Dismissing Kanye West's comments = "Who cares what those people think anyway?"

[The Postmaster General]

Kanye West gave ample reasons leading up to his statement "Bush doesn't like black people."

He isn't the first black person to have said that, and there is a large (don't know if it's majority) sement of the black population who has distrusted Bush's motives, and has spoke out again him. Kanye was speaking for this segment of the population.

To me, that seems like more of a cause of concern and discussion that debate. No matter how wrong, or out of line you think Kanye is - you can't deny that he didn't exactly just say "Doi Bush no like black people:" and that his comments were 'from out of nowhere'

When people act like Kanye doesn't know what he's talking about, or act like he had no reason to say that - Plain and simple, all you are saying is, "Who cares what those people think?"

I don't care whether or not Kanye was being polite or not, this isn't the etiquette forum, is it. It irks me to see so many people more concerned with the superficialities of the statement than the actual reasoning behind the statement. To me, it was pretty fucking obvious he wasn't just saying that for the hell of it, as evident by his emotional indicators. People just don't like hearing that people might not like their man Bush, but instead of trying to make Bush look good, they'd rather make people look like idiots just because they feel bad about the way they think they are being treated.

No respect, I tell ya.

The best part is that most people who are dismissing Kanye's comments are further perpetrating reasons for this group people to think no one cares about them. Because, face it, when they made an issue about something -- lots of people just acted like they didn't care about anything except the timing of the comment. Yeah, Bush might care about black people, but maybe just the ones who aren't upset and voicing issues.

[outsyder]

Kanye wouldn't say it without knowing something about it?

Come on. The man bitched for days because he thought he was screwed out of a Grammy. Seems to me his accusations come lightly.


Has he met George Bush? Does he know anything about the man?

There was a massive failure on all government parts to react to this situation, but because New Orleans is populated mainly by black people, the Bush administrations slow reaction was because old George "Doesn't care about black people"?

I'm trying to be moderate here, and I honestly cannot fathom how people can so quickly jump to conclusions.

If it at all means anything, his wife doesn't think so either.

http://edition.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/09/08/katrina.laurabush/index.html

[The Postmaster General]

You are missing my point.

I'm not explaining it well-enough, that's obvious because you aren't the only one.


I don't know if Bush likes black people - Kanye doesn't know either. That's a given. Kanye West probably doens't know George Bush, so he doens't know what's going on there.

But I bet he knows a lot of black people!

What I am bringing up is the fact that Kanye isn't the only black person who has said this. Maybe all those black people are wrong too - I don't know.

But it is obvious, it's a fact - that there are people that feel that way.

When you dismiss that they feel this way, you are making them think even more-so that no one cares.

outsyder - Imagine if you saw smoke coming from a building and ran in screaming "Your roof is on fire! Your roof is on fire!"

But everyone knows the roof isn't on fire - maybe they are having a BBQ on the roof.... But because you are screaming like a jackass, no onel listens to you, and no one pays attention to your reasoning about their being smoke on the roof, and thinks you are a jackass for talking about fire.

Wouldn't you feel like no one cared about what you have to say?

No imagine if you are a celebrity, and you are saying something that scores of people have said themselves. Then everyone starts saying that celebrity is a moron and doesn't know whta they are talking about.

Here you are, saying something that a lot of people say, and you are dismissed.

The consequence is what gets me -- Every single black person who thinks that Kanye was right, has never been told he was wrong. all they hera is that he is an idiot, and that no one is liatening to him.

Result: Every single person who agreed with Kanye, maybe because they don't know any better, now has more fuel to the fire.

What Kanye said could have been out of line, but acting like he just made it up off the top of his head is also out of line

It's kind of like when Michael Moore talks, sometimes I'm like "Okya calm down there guy" because he makes a lot of good points, but then he will do something so easy to target that everyone misses his points.

I think black people who feel bad about Bush might of had a poor spokeperson in Kanye West - maybe. But the point is, when he said that, they were all probably like "Yeah!"

But instead of showing these people the bright side that they aren't seeing, we just call their spokeman an idiot and move on with our lives. Then these people see that, and come to the obvious conclusion that we don't care what they think.

