Subway plot exposed

[Lynn7]

originalreport
Police Investigate New York Subway Terror ThreatSecurity Increased Following Possible Plot Information
Police patrols in the New York subway system will be increased while authorities investigate a possible terror plot. (Mary Altaffer/AP Photo)

Oct. 6, 2005 — The New York Police Department and FBI are investigating a "credible" tip that 19 operatives have been deployed to the city to place bombs in the subway, and security in the subways has been increased.

While the police department is taking the threat seriously, it is also urging the public not to be alarmed because – while the source is credible – the information has not been verified.

Police Investigate New York Subway Terror Threat
Investigation Continues: Security Breach at the White House
Wandering Shark
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg said this was the most specifically detailed threat made against the subway system, and he urged New Yorkers to be vigilant.

"I wanted to assure New Yorkers that we have done and we will continue to do everything we can to protect the city," Bloomberg said. "We will spare no resource. We will spare no expense."

According to sources in intelligence, emergency services and police headquarters, the intelligence community developed information that the threat may have involved pharmacists from Iraq coming to New York for some kind of chemical attack targeting the subways.

Three insurgents, one or more of whom are pharmacists, were arrested during a raid by a U.S. military and intelligence community team, sources said, and one of those caught disclosed the threat. Because it slipped out during the arrest, the plot was deemed credible.

After several days of work, sources said, the NYPD became increasingly concerned because it was unable to discredit the initial source and additional information from the source.

The 19 operatives were to place improvised explosive devices in the subways using briefcases, according to two sources. Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said officers will continue to check bags, briefcases, luggage and strollers, and additional uniformed and undercover officers will be riding in individual subway cars.


Increased Security

The police are deploying additional officers, dogs and heavy weapons teams in subways and commuter rail terminals, sources said.

Department of Homeland Security sources told ABC News they are very doubtful the threat information is credible, though NYPD sources said disturbing information on the possible threat continues to come in.

Rep. Peter King, R-N.Y., chairman of the House Homeland Security Committee, told The Associated Press, "Obviously, this is a significant threat."

__________________________________________________ ____


This is what I have been saying- these terrorists aim for the innocents. Their methods are despicable- they aim to terrorize in order to take us down.

[The Postmaster General]

I hope it's a hoax.

Tis better to be terrified by a hoax than by an actual threat.

[Mr-Blonde]

19 operatives? Why the fuck are there 19? Why not 17 or 20?

A strange coincidence that it's the same number that carried out the 9/11 attacks. It sounds like bullshit to me. A way to get everyone to rally behind the war on terror and improve Bush's lagging poll numbers.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by Mr-Blonde
19 operatives? Why the fuck are there 19? Why not 17 or 20?

A strange coincidence that it's the same number that carried out the 9/11 attacks. It sounds like bullshit to me. A way to get everyone to rally behind the war on terror and improve Bush's lagging poll numbers.



Because there's no way terrorists would ever want to attack New York City. Right?

[Mr-Blonde]

Originally posted by outsyder
Because there's no way terrorists would ever want to attack New York City. Right?

Bush needs a distraction from the spy scandal in White House.

Lucky we kept all the terrorists pinned down in Iraq so they can't come here.

What's a "credible threat", anyway? Do they say "we really mean it this time"?

Legitimate question: how many terrorist attacks have occurred after a law enforcement agency has received a "credible threat"? To the best of my knowledge, in the last 10 years they've all been surprise. Why would they call ahead?

[outsyder]

The credible threat was called in by people who found evidence that there was indeed a 'credible threat' to the NY subway system. Not the people intending to do it.


That's the problem with terrorist activity (despite the obvious tragedy). When you successfully prevent something bad from happening, most of the time, in order to maintain infiltrated in the terrorist network, the knowledge cannot be made public. And so when something bad happens, the public assumes that the government is completely incompetant of protecting them.

[Mr-Blonde]

But the problem is also that this administration is guilty of crying wolf on far too many occasions:

USA Today 5/10/5 (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-05-10-ridge-alerts_x.htm?POE=NEWISVA)

The Bush administration periodically put the USA on high alert for terrorist attacks even though then-Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge argued there was only flimsy evidence to justify raising the threat level, Ridge now says.

