What is conservatism to you?

[JohnTheHenchman]

I have the feeling that so many people associate things that aren't conservative with being conservative. Spill it!

[Grim H.]

lunacy.:D

[Lynn7]

I think of the word as a label that has been applied to a philosophy. I just see it as representing good sense in government. To me it is respecting people for the abilities and potentiol that they have and to expect that people will meet that potnetial through education. To help people who are really in a bad way especially thru the private community where they can get the real care they need (although I beleive the gov should provide financially for people who are elderly and sick. I think it menas that taxes should be kept to things that are necessary and they should not be used to increase power bases for politiciams.

[EVILxxx]

Small government. Low taxes. Little, or no interferance with the free market.

[Tuukka]

It's hard to define, since people who are conservatives themselves define it in very different way. But the way I see it:

Conservatism : Controlling others and forcing one's ideals to others.

...Of course that's by no means an accurate definition. Here's wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservatism

[outsyder]

Originally posted by Tuukka
...Of course that's by no means an accurate definition.

Pretty much, considering Communists were pretty good at doing that too. I think what you're referring to is fascism.



BTW, nice topic idea John.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Well Tuuka's definition is one of my reason's for starting it. I mean the conservative and liberal labels are used as insults these days, when behind both true causes there lies nobility. Are we really that lazy?

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by outsyder
Pretty much, considering Communists were pretty good at doing that too. I think what you're referring to is fascism.

There is no contradiction between being a communist or a conservative. Many communists are also conservative. These days in eastern european countries communists are commonly referred as conservative - They resent change and want to go back to old times, to the totalitarian goverment mode.

And fascism is not really what I'm thinking. Totalitarism fits the bill better, althought the terms of course overlap a great deal. About conservatism, here is a quote from wikipedia:

"Conservatism refers to political philosophies, ideologies, and political movements in opposition to change. Some conservatives favour the status quo. Many conservatives, however, look back to a golden age, and favour a return to what they see as a better way of life.

...And this comes to a following point: By default societies used to be much more totalitarian in the past. Since the majority (IMHO) of people who label themselves as conservatives seem to oppose progress which allows individuals more freedom, I see conservatives as people who favor totalitarism. This doesn't mean they are nazis, but it means that they favor at least a semi-totalitarian goverment. Kinda like what the Bush administration would like to be, but can't.

I know libertarians are for some reason considered as "conservative" in the american political field. But as far as I can see they are not conservative in any sense of the word. They have simply been pigeon-holed as "conservatives", for a reason I don't know. Probably because they are "fiscally conservative", in the sense that they are not supportive of leftist ideal of "equality of opportunity" through tax money.

Personally I'm very much a liberal, with a tint of social-democratic ideals (Equality of opportunity should be supported to a certain level IMHO. I also do no think that humans have a limitless right to rob and destroy natural resources). However, I'm not that strongly disagreeing with much at all with libertarians.

[Jon Lyrik]

A small government, wise fiscal spending, and a free market economy is Classical Conservatism, which I tend to lean to.

Neo-Conservatism is for big government, big spending but a free market economy.

Modern Conservatism is Neo-Conservatism, Classical Conservatism is closest to today's Libertarianism.

[outsyder]

I figured I'd fall under the label of a Classical Conservative.

[jeo4]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
Well Tuuka's definition is one of my reason's for starting it. I mean the conservative and liberal labels are used as insults these days, when behind both true causes there lies nobility. Are we really that lazy?

No, just that partisan in views. When hard liners toss words like liberal and right-wing around, I'm prone to plug my ears.

Wikipedia covered the term pretty well for me. I don't agree with most neoconservatives, so this definition is more accurate to me. I would agree with Edmund Burke before I would Ronald Reagan, for example. There is nothing wrong with social or political advancement, but we should take it in more controlled stages, as opposed to the sizable shift that the current US government is engaging in.

[The Postmaster General]

From a purely analogical standpoint, I view both sides as two uncles I've had.

Conservatism is that uncle who is always complaining about about the prices of things, and how you need to work for what you have, and everything you have you work for. He drives a nice car that he saved his whole life for, and when no one is looking, he shakes your hand, slipping you $5 and says "don't tell your mom I gave you this."

Liberalism is that uncle who passes out on your couch because he ate too much holiday turkey and drank too much holiday wine. He never gives you money, but always comes through around the gift-giving season. When you are in trouble, you call him first, because you know he won't be the one to tell mom and dad.