And Laura Bush is on the right track - thankfully! Although it's a bit obvious to call negative comments about your husband "disquesting" -- She is actually coming out and acknowledging many of the class and race distinctions that were brought out by this event. Yes, it's an ugly truth, and yes it is something we have to deal with and SHOULD deal with --- but just covering our ears and saying people are stupid IS NOT the way to deal with issues.

When Kanye does it, it is wrong -- but it seems to me that when we do it, it's some how worse --- Kind of like seeing an accident in the road, and steering into it.

[outsyder]

Yes, I can see to how that would contribute to a downward spiral of reactions. I think the issue should be addressed. The fact that Bush went down there to help is nice but yeah, the issue needs to be resolved.

[The Postmaster General]

outsyder - delete the messages from your mailbox -- don't forget to erase "sent messages" too.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Kanye West said "George Bush doesn't care about black people" it's a little different.

I don't see the point.

I also will never take anything someone like Kanye West says seriously. There's smart men like Russel Simmons and then there's fucking retards like Kanye West and Eminem. Guess who gets mopre attention?

[The Postmaster General]

Actually, the way you worded it there - I don't see that as being part of the problem I'm worried about. You stated with some well versed stuff why you weren't listening to him. That's much more respectful to the people West was speaking 'on behalf of' than just being like "He had no right!" or "Bush loves black people! He has them present at BBQs quite often."

You are attacking Kanye and not his message, I guess. Not that you agree or disagree, but the way you said it didn't come across in a way I think would put the other side on the defensive (or offensive in this case, maybe).

Yeah, a large part of it isn't swapping insult for insult, I guess.

Thanks for the feedback.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
outsyder - delete the messages from your mailbox -- don't forget to erase "sent messages" too.


Done.

[The Postmaster General]

outsyder - hide in Kelly Ripa's closet, get some pictures of her in the bare, and post them in this thread.





(crosses fingers)

[outsyder]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
outsyder - hide in Kelly Ripa's closet, get some pictures of her in the bare, and post them in this thread.





(crosses fingers)



Uh . . . . what?

http://www.teevee.org/images/Kelly_Ripa_in_LHJ.jpg

[Lynn7]

The problem with Kanye's statment was that he did not give any evidence for his accusations. He just said something without backing it up.

And it is not enough to give bad evidence, it has to be good evidence. It can't be that "he hates black people becasue help did not come fast enough"-too generalized and it discounts every other factor and every other person who was involved (including the Democratic Governor).

Good evidence would be if h efound out that Bush had told officials not to help the victims becasue they were black or poor- but that did not happen.

Bush's MO is that he knows he is not an expert in everey field and he delegates and TRUSTS that the people who are in the jobs know what is best to do. He is no expert on levees or even on the New Orleans region or the state of Louisiana. He knows better than to butt in where there are people who are much more in the know. He has never acted any differently with any other group of people- it his business philosphy.

[KcMsterpce]

I think the biggest problem(s) with Kane's statements is that he's monstrously inarticulate almost to the point where one should feel pity for him. Regardless, there wouldn't have been enough time for him to make valid complaints during that small of an airtime even if he COULD string several proper sentences together, and most important of all...
THAT WAS NOT THE RIGHT TIME AND PLACE TO DO SUCH A THING.

I undrestand if he's mad, but he should have found a better venue to express his opinions. Instead, he decided to disregard the show's efforts of sending relief to those in need, and comes across as a complete dick in the process.
So much for contributing to charity, huh? I say "get off your fucking soapbox, asshole!!"

Bush isn't the sole person to blame for this snafu, either.

[The Postmaster General]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynn7
The problem with Kanye's statment was that he did not give any evidence for his accusations. He just said something without backing it up.


So if he'd said, "Bush doesn't like black people, hadn't you all seen Fahrenheit 9/11!!?"

You are saying you'd have no problem with his statement.

That's doubtful - If Kanye gave reasons, all you'd be doing is tearing those up, and it would just be taking you longer to explain why you aren't listening to him.



Bush's MO is that he knows he is not an expert in everey field and he delegates and TRUSTS that the people who are in the jobs know what is best to do. He is no expert on levees or even on the New Orleans region or the state of Louisiana. He knows better than to butt in where there are people who are much more in the know. He has never acted any differently with any other group of people- it his business philosphy.