Ridge, who resigned Feb. 1, said Tuesday that he often disagreed with administration officials who wanted to elevate the threat level to orange, or "high" risk of terrorist attack, but was overruled...

[Lynn7]

I want to hear about things even if they don't turn out to be true. I want the right to decide whether or not the threat is worth taking or not- I don't want the bureaucrats to decide whether or not to tell me.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I want to hear about things even if they don't turn out to be true. I want the right to decide whether or not the threat is worth taking or not- I don't want the bureaucrats to decide whether or not to tell me.

No, you just want be frightened and to be given a false sense of security that Bush is single-handely wiping out terrorism.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by MacReady
No, you just want be frightened and to be given a false sense of security that Bush is single-handely wiping out terrorism.


So people should be kept in the dark about this sort of thing?


There is at least one nuclear missle pointed at the closest major city to you, and chances are you will be vaporized should it ever reach its target.

Now, that may be scary, but it's the truth. You can shit your pants or ignore it. The fact is that people should know about these things.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by outsyder
So people should be kept in the dark about this sort of thing?


There is at least one nuclear missle pointed at the closest major city to you, and chances are you will be vaporized should it ever reach its target.

Now, that may be scary, but it's the truth. You can shit your pants or ignore it. The fact is that people should know about these things.

Just like people needed to know that if we let North Vietnam win back in the late sixties apparently all of southern asia (meybe even Australia) would be under communist rule and thus we should do whatever authority tells us?

How about the fact that more people are killed by Hippos or jellyfish than terrorists per year?

Seriously man, it's like what Seinfeld said of putting wanted posters at the post office for customers to see. Okay, there's a terrorist ploting something sinister somewhere. What am I gonna do? Better yet, why don't the people in charge simply take care of it instead of gawking at it and scaring everybody?

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by outsyder
Now, that may be scary, but it's the truth. You can shit your pants or ignore it. The fact is that people should know about these things.

I'm really in the middle of the road on this one. If people DON'T know what's going on, they assume nothing is going on, or nothing is being done.

If people DO know what's going on, there is mass hysteria.

It's really all damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[outsyder]

Originally posted by MacReady
Just like people needed to know that if we let North Vietnam win back in the late sixties apparently all of southern asia (meybe even Australia) would be under communist rule and thus we should do whatever authority tells us?

How about the fact that more people are killed by Hippos or jellyfish than terrorists per year?

Seriously man, it's like what Seinfeld said of putting wanted posters at the post office for customers to see. Okay, there's a terrorist ploting something sinister somewhere. What am I gonna do? Better yet, why don't the people in charge simply take care of it instead of gawking at it and scaring everybody?

The point is you can do as you please with what information you are exposed to. The post office thing? Please. Getting information out there about criminals is what helps America's Most Wanted arrest and convict some of the most dangerous people in society.

BTW, thanks for the info about the Hippos and Jellyfish. I'll watch out for those motherfuckers next time I hit the beach or an African watering hole. Seriously. Information is good. Now I won't be so stupid as to poke a hungry, hungry Hippo.;)

[MacReady]

Originally posted by outsyder
The point is you can do as you please with what information you are exposed to. The post office thing? Please. Getting information out there about criminals is what helps America's Most Wanted arrest and convict some of the most dangerous people in society.

No, it's America's Most Wanted that helps. I don't see how everyday folks down in the states are busting crime thanks to an irrelevant poster.

Look, these annoucement go all over the net and around the U.S. Let me ask you something: why should somebody in denver need to know the goings on of what's appening in Georgia terror wise? Why not simply quarantine and warn people in the designated areas instead?

[outsyder]

Originally posted by MacReady
No, it's America's Most Wanted that helps. I don't see how everyday folks down in the states are busting crime thanks to an irrelevant poster.

There's usually a phone number on the poster along with something that says "IF YOU HAVE ANY INFORMATION LEADING TO THE WHEREABOUTS OF SUCH AND SUCH, PLEASE CALL . . . "

And how does America's Most Wanted help? By getting out information on criminals and fielding tips that are a result of people becoming aware of said criminals.


Look, these annoucement go all over the net and around the U.S. Let me ask you something: why should somebody in denver need to know the goings on of what's appening in Georgia terror wise? Why not simply quarantine and warn people in the designated areas instead?

Maybe they have relatives that live there. What does it matter if someone can have information not particularily relating to their immediate environment?

