No Child Left Behind... or Left Alive?

[Joshmo]

"As if a cavern was suddenly hollowed;
And the Piper advanced and the children followed,
And when all were in to the very last,
The door in the mountain-side shut fast."

- Robert Browning, "The Pied Piper of Hamelin"

Informative piece:

http://www.antiwar.com/orig/maloney.php?articleid=7382

[Mr-Blonde]

And the civil liberties in this country continue to erode under the Bush administration. The more time that goes by it seems the more facistic this administration gets.

I can't wait for them to start drafting. When that happens you are going to see civil unrest and protesting that'll make the 1960's look tame in comparison. People might be lethargic about what's been happening so far, but when it directly affects them or their families people will start to spring to action. Unfortunately things will get worse before they get any better.

[Lynn7]

I think we'll be heading out of Iraq pretty soon. The police and military are getting into place and then they will be able to take over. Becasue they are still working on the formation of government among so many factions, they are at a tender time right now.

The draft will come when we come under severe attack and no one will mind signing up becasue it will be for our country's very survival. Luckily, our military will have had experience fighting with these guys and then we will be glad we had gone to Iraq.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I think we'll be heading out of Iraq pretty soon. The police and military are getting into place and then they will be able to take over. Becasue they are still working on the formation of government among so many factions, they are at a tender time right now.

I distinctly remember a news snippet from The Daily Show stating that like only 3 out of 106 battalions or armymen or some such number is ready. The U.S. army is way better equipped than that and they have their hands full already with the insurgence (who'll cut throught the Iraq army when American forces leave faster than you can say "South Vientman in '75).

Oh, and althought Bush would love to stay in Iraq forever, I'm very certain that America will at some point or another be forced out of the country.

Originally posted by Lynn7
The draft will come when we come under severe attack and no one will mind signing up becasue it will be for our country's very survival. Luckily, our military will have had experience fighting with these guys and then we will be glad we had gone to Iraq.

Speaking of Vietnam, they weren't a threat to you and you attacked them without any provocation (to America anyway). However Bush's approval are dangerously low and there's a massive deficit, so I think he's painted his way into a corner on this one, as his dream of conquering more brown countries is now out of the question.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Daily Show's fact check staff is top notch.

[BakeTheMooCow]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Daily Show's fact check staff is top notch.

If you've watched the show even once, you know they don't pull stuff out of their asses. All reports are accompanied by snippets of reputable news sources. In this case, the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/21/international/middleeast/21military.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=a7ded191769f385b&ex=1279598400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss)

"Level 1 units are able to plan, execute and sustain independent counterinsurgency operations. By late last month, American commanders said, only 3 of the 107 military and paramilitary battalions had achieved that standard."

Maybe you need a fact check staff of your own.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
If you've watched the show even once, you know they don't pull stuff out of their asses. All reports are accompanied by snippets of reputable news sources. In this case, the New York Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/21/international/middleeast/21military.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5090&en=a7ded191769f385b&ex=1279598400&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss)

"Level 1 units are able to plan, execute and sustain independent counterinsurgency operations. By late last month, American commanders said, only 3 of the 107 military and paramilitary battalions had achieved that standard."

Maybe you need a fact check staff of your own.


Yeah, but to rebutte that point, it's the New York Times.

[BakeTheMooCow]

Originally posted by outsyder
Yeah, but to rebutte that point, it's the New York Times.

What is it about the words "according to a newly declassified Pentagon assessment" that you don't get?

This is coming straight from the top. Not Bill Keller and Jon Stewart giggling and making shit up on an acid trip.

Jesus fucking christ.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by BakeTheMooCow
What is it about the words "according to a newly declassified Pentagon assessment" that you don't get?

This is coming straight from the top. Not Bill Keller and Jon Stewart giggling and making shit up on an acid trip.

Jesus fucking christ.


Despite the fact that what the article said is probably true, the New York Times isn't fucking gospel.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by outsyder
Despite the fact that what the article said is probably true, the New York Times isn't fucking gospel.

So I take it any article you've ever posted here is likely not true?