Both uncles are great guys, but the whole family talks shit about them behind their back.

[Grim H.]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
From a purely analogical standpoint, I view both sides as two uncles I've had.

Conservatism is that uncle who is always complaining about about the prices of things, and how you need to work for what you have, and everything you have you work for. He drives a nice car that he saved his whole life for, and when no one is looking, he shakes your hand, slipping you $5 and says "don't tell your mom I gave you this."

Liberalism is that uncle who passes out on your couch because he ate too much holiday turkey and drank too much holiday wine. He never gives you money, but always comes through around the gift-giving season. When you are in trouble, you call him first, because you know he won't be the one to tell mom and dad.

Both uncles are great guys, but the whole family talks shit about them behind their back.

That is so true, man.

[Lynn7]

Bubba- that uncle analogy is great!! LOL!

I am not into being a conservative to go back to the way things used to be and I am not into controlling people. I think that control should come in when we are protecting the lives of the weaker among us (unborn babies and brain-damaged people whose husbands want to starve them to death so they can begin anew with a new girlfriend and kids) Sorry for that last jab- I could not resist!

Anyway, I didn't like the conservatives from the 50'
s and 60s but I am really comfortable with the present form of conservatism. I think we really try to do the right thing and most have tried to be compassionate with things they do not agree with. For instance there may be conservatives who are against gay marriage but fo the most part, conservatives have come to the point where they are accepting of gay relationships. And many who hate abortion will not hold it personally against someone who has had an abortion. They may disapprove but they continue to be friends with the people.

[JohnTheHenchman]

wait tuuka did you really just say that communists and conservatives can be one in the same?

What?

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
wait tuuka did you really just say that communists and conservatives can be one in the same?

What?

Yes. It's a factually correct statement. Maybe you are mixing up "conservatism" and "conservatism in american political field". They are not one and the same thing.

Understandably this discussion mostly concerns american politics, but the original question was "what is conservatism to you" - I'm not american.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by Jon Lyrik
A small government, wise fiscal spending, and a free market economy is Classical Conservatism, which I tend to lean to.

Neo-Conservatism is for big government, big spending but a free market economy.

Modern Conservatism is Neo-Conservatism, Classical Conservatism is closest to today's Libertarianism.

How commonly are these definitions used in USA? I didn't find "classical conservatism" in Wikipedia and Neo-conservatism supposedly should support freedom and civil rights, which modern conservatives aren't really doing.

So I''m kinda confused on the definitions of those words, except for the fiscal differences which are obvious.

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by Tuukka
How commonly are these definitions used in USA?

Only by people who know what they're talking about.
Conservativism and liberalism have many subgroups, and these subgroups usually aren't classified on how "extreme" they may be. Actually alot of these groups contradict one another i.e. how much control should a government really have. Differant conservatives have differant opinions.

Yes. It's a factually correct statement. Maybe you are mixing up "conservatism" and "conservatism in american political field". They are not one and the same thing.

But even in "European politics" doesn't conservatism have to do with free market societies?

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
Only by people who know what they're talking about.
Conservativism and liberalism have many subgroups, and these subgroups usually aren't classified on how "extreme" they may be. Actually alot of these groups contradict one another i.e. how much control should a government really have. Differant conservatives have differant opinions.

What puzzles me that libertaniasm is essentially a liberal political idelology. Libertanism by it's nature advocates progress and new kind of society as opposed to the current or previous ones.

So they are basicly the exact opposite of conservatism.

And therefore I'm puzzled why libertarians are considered as part of conservatives.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
But even in "European politics" doesn't conservatism have to do with free market societies?

Nope. The definition probably has slightly different meanings depending on the country and their political background. Europe is a varied bunch politically, especially since most of eastern europe was behind the iron curtain.

From wikipedia:

"Some equate conservatism with the political right, but depending on the circumstances, conservatism can also apply to the political left. A Russian conservative might look back to better times under communism. Conservatism as a philosophy is much older than the left-right division."

...With which I agree completely. I would say that from an european standpoint conservatism generally means moral conservatism. A system where people are kept in check and controlled according to the value systems of the most old-fashioned members of the society. Anti-gay, anti-abortion, anti-freedom-of-speech, anti-enviromentalist, etc. Think of how society was 50+ years ago.

From an european standpoint a conservative society is a society where people are forced with law to follow the same moral principles and lifestyle which is defined as the only "right" way to live by the most old-fashioned members.

