What the heck is up in Paris?

[Lynn7]

I know it all started with the accidental deaths of a couple of teens who were electrocuted as they ran from police but now they are saying that the riots seem to be getting organized. I saw one reference that said that the people rioting are immigrants from Africa and I saw another (in another article) that mentioned that these people are Muslim. It's all so understated though. Is it all just incidental if the rioters are Muslim or is this something more serious?

[MacReady]

Here's something that goes further into the matter. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4401670.stm)

[The Postmaster General]

"It's all so understated though."

The revolution will not be televised.

Eat the rich? If you can't eat them, burn them.

Finely crafted French linens are coming harder to come by. The last thing this world needs is another war.

Take it to the streets. They got theirs, we'll take it away from their snobbish hands.

When the poor becomes sick, the rich get ill.

"When the going gets wierd, the weird turn pro." - Thompson

I went to Gulf War, and all I got was this lousey syndrome.

"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing." - Todd Rundgren

Hey, I got an idea - let's move the party to France!

"Seacrest, out." - Ryan Seacreat

[Vong]

I think the riots are a product of a built up oppression against immigrants.
France has one of the largest populations of Muslims in the West, not to mention a hand full of other minorities from many African nations. France has continually tried to keep the status quo intact, including the law banning certain religious items of Islamic, Hindu and Buddhist faiths, as well as many others.

Although I do not fully suppport riots, or rioting acts, I do support there cause. When voices against racism, bigotry and discrimination fall on deaf ears, the last resort tends to be violence...and it does work. Their problems are being shown in media outlets around the world and finally their voices are being heard...

[outsyder]

I hope these riots are squashed quickly.



BTW Bubba, care to explain what the hell that was?:confused:

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by outsyder
BTW Bubba, care to explain what the hell that was?:confused:

Vong pretty well summed up what I was getting at.

Bitches like Michael Brown look at people dying and say "Let them eat cake." then they turn their back for a moment, look back, and say, "When can I go home?" Those greedy, shameful people are only begining to get scared, and they don't even know what scared is yet.

Those greedy sons-a-bitches have known what this is going to be about for a long time. They've enslaved the ignorant branches of the majority (non-rich people) and encrusted on their heads that its all going to come down to a race war, the whole time acting like money has nothing to do with anything.

Pitting the poor against the poor by dividing race has been the only thing keeping these fat bastards where they can make the rules, and that's exactly what they are trying to do all over the world. They made their way into Northern Africa and pitted brother against brother by teaching them about jealousy, power, and corruption as a singular concept.

People are figuring it out more and more everyday. If it's not blacks uprising in America, it is Muslems in France --- We dare not say "Poor people" because no one wants to admit how well off we really do have it. Racist fucks the whole time will use shit like this to try and say, "Oh, look how those people act."

The poor ARE the majority. Everyday they are ensuring that's being figured out more and more.

Either we are going to start appreciating what's going on in LA, St. Petersberg (FLA), New Orleans, and now Paris -- or we are going to end up no better than we ever were, and probably the poorest of them all.

Take care, and give care. Don't eat it!

[Lynn7]

I don't agree with you guys. There is a right way and a wrong way to protest. These rioters are firebombing buses with people who are too poor to own cars. One handicapped person was trapped on a bus and got severely burned. How is that right? Why is it you guys go nuts if our military accidentally kills someone and yet you make excuses for the rioters?

I think the bottom line is the Muslim undercurent here. There is a growing movement of the Muslim extremnists to start moving in on countries like these. As they gain power we will have a hard time standing against this stuff.All they need is to get a good foothold somewhere like Paris and then it's only a matter of time before it really spreads. Even the Arab nations are afraid of this kind of stuff happening. As I've said before it is very easy for civilization to crack. We see it all the time on a small scale during blackouts and hurricanes etc.

[The Postmaster General]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynn7
I don't agree with you guys. There is a right way and a wrong way to protest. These rioters are firebombing buses with people who are too poor to own cars. One handicapped person was trapped on a bus and got severely burned. How is that right?