[outsyder]

Originally posted by MacReady
So I take it any article you've ever posted here is likely not true?


What does that have to do with anything?

Considering the scandals that have been associated with the Times, it's not quite a rock solid publication.

[The Postmaster General]

Don't worry outsyder, I caught that you in slight jest with the comment.

It's obvious you were making a sly reference to Jayson Blair, and weren't totally debunking the article.

I remember that scandal like yesterday.

Ha! And who says that smoking pot effects your memory!!??

Holy Shit -- I'm watching E! Entertainment TV right now -- And Holy Shit!! Buckwheat got shot outside Rockefeller Plaza!!! Whoa! This is nuts!!

[Joshmo]

Yep, Jason Blair gave them a black eye. But one needs to see if the story is true instead of focusing on where it came from (to a point)

Yeah, the Times had Blair...

and Fox News has these folks harming their credibility:

Neil Cavuto: Said outright hes biased.. a NEWS SHOW

Brit Hume
Jon Gibson
O Reilly
Hannity

If one visits Media Matters they can see how Fox and sometimes CNN and MSNBC are out of control with spinning

Then theres Newmax with Carl Limbacher... he gives half stories and sometimes not all factual.. hes lazy

Drudge.. spins his stuff

Before making fun of the WHERE the story came from, see if the story has merit.

Dont just blow them all off, but see if what they say is true..cause it is so much fun catching them in B.S when they arent tellling the truth.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm not discrediting the article - it sounds pretty dead on to me, and I have no reason to disbelieve it.

I just don't think outsyder was totally smashing it, maybe playing a bit of devil's advocate on that one, or just adding another perspective. He's not the only one who now speaks up when the Times comes into question. The point of these forums is to hear other people's views while sharing your own, and in this case, his view was that The Times isn't credible.

Really, he made a pretty obvious and called-for statement, and everyone else sort of took his comments a bit too far, IMO.

I have absolutely no problem with people providing counter-arguements, EVEN if it's only for the sake of arguing I took it in outsyder's case. Either you take the arguement, and go with it, you ignore it, but freaking out about it Napoleon Dynamite-style isn't very becoming. (ie. "I can't believe you said that! GAWD!")

Of course I'm very aware that opinions are like assholes in that most no one likes to hear from anyone else's but their own.

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by Mr-Blonde


I can't wait for them to start drafting. When that happens you are going to see civil unrest and protesting that'll make the 1960's look tame in comparison. People might be lethargic about what's been happening so far, but when it directly affects them or their families people will start to spring to action. Unfortunately things will get worse before they get any better.

We will pull out of Iraq before it comes to that. A draft would destroy the republican party. They are not stupid.

However Bush's approval are dangerously low and there's a massive deficit, so I think he's painted his way into a corner on this one, as his dream of conquering more brown countries is now out of the question.

Oh, yeah I forget Bush hates those minorities. :rolleyes:

[MacReady]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
Oh, yeah I forget Bush hates those minorities. :rolleyes:

I was being sarcastic.:rolleyes:

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
[BOh, and althought Bush would love to stay in Iraq forever, I'm very certain that America will at some point or another be forced out of the country.

Speaking of Vietnam, they weren't a threat to you and you attacked them without any provocation (to America anyway). However Bush's approval are dangerously low and there's a massive deficit, so I think he's painted his way into a corner on this one, as his dream of conquering more brown countries is now out of the question. [/B]

Why would Bush want to stay in Iraq forever. I think he would like to pull out but knows if we do the country will collapse in chaos and could be a bigger threat to us in the longrun.All themen who have died will have died in vain. He is doing the right thing: the hard thing.

The time of Vietnam was a time when our country was terrified of the communistic spread and they kept getting closer and closer to us. They feared that if the Communists took over Veitnam they would be way too close to us. The problem with that war is that the politicians were running it instead of the miltitary men. And the politicians are trying to get involved again now.

Are we saying we can never go in and help another countrybe cause of the Vietnam fiasco... because it gets messy? What will our world become?