Of course there is a lot of variation in different countries in Europe, because we are a mixed bunch. Not everyone defines conservatism similarly. But I would claim most countries share my perspective, which is also the perspective of the finnish majority.

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by Tuukka
What puzzles me that libertaniasm is essentially a liberal political idelology. Libertanism by it's nature advocates progress and new kind of society as opposed to the current or previous ones.

So they are basicly the exact opposite of conservatism.

And therefore I'm puzzled why libertarians are considered as part of conservatives.

First of all conservatives are not against all "progress". Not all progress is good. Liberals have adopted the term "progressives" because they feel "liberalism" has become an ugly word(which they are not completely wrong about).
Libertarians above all else (if I'm not mistaken) value the free market, as well as no government intervention into personal affairs, unless absolutly necessary. Liberals in America want the government to manage the free market, and they want strict government regulations on numerous private activities. This is why Libertarians consider themselves conservatives(for the most part).

[Tuukka]

.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by Tuukka
Yes. It's a factually correct statement. Maybe you are mixing up "conservatism" and "conservatism in american political field". They are not one and the same thing.

Understandably this discussion mostly concerns american politics, but the original question was "what is conservatism to you" - I'm not american.

so conservatives in finland are communists?

[JohnTheHenchman]

In this country, Libertarians consider themselves true conservatives. They are much closer to being conservative than any thing else.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
so conservatives in finland are communists?

Some are, most aren't. Communist party has been pretty much dead here for the last 15 years, and had very little support even before that.

Finland has never been a communist country, in case you are wondering. We have a social democracy very similar to other scandinavian countries (Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Island).

[JohnTheHenchman]

No, I knew you guys were similar to the other scandanavians.

I guess it's interesting to see your perspective and what it means to someone in a completely different part of the world.

[Tuukka]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by EVILxxx
First of all conservatives are not against all "progress". Not all progress is good. Liberals have adopted the term "progressives" because they feel "liberalism" has become an ugly word(which they are not completely wrong about).

From wikipedia:

"Conservatism is a major political philosophy supporting traditional values or an established social order. Etymologically, the word conservatism implies that conservatives seek to conserve the existing social order or to reinstate an ideal social order now in decline. This can take a peaceful democratic form or violent radical form, and there are historical examples of both."

Liberals in America want the government to manage the free market, and they want strict government regulations on numerous private activities.

From wikipedia:

"Liberalism is an ideology, or current of political thought, which defines itself as striving to maximise individual liberty through a democratic system of rights under law. In this system, the form of society is determined by the outcome of open competitive process, generally including economic competition, free exchange of ideas, and political expression within a defined framework. Liberalism rejects many foundational assumptions which dominated most earlier theories of government, such as hereditary status and established religion.

The fundamental principles of liberalism include:

Equal rights under the law

The idea that society originates in a voluntary social contract

Anti-utopianism - rejection of a prior plan or design for society, both classic utopias and state planning.

Competition as social ordering - the belief that a collective benefit results from individuals competing against each other.

Governments should rule with the consent of the governed.
Individual rights, especially those to life, liberty and property."

"Libertarians above all else (if I'm not mistaken) value the free market, as well as no government intervention into personal affairs, unless absolutly necessary.

From wikipedia:

"Libertarianism is a political philosophy[1] that holds that all individuals should have the liberty to do as they wish with themselves and their property as long as those actions do not infringe on the same liberty of others. Thus, liberty is equalized among individuals, with no individual having more liberty than any other. As libertarianism is an advocacy of negative liberty, it is asserted that no person (or government) may initiate coercion. Libertarians make "coercion" specific by defining it as the use of physical force, the threat of such, or deception (fraud) that alters, or is intended to alter, the way individuals' would use their property (including their body) if those elements were not present. Coercion is ethically permissible only when employed in defense against an initiation. This ban on initiation of force, called the non-aggression principle, is central to the philosophy of many libertarians and is often predicated on the principle of "individual sovereignty" or self-ownership.

Libertarians generally believe that governments should be held to the same moral standards as individuals. Thus, they oppose most or all governmental initiation of force, even if it is supported by a democratic majority. Libertarians believe that if individuals are not initiating coercion against others, then government should leave them in peace. As a result, they oppose criminalization of victimless acts (or as the ancient common law maxim says: Volenti non fit injuria --to the willing person, no legal wrong is done). This opposition to coercion also extends into the economic realm. They oppose government intervention in the economy (other than to forbid businesses from engaging in coercion or fraud); while some oppose all taxation, most support only enough taxation as they believe necessary to protect individual liberty. Most support the existence of government but advocate reducing the size and scope of government to the essential functions of protecting individual liberty, private property, and a free market."