No one has said it was right, or has excused it.



Why is it you guys go nuts if our military accidentally kills someone and yet you make excuses for the rioters?


Again, no one has excused it, but this comparison is ridiculous.

You are comparing a strongly funded and highly organized military power to civil unrest.

It would be like comparing the bombing of Pearl Harbor to the US Slave Revolts.

Or better yet - comparing BIFF from Back To The Future using violence to solve problems with GEORGE MCFLY from Back To The Future using violence to solve problems.

But I don't know why I'm even talking - I'm some what offended that you would imply that we support to murder of innocent lives. If I'm not mistaken, I have never said to you that your support of the war in Iraq means you support the murder of innocent lives.

Really underhanded....


I think the bottom line is the Muslim undercurent here. There is a growing movement of the Muslim extremnists to start moving in on countries like these. As they gain power we will have a hard time standing against this stuff.All they need is to get a good foothold somewhere like Paris and then it's only a matter of time before it really spreads. Even the Arab nations are afraid of this kind of stuff happening. As I've said before it is very easy for civilization to crack. We see it all the time on a small scale during blackouts and hurricanes etc.


So, in other words, you believe that these people are evil and today they woke up and decided that an injustice would be committed against their people (being shot by the cops) and that they would riot in response?

Were you one of those people who thought at the start of the LA Riots that the race wars had begun? Because it sort of blows me away that you see an instance where police shot and killed a member of a community, prompting that community to riot, and all you see is a "Muslem undercurrent."

You might as well be saying, "Those crazy French are at it again!"

[Lynn7]

From what I understand the police were chasing some teens and they accidentally got electrocuted, setting off these riots- am I wrong?

I don't think this started as a Muslim thing but I wonder from the reports I have read if this unrest that began in a certain way is not taking a turn to something more dangerous by some Muslim extremist groups who might be taking advantage of this.

[Vong]

There is a growing movement of the Muslim extremnists to start moving in on countries like these.

This is true. Muslim extremists do tend to take advantage of a high population of Muslims in a Western nation so they can easily blend in and create cells.

But I don't think this is the case. I haven't heard any reports on a terrorist cell in France, nor are these rioters "terrorists" in the sense of an extremist.

These people are getting the attention they need to shine light on the problem. It is regrettable that they have to resort to violence, but it's a neccesary last resort, not to mention extremely effective.

Tell me this: would any of us care, or any media outlet here in North America care if these people held rallies to protest there injustices? Probably not. The most a story like that would get is a small article in a newspaper, or a little side story on the news.

The riots in France is getting our attention, and finally their voices are being heard. People who didn't know of the racism in France, now know, and can either act on it, or talk about it; both work. Other nations will use these riots as a tool in pressuring France to loosen laws and create reforms. Organizations like Amnesty International will give their support to these people. With all of this attention on France, the French government can either act on it, like a liberal democracy should, or ignore it and only focus on the short term solution; which is dissolving the riots.

Violence is a powerful tool. As horrible as it might be, it does create change. France, and other countries, would not be the way they are today if it weren't for the French Revolution in 1789. The violence they caused created a sense of nationalism, which only existed a few years prior, half a world away in the American Revolution. Monarchs of Europe feared the spread of nationalism, and attempted to extinguish the flame, but not without its own populations mimicking the French ideals. These ideals, beliefs, and views would soon evolve into the Western ideals we hold today.

I can go on about the evolution of Western thought, but meh.... ;)

So while it might seem grim now, these riots will undoubtedly create change, and more than likely will be good change.

From what I understand the police were chasing some teens and they accidentally got electrocuted, setting off these riots- am I wrong?

Lynn, I refer you to my first post in regards to this question. The electocution may have been a small act, or even a mistake, but it was the catalyst needed to start the unrest that has been building for years amonst the persecuted minorities of France.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
From what I understand the police were chasing some teens and they accidentally got electrocuted, setting off these riots- am I wrong?