I live in Ottawa, and so because of that I shouldn't be aware of Hurrcane Katrina?

[JohnTheHenchman]

Mac Ready, there are several suspected terrorists wanted in very close proximity of me. I'm talking within five miles of where I live. Maybe if you ever actually had to deal with this, you wouldn't be talking how you are right now.

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by MacReady
Look, these annoucement go all over the net and around the U.S. Let me ask you something: why should somebody in denver need to know the goings on of what's appening in Georgia terror wise? Why not simply quarantine and warn people in the designated areas instead?

There are a dozen good reasons, really. The only thing you need to do is expose the terror plot yet keep mass hysteria at an all-time low.

I like to know where my tax dollars are being spent, so I do prefer to get updates on Federal Intelligence nabbing someone.

[KcMsterpce]

Exposing discovered terrorist threats to the public vice keeping them secret is a very touchy process.

Remember, the more intelligence the public has on the knowledge of terrorist activites, the more the terrorists also know about how well our intelligence is/isn't working.

We hear a LOT less about what's actually being investigated/taken care of than what is publicized. It's better this way IMO, because that keeps those who mean harm from having as easy a time of becoming even more capable.

Not that I LIKE feeling as if our government isn't doing anything, but I also know first-hand that isn't the case. :p

[Lynn7]

KC- you make an excellent point but isn't it possible to say that there is a possibility of an attack without disclosing how they came upon this info? Like in this case it wasn't necessary to say that they caught some people who said this stuff. They can keep that to themselves if it keeps the terrorists from knowing how we are finding out.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Mac Ready, there are several suspected terrorists wanted in very close proximity of me. I'm talking within five miles of where I live. Maybe if you ever actually had to deal with this, you wouldn't be talking how you are right now.

So what do you do when you hear about this stuff? Do you avoid going out? Build a portable bomb shelter for when you go into subways? What?


I mean, how many terrorist attacks have ever taken place in New Jersey (that is where you live, right?) anyway?

[JohnTheHenchman]

How many terrorist attacks happened in New York before 1993?

Yeah, it's not like NJ's ports aren't extremely valuable to this country. Seriously, not to be rude but you know nothing that you're talking about.

Remember how one of the planes from 9/11 took off from NJ?

Remember all the stuff you heard and saw about suspected terrorists being in the area of a town that borders yours? Oh no, because I was the one who experiences that. Seriously, it's really safe for you up there. I'm so close to NYC that if a "suitcase nuke" was set off there, I'd end up dead.

Seriously. Stop talking about things you know nothing about. It kind of angers people who are legitimately afraid.

[MacReady]

Pfffft. Whatever. Be sacred or brave or angry if you want to be. I just think that terrorism is simply the '21st century boogeyman' just like communism was the '20th century boogeyman'. It dosen't affect my life in any way so I'll just leave it at that. I've simply stopped caring about those kinds of things.

[JohnTheHenchman]

The difference between communism and terrorism is we've actually been attacked by terrorists!

Seriously, great argument. I bet it's easy to be brave in the great white north. Swing by here some time and take a look at reality.

[MacReady]

Yeah, terrorism is an enemy that isn't being fought by conventional means and is being manipulated by authority to frighten and control populace, restrict thier right, and make idiotic wars easier to start under the cloak that you'll be fighting the enemy. No comparison here.

Have you ever wondered why we don't get attacked and you guys do?

[TheDeadWalk]

Originally posted by MacReady
Have you ever wondered why we don't get attacked and you guys do?

Because if terrorists attacked Canada then they'd just end up having to fight the U.S. anyways?

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by TheDeadWalk
Because if terrorists attacked Canada then they'd just end up having to fight the U.S. anyways?

TheDeadWalk, we have our differences but god damnit, I could not have said it better myself.

Macready, Communists never attacked our country. Terrorists have. If anything, this is more legitimate. Sure, it's the same thing. There's always something. But why do you care? You're not being attacked. I live in genuine fear. Not every day of my life, but I still worry. And you have a problem with that? You shouldn't.

I never want a terrorist attack to happen anywhere again, but if one did happen in Canada I bet you'd gain some perspective.

Or blame America.