MY COMMENTS:

...According to the traditional definitions of conservatism and liberalism given by wikipedia, libertarians are much, much closer to liberalism than conservatism. In fact even wikipedia defines libertariasm as "a liberal individualist philosophy".

And yes, I'm aware that wikipedia also includes libertarians are a part of "american conservatism".

But clearly these words are defined differently in the american political field as opposed to european political field. So much in fact, that they've become almost opposites of each other in some ways.

I guess that's why it's good to talk about this, since there seems to be a lot of confusion about the use of these words, since people coming from different backgrounds use them to define entirely different things.

[someguy]

Tuukka, you are making your source wikipedia which is a site that you can go on and edit yourself. So I can go on that conservative wiki and change it to anything I want.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by someguy
Tuukka, you are making your source wikipedia which is a site that you can go on and edit yourself. So I can go on that conservative wiki and change it to anything I want.

It's also the most comprehensive online dictionary.

Internet movie database uses user-submitted information. According to IMDB Steven Spielberg has directed Jaws. Should I doubt this information, because it's user-submitted?

If you think either my or Wikipedia's definition of conservatism, liberalism or libertianism is wrong, then please give a proper argument to support your opinion. Don't just say that I might be wrong or I might not be wrong.

Just for a note: Wikipedia is controlled by it's users and moderators. So faulty information is removed from the site the faster the more popular the searchword is. Certainly the keywords I've used are popular enough, and the "page history" at wikipedia proves it.

It works on the same logic as IMDB: I can't go and change the director of Jaws as Uwe Boll, even if I'm able to submit information to IMDB.

This is worth reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Who_writes_Wikipedia

[Tuukka]

Is http://www.thefreedictionary.com a source good enough?
____

con·ser·va·tism (kn-sûrv-tzm)
n.

1. The inclination, especially in politics, to maintain the existing or traditional order.

2. A political philosophy or attitude emphasizing respect for traditional institutions, distrust of government activism, and opposition to sudden change in the established order.

3. The principles and policies of the Conservative Party in the United Kingdom or of the Progressive Conservative Party in Canada.

4. Caution or moderation, as in behavior or outlook.

Noun 1.

conservatism - a political or theological orientation advocating the preservation of the best in society and opposing radical changes
conservativism

neoconservativism - an approach to politics or theology that represents a return to a traditional point of view (in contrast to more liberal or radical schools of thought of the 1960s)

reaction - extreme conservatism in political or social matters; "the forces of reaction carried the election"


_____


lib·er·al·ism (lbr--lzm, lbr-)
n.

1. The state or quality of being liberal.

2. a. A political theory founded on the natural goodness of humans and the autonomy of the individual and favoring civil and political liberties, government by law with the consent of the governed, and protection from arbitrary authority.

2. b. often Liberalism The tenets or policies of a Liberal party.

3. An economic theory in favor of laissez-faire, the free market, and the gold standard.

4. a. A 19th-century Protestant movement that favored free intellectual inquiry, stressed the ethical and humanitarian content of Christianity, and de-emphasized dogmatic theology.

4. b. A 19th-century Roman Catholic movement that favored political democracy and ecclesiastical reform but was theologically orthodox.

Noun

1. liberalism - a political orientation that favors progress and reform

neoliberalism - a political orientation originating in the 1960s; blends liberal political views with an emphasis on economic growth

2. liberalism - an economic theory advocating free competition and a self-regulating market and the gold standard economic theory -

(economics) a theory of commercial activities (such as the production and consumption of goods)


_____


Noun 1. libertarianism

- an ideological belief in freedom of thought and speech


______

...MY COMMENT: As you can see, Wikipedia tends to be much more comprehensive than other online dictionaries.

[JohnTheHenchman]

wow that definition of neoconservatism is so frigging off

yeah I'd have to rather the use of wiki in this case

[Tuukka]

It's interesting how different variations and meanings there can be for words in people's minds.

I guess this just proves that you can't judge people simply based on the label they put on themselves - The label might actually mean something very different to that other person than what it means to you.