It doesn't matter if they were electocuted or shot in the back to most of the people who think there is no class hostility, amd that this is all just indicative of "lowly people."

That's what I've been going on about - This is the same thing that happened in America a month ago and the same thing that is going on in parts of Africa right now.

You sit and act shocked, like you can't figure out why people do these things, and I have been anticipating people loosing it like this, because I see where the anger and hostility comes from, and it ain't in tax cuts and new land for development.

[Lynn7]

I think that it may be true that because of limited choices people might have been able to make, there may have been a build up of hostility and rage that exploded but it seems to sterile to look at the situation and say that these people are using this kind of violence to draw attention to their plight.

What is happening is that there are people who are totally out of control or under the influence of some higher authority who are directing this rage- either way what is happening is reprehensible and extrmemely dangerous. I guarantee you that within these neighborhoods there are hundreds or thousands of innoceents who are cowering in their apartments in fear and there is noone to call to for help. Teh police are too afraid to go in and the paramedics are getting shot at.

I know that in our country's history there were gross injustics and the Black people were abused and murdered. It is hard for me to apply the same sympathies to this situation. If these people are in Paris, one of the most liberal countires in the world, why were they facing so much prejudice? I have to put the blame on the people themselves for not figuring out a way to get out of their poverty.

I was watching Michael Jordan and Charles Barclay (sp?) on Oprah the other day and I think it was BArclay who said he was going to give a beggar some money one day and Jordan knocked his hand away and said, "If that guy can ask for money, then he can say 'Welcome to McDonald's'" Sometimes I wonder if people are angry cause they aren't rich and they just don't want to work at menial jobs. Everyone has to start somewhere but some don't want to do anything. I have to wonder if it just isn't the modern day culture that is to blame. The people of a hundred years ago would do anything to make money including the most menial factory work for children. Selling ice or pickles on the street etc.

[The Postmaster General]

I don't think it's a discrimination thing, nor is it an organized, self-conscious protest, ie. I don't think they are doing it as protest.

To me, it is sort of like symptom from poverty and maybe lack of education.

People with know-how don't riot, they lobby politicians, so things usually go their way. People with skills write letters to the paper to voice frustrations, for instance.

Some people don't have the skills - and it's not about job skills - I'm talking about the skills to organize, and get their voices heard. It's societal nature to have a voice in affairs, and when people aren't expressing themselves in a healthy manner, they tend to do things they shouldn't be doing - rioting, stealing, and a whole list of other people.

Yes, there are people who are evil - Jack The Ripper, perhaps - but when an entire community is commiting felonies, that doesn't jive that everyone is evil. Something else is going on, and it doesn't have much to do with a desire to commit crimes.

Or maybe this is all a symptom of Liberal guilt?

It just seems to me that people see stuff like this and automatically make people into the worst-case, and yes - what they are doing is wrong. The bigger issue, I think, though - is that to me this all seems it could be more preventable.

Most of the times these people could have used something to lose.

[Lynn7]

The violence is spreading outside of Paris now:

PARIS (AP) - Ten nights of urban unrest that brought thousands of arson attacks on cars, nursery schools and other targets from the Mediterranean to the German border reached Paris where at least 28 cars were burned overnight in the French capital, government officials said Sunday.

Police found a gasoline bomb-making factory in a southern suburb of the city, with more than 100 bottles, gallons of fuel and hoods for hiding rioters' faces, a senior Justice Ministry official said Sunday.

Six youths, all aged under 18, were arrested in the raid Saturday night on a building in Evry south of Paris where the gasoline bombs were being put together, Jean-Marie Huet, the ministry's director of criminal affairs and pardons, told The Associated Press.

The discovery, Huet said, shows that gasoline bombs being used by rioters "are not being improvised by kids in their bathrooms."



Some 2,300 police poured into the Paris region to bolster security on a restive Saturday night while firefighters moved out around the city to douse blazing vehicles.

At least 918 vehicles - including those in Paris - were burned during the 10th night of violence, said the Interior Ministry's operational center tracking the violence. There was no word yet on damage in Paris to shops, gymnasiums, nursery schools and other targets which have been attacked around the country.