[The Heart Collector]

In genuine fear? Last time I checked, the U.S. was attacked almost a half a decade ago, not fucking yesterday.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by MacReady

Have you ever wondered why we don't get attacked and you guys do?
If the terrorists eveer managed to disrupt our government and talke over our country, they would not be long in taking over yours. It's not as hard as it might seem-look at the disruption in New Orleans and that is when there are government agencies and military that can come in and help organize things- what if there were no agencies and the military was disrupted? Remember in NO the police all wen thome to take care of their families-it' slike I've said before - civilization is a thin veneer.

[Lynn7]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
In genuine fear? Last time I checked, the U.S. was attacked almost a half a decade ago, not fucking yesterday.

I remember when 9-11 happened that George W said at that time that people were going to soon forget but that he never would and I do see it happening- if it happened over a half a decade ago is a good way of distancing something and making it seem small. 9-11 was the date of a mass murder. We still talk about Jack the Ripper and Son of SAm and they just killed a few people. We should never forget the magnitude and the heinous nature of what happened that day. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it-famous saying.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by The Heart Collector
In genuine fear? Last time I checked, the U.S. was attacked almost a half a decade ago, not fucking yesterday.

Yes, because there's no possibility of it ever happening again!:rolleyes:

[outsyder]

Originally posted by MacReady
Have you ever wondered why we don't get attacked and you guys do?

Because terrorists like our open borders? Or simply hate the US more?


Seriously Mac, you can sit on your high temple of superiority and finger-wag at the States all you want, but when push comes to shove, they're our closest friends and largely responsible for supporting our economy. Like it or not. I find it disappointing that this country increasingly defines itself simply as "Not American."

And last time I checked, Osama had us on his naughty list too. I'm far from afraid, but we're not the untouchable shining light of the Western world.

[JohnTheHenchman]

And I agree with you on that point. In fact, using terrorism to keep the people scared is more effective, because it's something that hits a little closer to home. More so than communism ever could.

[MacReady]

Look, I wasn't trying to blame Americans. I think things like 9/11 came from government intereference and religious psychos. I don't think Canada has a moral high gound on America on this issue.

I still think the similarity between communism and terrorism stands as both are forces that the governement uses to terrify and people with the concept of a sudden attack.

[darchangel]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I 9-11 was the date of a mass murder. We still talk about Jack the Ripper and Son of SAm and they just killed a few people. We should never forget the magnitude and the heinous nature of what happened that day. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it-famous saying.


and apparently we didn't learn anything from Vietnam or we wouldn't be mass murdering people in Iraq now.

i'm sure the Iraqui people won't forget how many people we slaughtered either, as won't the Vietnamese, the people in Laos and Cambodia, the Koreans, the Iranians, the Japanese and lots of other people that i couldn't begin to mention all of...

maybe this is why terrorists attack the U.S. and not Canada, Mac. you don't hear a whole lot of stories about Canada dropping nuclear weapons on defenseless people in highly populated urban zones.

i'm not anti-American; i'm just sad that this is what we've come to.



Free Drinks and Breasty Hugs

~darchangel~

[MacReady]

I knew it. (http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/10/11/051011161056.wcrxlsol.html)

[Lynn7]

Your link is not working; however, I think it must be referring to the fact that the subway plot did not turn out to be real- I do not care. I still want to know if they think anything is going on. I do not want the government to make the decision of whether or not to tell me if there is a threat or not. I'll be content to have it be nothing later.

[TheSpleen]

The manipulation of fear by systems of power to discipline the domestic population has left a long and terrible trail of bloodshed and suffering which we ignore at our peril. There are many shocking illustrations in recent history, which I won't get into due to time constraints.

The timing of this recent subway "threat" is interesting - and not surprising. It happened the same day President Bush gave a very weak and predictable speech (as considered by even mainstream commentators), where he tried to drum up more support for his "war on terror". With his poll ratings still incredibly low, he must persuade the population to huddle under the umbrella of power, in fear that its way of life and destiny are under imminent threat…

Incidentally, the supposed threat, even several days after it was exposed publicly, remained uncorroborated, as the Department of Homeland Security, and NYC police commissioner reported. (1)

Critics are dismissed as “anti-American,” an interesting concept borrowed from the lexicon of totalitarianism. Or as seen elsewhere, simply told to "shut up" - that's much easier and cheaper than to just say "I don't agree with you" - an interesting paradox, since our freedom of speech is so revered (as it should be).