[The Postmaster General]

I think there is so much that is based off the original roots of these words, that perspective is the key factor.

This is much like... I'm not remembering the philosopher's name, but I first read it from Robert Anton Wilson --- But the entire take on a "blue sky" as blue is something different to many people - one may say it's blue, one may say it's grey, and yet others will say it's everything BUT blue, as blue is actually the light that's reflected back to our eyes.

Generally, I find that labels mean absolutely nothing, accept being a quick way to explain yourself. Obviously Bill Clinton was more conservative in some ways that John Kerry was in others -- but both were considered Liberal.

There are so many things that I've found myself to agree with -- and none of is it based in "rights or wrongs" but in things that sound like a good idea to me. Some things associated with Liberalism have agreed with my lifestyle, and so have some things associated Conservatism.

It's odd though, and goes along totally with JohnTheHenchman's assertions - people totally mislabel and contradict the root meanings of LIberalism and Conservatism --- They say it's a conservative trait to be pro-guns, yet isn't it Liberals who are associated with pro-freedom of speech --- Can two groups really disagree about the same things as they apply to our Constitution? How can Liberals always be associated as pro-choice, but anti-death penalty?

In reality, there is only one shade of blue at work in these definitions, but the terms have not been misused by the people, but by the politicians applying themselves to these labels. In the end, the peopel have only be confused as dilluted in regards to the actual meaning, which as I shared with my analogy -- One can be reduced to a willingness to splurge, and the other a determination to save. It's all very well defined in the words themself and their origins. (Latin?)

Somewhere along the way, politicans have found that they will have more backing by picking one or the other, whether or not they trully fit the definition, but perhaps they can adapt the themselves so that it can work -- but consequently, it has been the meanings of the words that have been adapted, and not the politicans.

Personally, I blame the hippies who became yuppies, but probably should be blamming my banker, pot dealer, and stop paying attention to what philosophers have to say.

[JohnTheHenchman]

bill clinton was definitely more conservative than kerry

I mean, he had dick morris for an advisor

it was smart of him to do so, especially since both of his races were three candidate races in which the other two were also conservatives

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by JohnTheHenchman
bill clinton was definitely more conservative than kerry

I mean, he had dick morris for an advisor

it was smart of him to do so, especially since both of his races were three candidate races in which the other two were also conservatives


Yeah, and it's very funny, because in terms of using the words as they apply to the stereotypes - I mean, one you have this uptight monotone war vetern, then the other this pot smoking, sax playing "draft-dodger"

But who was actually the more conservative one, and who was the most Liberal?

I would put big money down and bet that if you did a general poll, putting some basic information about the guys, asking which one was more Liberal, the majority of Americans would say Mr. Bill.

More things to go along with your assertion that the terms are widely misused.

Just a side-note: Perot was pretty damned conservative, and he was pro-pot, if I remember correctly. As I mentioned before this is something I always hear people automatically attaching as making one "liberal"

And an observation that is just something I find comical, although it is a stereotype in itself --- Why do LIberal politicans always have bigger hair?

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove


And an observation that is just something I find comical, although it is a stereotype in itself --- Why do LIberal politicans always have bigger hair?

. . . To cover their lobotomies? :D

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
. . . To cover their lobotomies? :D

Haha.

I was wondering if it was where they all hide their weed.

[JohnTheHenchman]

Originally posted by BubbaStrangelove
Yeah, and it's very funny, because in terms of using the words as they apply to the stereotypes - I mean, one you have this uptight monotone war vetern, then the other this pot smoking, sax playing "draft-dodger"

But who was actually the more conservative one, and who was the most Liberal?

I would put big money down and bet that if you did a general poll, putting some basic information about the guys, asking which one was more Liberal, the majority of Americans would say Mr. Bill.

More things to go along with your assertion that the terms are widely misused.

Just a side-note: Perot was pretty damned conservative, and he was pro-pot, if I remember correctly. As I mentioned before this is something I always hear people automatically attaching as making one "liberal"

And an observation that is just something I find comical, although it is a stereotype in itself --- Why do LIberal politicans always have bigger hair?

Bill Clinton pushed NAFTA and passed it thanks to the Republicans. It's very interesting. Sometimes we do get people that transcend party lines.

Perot is a conservative. He doesn't think government should be telling everyone what to do. Which is why the pro-pot makes sense. Libertarians are the same way, but for some reason lots of people look at them as the "drug Party"