The problem with your statement is that you are addressing it to the wrong people. You should be addressing it toward the people with the opinion that you need more evidence before accepting. Those are the ones who you have the problem with. No one has really taken the time to talk to this group in that manner, and instead just sort of blow off their comments as being out-of-line, impolite, and a bunch of other shit they don't care too much about, when they are mad and trying to be heard.

Maybe you would have had less problems with Kanye's comments had he just told Bush to go "Fuck yourself!" ;)

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by KcMsterpce
I think the biggest problem(s) with Kane's statements is that he's monstrously inarticulate almost to the point where one should feel pity for him. Regardless, there wouldn't have been enough time for him to make valid complaints during that small of an airtime even if he COULD string several proper sentences together, and most important of all...
THAT WAS NOT THE RIGHT TIME AND PLACE TO DO SUCH A THING.

I undrestand if he's mad, but he should have found a better venue to express his opinions. Instead, he decided to disregard the show's efforts of sending relief to those in need, and comes across as a complete dick in the process.
So much for contributing to charity, huh? I say "get off your fucking soapbox, asshole!!"

Bush isn't the sole person to blame for this snafu, either.


I don't have a problem with people thinking Kanye is whatever. My beef is with people acting like he's just making this stuff up, or acting like he is only speaking for himself.

It's somewhat like pulling the wool over your eyes to dismiss that no one else feels the what Kanye stated is fact.

In other words, I'm not disagreeing with what you are saying, KC, nor do I find what you are saying to conflict with my stand on people who brush Kanye off based solely on what he said. Your problem, that you stated, has more to do with him just being a shit head, or whatever you want to call him. My problem is with people not recognizing the shit head is speaking for lots of other people who aren't necessarily shit heads (they didn't hijack a relief)

[Lynn7]

Citing the movie FArnheit 9-11 would probably be exactly what he is referring to when he makes these accustaions about Bush and Katrin.It all has to do with politics and nothing to do with Katrina and that is the problem I have with it. Bush is not in charge of the hurricane in Louisiana nor is he in charge of the eartchquakes or the tornadoes or the fire drills at our public schools and to call him a racist becasue of things not running smoothly is so unfair. I hope that at some point Kanye will feel the sting of someone casting unfair accusations upon him so he can know what it feels like.

Usher has come out publically and said that although Kanye had the right to say what he did that he used bad judgemnet because now is the time for the country to pull together.

[The Postmaster General]

Yes, and just because you disagree with Kanye doesn't mean you aren't doing the exact same thing he is.

Kanye said Bush doesn't like black people, and in another thread here, you said the people who didn't evacuate NO should have been deemed Mentally Retarded.

It's all about saying the wrong, offensive thing for the sake of politics.

And as is the entire point I'm making with this thread - Just because you said something offensive, or at the wrong time - that doesn't mean you or Kanye don't have important points you are trying to make.

[Lynn7]

I don'tthink my comment was offensive- anyone who is told the world is about to collapse, run for cover and does not do it is mentally "challenged" imo. And don't go all pc on me becasue my sister-in-law is mentally retarded and so are a few other people who I have been happy to know in my life. Actually, they listened when someone told them they were in danger so maybe it is wrong for me to use their diagnosis on people who didn't care to leave.

[Lynn7]

Of course here is an example of two people whose idiocy affected the lives of others- is idiot an OK term to use cause that is a medical diagnosis too ;)

La. Nursing Home Owners Charged in Deaths
Sep 13 6:47 PM US/Eastern


By DOUG SIMPSON
Associated Press Writer


BATON ROUGE, La.


The husband-and-wife owners of a nursing home near New Orleans were charged Tuesday with negligent homicide in the deaths of 34 people during the flooding unleashed by Hurricane Katrina.

The case represents the first major prosecution to come out of the disaster.

The owners of St. Rita's Nursing Home in Chalmette "were asked if they wanted to move (the patients). They did not. They were warned repeatedly that this storm was coming," Louisiana Attorney General Charles Foti said.

"In effect, their inaction resulted in the deaths of these patients," Foti said.

Salvador A. Mangano and his wife, Mable, surrendered and were jailed on 34 counts of negligent homicide. Each count carries up to five years in prison.