A general fundamental problem we have (as a society) is lack of skepticism. People have a tendency to look toward some great leader to save us from these "depraved opponents of civilization itself ", rather than ask simple, obvious questions. Here I'm quoting former Secretary of State George Schultz, who under Reagan helped run the first phase of the "war on terror". Why would they alert the public to this supposed threat? What purposes could it possibly serve? How is the information useful to the general population? For some, it certainly does provide a sense that our leaders are really acting tough, doing their job as thoroughly as possible, and so on. Nevermind why anyone would want to bomb the subway system in the first place.

A rather obvious consequence, is that it diverts the population from more important issues. Harriet Miers is facing fierce criticism. Karl Rove, Scooter Libby, and Ari Fleischer are all facing possible indictment - we don't want people talking about that stuff. And it's very effective, as this thread reveals. The doctrinal system is working exactly as it's supposed to. Orwell must be turning over, yet again.

If you go see a doctor because you have an infected sore on your arm, the doctor doesn't just glance at the wound and then put a bandaid on it, if he's a good doctor, anyway. He will try to see what the cause of the infection is, suggest a solution to remedy it, and make recommendations on how to prevent it from occurring again.

We can apply the same pragmatic reasoning to human affairs. Simply, if you care about problems (and preventing them from happening again), you look at their causes. This is so elementary that it almost seems silly to mention it.


(1) AP, Oct. 9, 2005. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051009/ap_on_re_us/nyc_subway

[Lynn7]

I know governments can cook up stuff to help them politically but I need hard evidence of this before I can even think about it; otherwise it is just conspiracy theroes to me and I discount them. From what I have seen from politicians is that they do not tend to stick together- they look out for themselves; therefore, I beleive the mayor of New York would not have stuck his political neck out on behalf of anyone. I think he beleived the threat was credible. Also, why would they reveal it was not a real threat so soon after saying it had merit- that would not be so great for the cause.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
I know governments can cook up stuff to help them politically but I need hard evidence of this before I can even think about it; otherwise it is just conspiracy theroes to me and I discount them.


Yeah, but isn't saying that people are plotting to blow up a subway ALSO a conspiracy theory?

[Lynn7]

No- it is based in reality- the reality of certain terrorist groups planning to destroy the structure of our country. There is evidence of them taking action against us and there are continual discoveries of information from these organization.Conspiracy theories tend to be based in imagination- not fact. If someone doesn't trust the government then it is automatically assumed that that government is planning elaborate deceptions to fool the people. These deceptions include people at all levels (FBI, CIA etc) I just don't think they could pull this off for verey long without being exposed and who would be willing to take that chance?

[The Postmaster General]

Yes, but just as there are people who are known to associate with terrorists who are feeding information to the media, saying that there is a conspiracy to blow up a subway - there are also people who are known to associate with government officals, saying that they are committing devious acts. That is where the conspiracy theory comes into play.

No one denies that there are not terrorists who want to trash us - that's why I take these sorts of threats seriously. I also take the fact that there are bad-willed politicans seriously too. We'll all be damned if the people stop keeping an eye on their government. We can't be so lazy, as not to ask questions. I'm my opinion, we should not elect presidents who are too lazy to answer those questions.

[QUENTIN]

Originally posted by Lynn7
No- it is based in reality- the reality of certain terrorist groups planning to destroy the structure of our country. There is evidence of them taking action against us and there are continual discoveries of information from these organization.Conspiracy theories tend to be based in imagination- not fact. If someone doesn't trust the government then it is automatically assumed that that government is planning elaborate deceptions to fool the people. These deceptions include people at all levels (FBI, CIA etc) I just don't think they could pull this off for verey long without being exposed and who would be willing to take that chance?

Lynn, do you believe Oswald acted alone?

[outsyder]

Originally posted by QUENTIN
Lynn, do you believe Oswald acted alone?


The government admitted the Kennedy assassination was most likely the work of a conspiracy. The Warren Committe was bullshit, but I suggest looking into the Report of the Select Committee on Assassinations of the US House of Representatives.

[The Postmaster General]

I'm sure it's all very easy to explain.


Maybe when these peopel were hearing the intelligence, they were also eating Kellogg's Raisin Bran Crunch.