Police made 186 arrests nationwide overnight.

For the second night in a row, a helicopter equipped with spotlights and video cameras to track bands of marauding youths combed the poor, heavily immigrant Seine-Saint-Denis region, northeast of Paris, where the violence has been concentrated. Small teams of police were deployed to chase down rioters speeding from one attack to another in cars and on motorbikes.

On Friday night, 900 vehicles were torched across France in the worst wave of arson since the urban unrest began.



The violence - originally concentrated in neighborhoods northeast of Paris with large populations of Arab and African Muslim immigrants - has now spread across France, extending west to the rolling fields of Normandy and south to resort cities on the Mediterranean.

__________________________________________________ __

It occurs to me that this is why you never want to take the right to bear arms away from the citizens- in cases like these the police are otherwise occupied and you need a way to protect your family.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Lynn7
It occurs to me that this is why you never want to take the right to bear arms away from the citizens- in cases like these the police are otherwise occupied and you need a way to protect your family.


And even more to the point - You want people educated about their rights to bear arms so that they know the full extent of options at their disposal.

[The Heart Collector]

Goddamn towelheads.

[Tuukka]

Personally I don't think the riots are doing much of a political statement about anything.

It's a situation where the havoc is caused mostly by teenage gangs who are doing it for the kicks. They have neither understanding or intention to make a stand about anything. And they are just harming all the normal people in their own neighborhood, they are not doing anything against the supposed enemies of the white and rich.

And it has nothing to do with Islam. These kids are not religious, they are just aimless morons who are currently COMPETING with other gangs about who gets to do the most damage. If anything, they have turned their backs to Islam.

Instead, they prefer to listen gangsta rap, play video games, get drunk and stoned, and screw teenage chicks.

Sure, it's a result of a poor environment and the fact that these kids don't have much options in their lives. But they are not helping their situation in any way, and they don't care, either.

I've read interviews with these gang kids on newspapers and the articles are pretty revealing. The kids think the whole situation is "cool" and they are having fun with it.

Whatever. They'll eventually get tired of burning cars and find some other hobbies.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by Tuukka
Personally I don't think the riots are doing much of a political statement about anything.

It's a situation where the havoc is caused mostly by teenage gangs who are doing it for the kicks. They have neither understanding or intention to make a stand about anything. And they are just harming all the normal people in their own neighborhood, they are not doing anything against the supposed enemies of the white and rich....

Sure, it's a result of a poor environment and the fact that these kids don't have much options in their lives. But they are not helping their situation in any way, and they don't care, either.
.


Yeah - these kids aren't "revolutionaries", just by-products of a screwed up world. Or as I described them earlier, like symptoms.

It just grates me that when people see things like this going on, it becomes one-sided very quickly with no understanding of the other side. They are mostly just thought of as shitty people, and while they deserve that label, treating it as one in many "us against them" scenarios isn't going to get anyone anywhere except the likelihood that this sort of stuff will keep happening.

When Bush commented on the poverty situation in the US, that's the first time I can ever remember a politician mentioning that this a huge division line in race relations, and more than likely the root-cause of all racism - racism roots from ignorace, ignorance from lack of information, lack of information from poor education, and education conditions among the poor ARE the worst in the country.

Well, Bush didn't deduce it that far. He stopped short of saying he is going to pray for equality.

[Vong]

Thought I'd mention this...
Quoted from Rob Corddry of the Daily Show last night:

"With the images from Iraq, and the protests in Argentina, it's refreshing to see a country implode in an orgasm of hatred, and know they can't pin this one on us (America)"

[EVILxxx]

I just heard that the french government is not going to allow police to return fire. Not a good idea.

[Lynn7]

Yeah- this is no time to be politically correct and yet they are probably afraid that if they killed anyone it could really turn nasty. well it is pretty nasty now and if they don't start taking charge it could get past the point of no return. Civilization is a thin veneer and all that.