The attorney general said he is also investigating the discovery of more than 40 corpses at flooded-out Memorial Medical Center, in New Orleans' Uptown section.

The victims at St. Rita's died Aug. 29, the day the hurricane hit, and on Sept. 6, at least 14 unrecognizable bodies were still inside the nursing home, the New York Times reported last week.

St. Bernard Parish Councilman Ricky Melerine said the water rose 3 feet in 15 minutes that morning and then even faster, the Times said.

Several men tried to rescue the nursing home's residents by floating them out on mattresses, and others were able to walk to a school, the Times said. In all, the home had about 60 residents.

There were apparent efforts to fight the incoming water inside St. Rita's. A table was nailed against a window and a couch was pushed up against a door, the Times said. There was also evidence that water had reached the roof.

The owners had an evacuation plan as required under state law and a contract with an ambulance service to evacuate the patients, but they did not call the company, Foti said.

They also turned down an offer from St. Bernard Parish officials who asked if the nursing home wanted help evacuating, he said. The home is about 10 miles southeast of New Orleans in an area of heavy devastation.

Foti said the bodies have not all been identified and he was not sure how many of the victims were patients or staff.

"They had a duty and a standard of care to people who could not care for themselves," Foti said of the owners. "If you or I decided we are going to stay, we do it of our own free will. ... The people at the nursing home don't have that choice."

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Actually, they listened when someone told them they were in danger so maybe it is wrong for me to use their diagnosis on people who didn't care to leave.


Exactly! That's not what that means- you know better, and so do I, but lots of people don't.

It's not about being PC, it's about using the proper terminology. If you weren't a registered nurse, I wouldn't have mentioned it - even after you'd asked.

But enough about vocabulary, back to the topic -

I would have definately liked to of seen those people placed "under arrest" - detained and moved to a safe location. Like I said, they actually did this to people on Sanibel Island. I've said that I think maybe 15 times, and I still don't think anyone gets what I mean when I'm saying rich elderly men were hauled out by police and placed in "paddy wagons" - It's odd that they didn't do the same thing to the people in New Orleans.

And this should have been the job of the federal government, IMO - because state and local government officials were too busy going "OH SHIT! MY HOUSE IS UNDER WATER!"

That's one thing alot of people are ignoring - the state police - many of them were turning in badges. There was no one left except to go outside the local level, and possibly state, considering the whole state was effected.

[Criminal Rock]

This is something I don't understand... aren’t their other cities besides New Orleans that are completely wiped out? I mean, leveled to the dirt. Nothing. Nat-ah. At least New Orleans still has their geography, where some of these other cities are completely gone. Have you guys heard anything about that?

[The Postmaster General]

Yeah, Alabama looks like matchsticks.

The difference though is that NO erupted into chaos - people trapped, massive flooding, lootings, all the state and local officals who walked off the job (cause they were victims too) ....

Alabama is one example, but it is exactly what I dealt with in Florida last year. I thought that was horrible, but it was nothing like New Orleans. The main difference being is that in a place like Alabama, as soon as the storm passes, you can start rebuilding and getting back on your feet. In New Orleans, many people were like, 'Oh my god! How long will this go on?" and couldn't do anything until the water cleared out.

But yeah - I think I know what you are touching on -- Lots of other good places got it really bad, and no one is really thinking about them. I've mentioned that several times in several threads, but no one seemed to think about it.

[Lynn7]

Well it's probably because the racial element was brought up but it might also be because of the levees. Brian Williams is going to show an investigative report tonight on where the levee money really went and it shows beautiful fountains. We'll see.

The attorney general of LA was on today and he said the people in the nursing home had plenty of time to evacuate- he said they were approached on Friday and Saturday I think. Two days anyway- he said the first day was not mandatory and the next day was mandatory and there were even buses sent but they declined to send the patients. They have evacuated before successfully but I guess this time decided not to do it.

As far as mandatory evacs go I have read that they are not legal in US that you cna't force anyone to leave. I don't know if it's true but it sounds strange- why say mandatory if you can't enforce it?

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
As far as mandatory evacs go I have read that they are not legal in US that you cna't force anyone to leave. I don't know if it's true but it sounds strange- why say mandatory if you can't enforce it?