[Thrizzle]

The president made a mistake in invading Iraq, but leaving anytime soon would be an even bigger one. Hell, leaving within the next couple of years would be a huge mistake. The country is a powder keg waiting to go off if/when we leave.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
Why would Bush want to stay in Iraq forever. I think he would like to pull out but knows if we do the country will collapse in chaos and could be a bigger threat to us in the longrun.All themen who have died will have died in vain. He is doing the right thing: the hard thing.

I say it because his determination to go in there was almost on a supernatural level. I seriously doubt the insurgencies will die down by 2008, so a voluntary retreat sounds unlikely. There would be a civil war if we left and it's all too likely the democratic Iraq will be lost be as the war goes on further we might start seeing war crimes occuring by American soldiers who've reached the end of their ropes, and the eventually downward spiral when the Iraqi people get tired of the occupation and will likely start sympathising (if not flat out aiding) the insurgents. Your "let's keep killing people so the the people who died before won't have been in vain" is ridiculous. Have you ever thought that those people might have died in vain thus making it even dumber to continue making living people die in vain.

Originally posted by Lynn7
The time of Vietnam was a time when our country was terrified of the communistic spread and they kept getting closer and closer to us. They feared that if the Communists took over Veitnam they would be way too close to us. The problem with that war is that the politicians were running it instead of the miltitary men. And the politicians are trying to get involved again now.

The politicians started that war and the politicians started this one. How many people in the army prior to Bush's stated they wished to go to Iraq? What avout the fact that now both governments of the time have been caught telling the people re-assuring lies that later proved to be empty. There's also the issue where alot of people continue to rally against the war's existence.

Originally posted by Lynn7
Are we saying we can never go in and help another countrybe cause of the Vietnam fiasco... because it gets messy? What will our world become?

Choose your battle carefully. Interference from outside countries during troublesome times can often make things worse.

[The Postmaster General]

Bush may very well be building off the Carter Doctrine that says we will invade for the sake of protecting oil.

I just find it odd that the two largest invasions in oil baring countries since the Carter Doctrine was put into effect occurred under the reign of 'oil presidents'....

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by MacReady
I was being sarcastic.:rolleyes:

Yeah but you make the same sarcastic comment over and over again. I wouldn't be surprised if you believed it.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady
I say it because his determination to go in there was almost on a supernatural level. I seriously doubt the insurgencies will die down by 2008, so a voluntary retreat sounds unlikely. There would be a civil war if we left and it's all too likely the democratic Iraq will be lost be as the war goes on further we might start seeing war crimes occuring by American soldiers who've reached the end of their ropes, and the eventually downward spiral when the Iraqi people get tired of the occupation and will likely start sympathising (if not flat out aiding) the insurgents. Your "let's keep killing people so the the people who died before won't have been in vain" is ridiculous. Have you ever thought that those people might have died in vain thus making it even dumber to continue making living people die in vain.



I['m not saying let's keep killing people- I'm saying if we pull out before they are ready to defend themselves it will be a disaster to all and then our soliers will have died in vain. The Kurdish people were slaughtered when we pulled out too soon the last time. They weren't sure whether to trust us again. Our word as American's is very important. It's like a firend who says he will stand by you but at the last moment when the heat is on says "I changed my mind- I cna't take the heat" Who needs people like that in their lives.Give me a friend who will stay with me that I can count on.

This society is just way to selfish and self serving. Sometimes instead of admiring the soldiers who gave their lives for a cause it becomes, oh, THAT was stupid, I'D never give up my life for anyone. Oh well.

By the way, if the Iraqi people wanted us out I'd be the first to say let's get out of there but for now the new government is begging for us to stay and I think we should stay until they are comfortable with us leaving.

[Mr-Blonde]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
We will pull out of Iraq before it comes to that. A draft would destroy the republican party. They are not stupid.

Maybe they'll just start hiring mercaneries when they run out of manpower. That sounds like a Republican solution. Or they could start a foreign legion. :rolleyes:

[outsyder]

Originally posted by Mr-Blonde
Or they could start a foreign legion. :rolleyes:

That's too close to being French.