[MacReady]

Originally posted by Lynn7
It occurs to me that this is why you never want to take the right to bear arms away from the citizens- in cases like these the police are otherwise occupied and you need a way to protect your family.

I hate this arguement.

If you allow a society to have weapons to keep away rioters, then the rioters will have access to them as well. And I don't wanna imagine if those whackos in France went on shooting sprees.

Originally posted by EVILxxx
I just heard that the french government is not going to allow police to return fire. Not a good idea.

Dude.

They killed two of their guys, and they gave a small chunk of europe a thrashing for nearly two weeks. Killing only a few could suddenly make them even more hostile and we might start seeing a civilian body count.

However, I think we're going to have to return force soon if they don't simmer down. I'd say warn that anybody in Paris or getting close to Paris (they're aren't any riots in there, are there?). Hell, warn that the rioters that if they don't subside within a day the gloves or off and the police can do as they please to quell them.

[EVILxxx]

Originally posted by MacReady


Dude.

They killed two of their guys, and they gave a small chunk of europe a thrashing for nearly two weeks. Killing only a few could suddenly make them even more hostile and we might start seeing a civilian body count.

However, I think we're going to have to return force soon if they don't simmer down. I'd say warn that anybody in Paris or getting close to Paris (they're aren't any riots in there, are there?). Hell, warn that the rioters that if they don't subside within a day the gloves or off and the police can do as they please to quell them.

Dude.

10 Police officers were shot just the other day. If the French government has any concept of "the continuation of force" they would start tightening whatever grip they have left,

[MacReady]

Originally posted by EVILxxx
Dude.

Why does every fucking person alway make a big ass issue about whenver I use that word and mocks me for it!?!?!

[outsyder]

Originally posted by MacReady
Why does every fucking person alway make a big ass issue about whenver I use that word and mocks me for it!?!?!

http://fray.slate.com/media/51000/51709/1-Lebowski.JPG

"Let me explain something to you. Um, I am not "Mr. Lebowski". You're Mr. Lebowski. I'm the Dude. So that's what you call me. You know, that or, uh, His Dudeness, or uh, Duder, or El Duderino if you're not into the whole brevity thing."

[MacReady]

A Lebowski reference now? Holy shit.

Folks, I've found the gateway to my own private hell and it's in this thread.

[EVILxxx]

Ha! Sorry about that Mac, just making sure I had your attention.:D

[electriclite]

The thing is with a lot of countries, especially France, they have VERY stringent immigration rules. I knew this guy, originally from Ireland who lived in Australia, was in danger of being deported because the Australian government "wanted to see why his job couldn't be done by a native".

There's been a lot of unrest in France on the basis of immigration. Lots of CIVIL protests denouncing how easily the government denies citizenship to people of Middle Eastern or African descent. And this racial pressue cooker has been simmering for years. Last summer in Marseille some of those same "disaffected youth" (of middle eastern descent) have been responsible for attacks on teenagers. A lot of these people's homes look like the ghettos I've lived around.

Congratulations France, you've always been fascinated with the American ghetto, now you've got one just like our's. I'm sure your own 50 Cent can't be too far off.

The French's mistreatment of immigrants became evident in America when Oprah complained a few months back about not being allowed into a high end clothing store because the worker there did not recognize her and thought she was a North African. Specifically when they refused to let her in their "excuse" was "We've had a lot of problems with Africans lately."

This shit has been percolating quietly for quite sometime. Now its finally made enough of a spill to garner worldwide media coverage. The riots didn't just happen because 2 middle eastern kids were killed, this has been in the making for quite sometime.

This could very well be France's own version of the L.A. riots, and a change (if they're smart) is gonna come.

[The Postmaster General]

Originally posted by electriclite
This shit has been percolating quietly for quite sometime. Now its finally made enough of a spill to garner worldwide media coverage. The riots didn't just happen because 2 middle eastern kids were killed, this has been in the making for quite sometime.

This could very well be France's own version of the L.A. riots, and a change (if they're smart) is gonna come.


Well put.