Back home, they'd arrest people who wouldn't get off the islands. I always questioned the Constitutionality of it, but I'd never heard about any rulings on it, or any cases about it. They have the right to remove you from immediate danger -- I've seen it on COPS so many times: Some drunk guy with his truck stuck in a flood zone or something, and he's resisting leaving, so they're like "Okay buddy let's go" Then the cop talks about how if they hadn't gotten him out of there, he'd of been killed or something. Of course this was on public roads, so that's a diffrence.

I'd heard of it being done quite often, though - never about it not being allowed.

[Criminal Rock]

I don't think they wanted another Gaza incident if you ask me. It seems like that’s what they where hinting at.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Tai Mai Jew
I don't think they wanted another Gaza incident if you ask me. It seems like that’s what they where hinting at.


Whoa.

I thought me making 9/11 comparisons was off-base, but compared to Gaza... I don't know about that.

[echo_bravo]

Gawd, we are still discussing this overrated piece of shit?

Sighs

Oh well, I will humor myself in further discussing his "brave3" and "gusty" comments.

Kayne West played the race card PLAIN and SIMPLE! He DID make a blatantly ignorant statement during a fucking chartiy fundraiser. All this motherfucker had to do was give out the number for Red Cross donations. Instead this little arrogant fuck uses the camera/ air time to get his own personal agenda out. Fucking disgusting

But it is obvious, it's a fact - that there are people that feel that way.

Wow, so that makes it right?! There are people that feel that blacks should of gotten the fuck out of there, does that make them right? Of course not! Just because other people agree with Kayne's ignorant statemant doesnt mean shit. I also feel sorry for such ignorant people.

Also Bubba, do you know how outright WRONG it is to call someone racist and completely base it off nothing? You cant just fucking go around and call people racist or that they "dont care about black people". YOu lose all crediblity and respect.

Its times like these we need to come together and work through this.

[The Postmaster General]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by echo_bravo
Also Bubba, do you know how outright WRONG it is to call someone racist and completely base it off nothing? You cant just fucking go around and call people racist or that they "dont care about black people". YOu lose all crediblity and respect.

Its times like these we need to come together and work through this.


I agree - that's why I take issue with the fact that the comment wasn't based off nothing. He gave pretty solid reasoning for the conclusion he came to --- Maybe he pin-pointed the wrong person, oh well. But he clearly stated the racial injustices he and others were witnessing in the media, the responses, etc.

Had he not given any reasons, I'd be agreeing with you 100% instead of a partial percentage. That's what I don't understand in your arguement. Maybe Kanye came to the wrong conclusion -- but to say he gave no indication of WHY he said what he said --- To me, that seems ill-informed.

I agree that it's times like this people need to come together. But when someone gives a huge lists of reasons why they feel a certain way, and are only met with the response "You are so blatantly wrong" --- That's going to do less for bringing people together than just swallowing pride, accepting the fact (?) that Bush probably isn't racist, and listening to WHY he was called racist.

There is some abstract reasoning here that you aren't picking up on - I can see your side totally - YES! People should not be accussed of things they didn't do. That's a very obvious statement.

Imagine is money was missing, and only one person was present when it came up missing. And you said, "Hey, you stole that money."

And that person responds - "How dare you call me a theif! I've never stolen anything in my life. You are so ignorant!"

Are you just going to be like, "Wow! I guess they really didn't take that money! I must be wrong!"

Are the black people hwo think Bush is racist going to suddenly go "Wow! Look how upset people got at us for accusing Bush of racism! we must be wrong!"

You are the one saying we all need to come together, and maybe one side is wrong and one side isn't --- But clearly I want to be one of the people that drops our ego and pride and says "Okay, I see were the racist comment came from. I guess I have to resort to explaining things a bit. That's going to be the only way we are going to come together.

You seem to want to be on the side that's saying, "The racist thing was uncalled for. I'm not talking to these people. They don't deserve my time or effort."

And I can respect that too, as long as you understand exactly what you are accomplishing.



Gawd, we are still discussing this overrated piece of shit?

Sighs

Don't play hate. No one's twisting your arm here.



(This BubbaStrangelove Message was 2707 characters out of the 20,000 maximum allowed characters on these boards. Characters contained in this disclaimer were not counted for reasons of appeasing the Zog)