted a lot too.

Bull. Their "following the bible" in the same way I am. People aren't killing each other or fucking in the streets anymore. Atheists included. I just don't believe in talking snakes or opressing people merely because they feel attracted to the same gender. Also I won't deny there are (a few) anti-christians, quite your balling. It's no where near as severe as anti-semitism today, and a comparison to pre-mid 40's is downright laughable. I say there are also anti-atheist christians out there. So please, if you're tired of having people complain that we must always be prepared for an afterlife that isn't even proven by following ridiculous and just plain cruel laws, then go cry a river on the shoulders of your 2 billion (about a third of humanity) fellow converts.

[C-Desecration-]

I beleive that the bible is the owner's manual to the world, written by the maker, and that whoever follows this manual will do well.


Here I thought you meant that anyone who is a jew, period, will prosper (not that simply following their place, or whatnot, will give them benefits). As in if a jew is born better follow the kike around because he'll go on to great success.
Tyke! I meant tyke, follow the tyke around. . .
Boy is my face red.

Edit: My gosh, was that joke in poor taste. Oy.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Do you think that, if I took the bible, and changed all the nouns in it -- changed Jesus to Jeff, for instance --- If I taught that book to children from birth, and they grew up, but were actually worshipping the wrong diety -- went around telling people they believe in the power of Jeff, and asking people "What would Jeff do?" And instead of God, I called it The G-Spot, and told the kid that they worship the G-Spot? Instead of Christianity I told them they were Jefftians.

Would that kid be accepted by God? (with no comment on what would happen to me....)

Sorry if this is getting a bit philisophical......

The thing about God is that he knows what is inside each person's heart and that is why there is no fooling him. Many people say what about the people who have never heard of God- what will happen to them? The thing is, is that God is fair and he knows everyone's thoughts and feelings so that kind of sums it all up. We Christians beleive that JEsus was God and that you can read his teachings and the situatiosn he was in and then you can know who God is and how He thinks and how he judges.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
Here I thought you meant that anyone who is a jew, period, will prosper (not that simply following their place, or whatnot, will give them benefits). As in if a jew is born better follow the kike around because he'll go on to great success.
Tyke! I meant tyke, follow the tyke around. . .
Boy is my face red.

Edit: My gosh, was that joke in poor taste. Oy.

No, sorry if I wasn't clear. We beleive that God loves ALL people equally but he actually has a special relationship with the Jews becasue he made promises to them as a people. But you can see inthe Old Testament that when any of the Jews screwed up, they recieved no special treatment from God.

The Bible teaches certain rules that, if followed, produce good things. for instance, it teaches not to have sex outside of marriage. If someone just follows that teaching they may be spared the heartache of desertion, abortion, they will tend to be less likely to be impoverished (kids of married people tend not to live in poverty) and then as the kids grow, if the marriage is good, the kids will be less likely to get into trouble casue they will have been raised with some stability. This is one example of how things may go well if you follow God's teachings. This stuff works for anyone- Jews, Muslims and Christians or even atheists.

If everyone practiced God's teachings int he Middle East life would go much better- neighbor helping neighbor.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
The thing about God is that he knows what is inside each person's heart and that is why there is no fooling him. Many people say what about the people who have never heard of God- what will happen to them? The thing is, is that God is fair and he knows everyone's thoughts and feelings so that kind of sums it all up. We Christians beleive that JEsus was God and that you can read his teachings and the situatiosn he was in and then you can know who God is and how He thinks and how he judges.


Someone could be good, but never realize they are doing good, or understand that concept of good, and still be accepted into God's Kingdom?

[Criminal Rock]

I'm assuming Lynn''s talking about their intentions more so then their actions.

[Lynn7]

Yeah, even St. Paul said, why do I do what is wrong even though I don't want to do it (paraphrased) and he also said he was the chief sinner of all.

But, in the Christian religion, getting into heaven is not about beign good really. It is about beleiving in the salvation of Jesus. That belief will lead you into right behavior though. In other religons it is about being good to succeed in the faith- like the Muslim's and the Jews and the Budhists I think. Christiantiy is about the recognition that we are all sinners and we need a savior.

Bubba, as far as your question goes about knowing or not knowing if someone is being good, people know. Jesus would never get into philisophical extrapolations (if I'm using the right word). He would usually turn them around on the questioner to get them to think about it.

[The Postmaster General]

I don't think JC could turn this one around on me. This is not hypothetical.

I'm talking specifically about apathetic people. Those who don't care, and function only for self-preservation. You also have nihlistic ideals that reject values, thought that one is more debatable. Then you have people who do good only to avoid being punished by man's law. There's other examples, some harder to explain, but there is plenty of recorded evidence that not everyone knows the difference between good or bad.

Yesterday I was much more philosophical and you were able to relate that stuff pretty well. I'm very interested to know, because I don't deny the existance of people who are unaware of the consequence of their actions. Otherwise, I would see little point in the concept of missonary work as I view the work as making people understand the concepts of values.

[Lynn7]

I hope I am understanding right- if not, please excuse! ;)

I think with JC as you and Andrew Lloyd Webber call him, it is simple. People who believe that Jesus is the son of God, sent to die for mankind's sins (salvation) and that he was resurrected---- that is the admission ticket and it does not matter how good someone is or isnt. That is the entire point of the Christian faith. Many people cna't accept that but unfortunately that is what the entire New Testament talks about and the Old Testament too but it's prophecies had yet to be fulfilled.

He just does not really get into what ifs- he tends to get to the point. Its easy to see how he stands in any of the gospels so I am not saying anything denominational.

[The Postmaster General]

Okay, that sounds more like how I understood it. One of us got confused in the responses somewhere and neither of us noticed.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I think with JC as you and Andrew Lloyd Webber call him, it is simple. People who believe that Jesus is the son of God, sent to die for mankind's sins (salvation) and that he was resurrected---- that is the admission ticket and it does not matter how good someone is or isnt. That is the entire point of the Christian faith. Many people cna't accept that but unfortunately that is what the entire New Testament talks about and the Old Testament too but it's prophecies had yet to be fulfilled.

I still don't think it's fair for god to send non-christians to hell.

[C-Desecration-]

I still don't think it's fair for god to send non-christians to hell.


God isn't fair. And I don't buy that he can't save you if you don't want to be saved either, because I'm sure he can do any darned thing he wants. I mean he's God.

Odd that something so divine and great uses what is essentially a threat in this way. Now I'm not trying to look at this in some overly bad light or something, but damn. I'd really hope a divinity would be over such . . . human, tripe.

God should be above this.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by C-Desecration-
God isn't fair. And I don't buy that he can't save you if you don't want to be saved either, because I'm sure he can do any darned thing he wants. I mean he's God.

What do you mean "want to be saved"? He dosen't provide a shred of evidence of his existence. Are muslim families in the middle of the dessert over in Iran suddenly supposed to wake up and realize "My god, are religion is crap. It's obvious that christianity is right on the money. Show could we have been so stupid as to listen to what are parents hard wired into our skulls"?

[C-Desecration-]

He dosen't provide a shred of evidence of his existence.


That's where the whole faith thing comes into play.

I'm not sure if I'm right on how things work, but if anyone born and raised in another religion entirely would go straight to hell for basically "picking the wrong one", that's . . . wait, I don't think it's supposed to work that way though. I remember this question coming up awhile back, and our resident bible babe said it wasn't entirely true.
If I'm remembering all this right.

[Lynn7]

LOL! Pretty funny ;)

God says this is the way to get in. People choose to do it or they choose not too. From what my experience has been most people who don't buy into it don't even take the time to explore to see if it is true or not- they hear a few things from various people and then decide their entire destiny (secretly hoping that there really isn't a God or that if God exists it's one of the gods who thinks everyone can come if they are "good" whatever that means).

God holds people accountable for their actions-in the bible he even says there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blashemy of the Holy Spirit (which means that when truth knocks at your door, you reject it and go along your own way).

God does not seem unfair to me. He offers heaven to every single person who chooses to come but it has to be by the way he has said- at least in the case of the Christian God.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
God says this is the way to get in. People choose to do it or they choose not too. From what my experience has been most people who don't buy into it don't even take the time to explore to see if it is true or not- they hear a few things from various people and then decide their entire destiny (secretly hoping that there really isn't a God or that if God exists it's one of the gods who thinks everyone can come if they are "good" whatever that means).

See, my view on god wanting everybody in is kinda like a life guard at the beach who's seeing somebody drown and instead og getting off his ass and rescuing them stands there and simply hopes that the victim will know what to do since he should know these things. Then when the victim drowns he blames it on him and says he did more than enough work, despite the fact that the victim's parents boldly said they were too busy to teach him and relied instead on the lifeguard.

Shit, there are peadophiles who try to resist their urge. Should we release them merely because they tried?

Originally posted by Lynn7
God holds people accountable for their actions-in the bible he even says there is only one unforgivable sin and that is blashemy of the Holy Spirit (which means that when truth knocks at your door, you reject it and go along your own way).

I think god's a saditistic shit he has the worst logic of any deity I might have ever heard and continually mistreats his children. If he exists, he's no better than any dictator of the 20th century.

Originally posted by Lynn7
God does not seem unfair to me. He offers heaven to every single person who chooses to come but it has to be by the way he has said- at least in the case of the Christian God.

Listen, I've never heard of non-christians suddenly waking up near the end of their life and realize that they've been following the wrong belief. Whatever religion they believe in, they likely got it from their parents. What if they study up on every other religion, and choose something like buddhism because the Bible and the Qu'Ran are full of incosistencies, promotions of cruelty, intolerance and genocide and happen to be full of absurd fantasy? Christians theories about how nature is so beautiful it simply must have had a creator can easily be credited to any other god.

Let me ask you something: what if you go to heaven and realize that Allah is actually running the place. He's mad that you're a non-believer and says he gave you many hints that it was him and was infuriated when you mistoke them as signs of god. Now he's sending you to hell to be tortured for all eternity. Don't you think that's a little unfair?

[Criminal Rock]

Dear lord.... :rolleyes:

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
See, my view on god wanting everybody in is kinda like a life guard at the beach who's seeing somebody drown and instead og getting off his ass and rescuing them stands there and simply hopes that the victim will know what to do since he should know these things. Then when the victim drowns he blames it on him and says he did more than enough work, despite the fact that the victim's parents boldly said they were too busy to teach him and relied instead on the lifeguard.

Shit, there are peadophiles who try to resist their urge. Should we release them merely because they tried?



I think god's a saditistic shit he has the worst logic of any deity I might have ever heard and continually mistreats his children. If he exists, he's no better than any dictator of the 20th century.



Listen, I've never heard of non-christians suddenly waking up near the end of their life and realize that they've been following the wrong belief. Whatever religion they believe in, they likely got it from their parents. What if they study up on every other religion, and choose something like buddhism because the Bible and the Qu'Ran are full of incosistencies, promotions of cruelty, intolerance and genocide and happen to be full of absurd fantasy? Christians theories about how nature is so beautiful it simply must have had a creator can easily be credited to any other god.

Let me ask you something: what if you go to heaven and realize that Allah is actually running the place. He's mad that you're a non-believer and says he gave you many hints that it was him and was infuriated when you mistoke them as signs of god. Now he's sending you to hell to be tortured for all eternity. Don't you think that's a little unfair?


Let's get specific- most people are not interested in learning about God- they just want to talk about what THEY think He is and what good is that? My personal belief is that each person should take the time to look into what each of the religions teach and how much sense they make. I did that- I was raised Christian (I agree that people tend to beleive as their parents do) but my family were Christian in the most superficial way. They beleived but they didn't know why they believed and couldn't have told you anything about the bible.When I got to the point where I wanted to know stuff about God, I looked into all the religions that seemed to make some sense (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Budhist and anotheer one I can't remember the name of) Well, for one thing, the Muslim and Budhist religions were based on one man's testimony and that didn't carry too much weight with me personally. The Jewish and the Christain faith were based on the stories of hundreds of people and there were lots of prophecies and stuff that I found convincing. I looked at the teachings of Christ and I loved what he said and what he stood for. He was a man who looked past the obvious and saw to the heart of things and he was always personal and noticed the beauty in the unbeautiful. He is the one who spent time with the people that others steered clear of (prostitutes, tax collectors).

I ended up loving him and committing my life to him to the point of your last comment which I thought was a really good point- what if it turns out that God is the Muslim God and I am kept out cause I've been a Christian. I am so in love with Jesus and have firmly committed my life to him that I have placed my entire soul on him and if it turns out I was wrong I can live with that. But actually, I do know that my way is the right way so I am not afraid. I have done my studying and the more I do the more convinced I am that I have made the right decision.But my main point is that whatever anyone decides it should be a decison based on study and not just what they "think" it might be.

The interesting thing is that all the other religions recognize Jesus as a good man and that he was a great teacher so no one is smearing him even if they do not accept him as God.