Snape in Book 7

[inglourious basterd]

*SPOILERS: Book 6*


This thread has major spoilers for Book 6. If you haven't read book 6, do not read this thread. Everything here about book 7 is pure speculation.


For those of us who have read Book 6, we know exactly what happened at the end.

Based on this action, its pretty safe to say that Snape is a very very important character in the final book. The question is whether he is a die-hard death eater or whether Rowling has another trick with her wand.

Here is one theory by Nachokoolaid:
I think Dumbledore had all this trust in him for a reason. I think that's why Dumbledore froze Harry at the showdown. He knew Harry would try to stop Snape. Dumbledore knew that the only way for Snape to be cemented as trusted in Voldemort's eyes was to have him kill him. He knew that Voldemort would never trust anyone, but this would definitely be persuasive. Plus, Dumbledore knew the prophecy. He knew he couldn't get close to Voldemort. He knew he couldn't stop him, so this was his contribution. He knew that by giving his own life, he'd be able to put a man on the inside that would be able to aid Harry (the last person we'd expect) when the time came for Harry and Voldemort's showdown.

Now, Snape won't kill Voldemort, but he will help Harry when the time comes. Go a read all the books again. Especially the closing scenes of Book 6. Snape could have killed Harry just as easily in those last bits before he apparates many times, but he doesn't. He knows all the spells that Harry is throwing at him, but he just sort of avoids them. He does enough to ensure that Harry will seek out Voldemort with even more hatred now. Rowling has worked hard to make this the big shock of Book 7, and I hope she comes through with it. Snape remaining as a bad guy is too boring and she would have wasted a golden opportunity to make a much more interesting character (in Snape). For someone that Harry hates so much (and readers as well right now) help Harry and save him in his time of need would probably be the most shocking event in the entire series (especially since we know of the hatred with Harry's parents and Snape from book 3, etc). Plus, Snape would essentially be giving his own life as well, because Voldemort would prbably kill him (depending on how the final showdown goes down), or he would be breaking the unbreakable vow, and securing his death. Interesting stuff.

This, of course, is not the only option. There are limitless possibilities. My counterargument to this is that it could very well be Rowling's intention to state that Dumbledore was not omniscient. Moreover, he had weaknesses that were exploitable. His specific weakness that allowed this to happen was his unrelenting desire to believe that kindness is an innate feature of humanity. We have seen Dumbledore been burned by this "weakness" before. Infact, he openly admits it to Harry when he debriefs him about the big V. One example was when he allowed Tom Riddle into Hogwarts.

Nacho could very well have been correct in his theory. I think that he provides some good literary evidence. But there are still many possibilities. Watur2Phunk compiled a list of ideas regarding possiblities for Snape in Book 7. Did he leave anything out?

THEORIES about Snape anybody?

A. Just a damn good Occlumence and threw Dumbledore a curve ball, which I doubt because Harry has always predicted things... to be wrong, and he thought Snape was evil the entire book.

B. He is secretly a death eater using a Polyjuice Potion pretending to be Snape (ehhh)

C. He is under the imperius curse, which is likely to me.

D. He is so loyal to the job that Dumbledore gave him as a double agent that he killed Dumbledore just so he would not loose his cover.

E. Dumbledore knew his old age was coming and had a plan with Snape for him to kill him and from Harry so that it would cause a turning point in Harry's life to seek out Voldemort and save the wizarding world.

F. Is a retarded asshole who gave into peer pressure.

I definitely believe that Snape is a character that will play a big role in Book 7. He will either be a huge obstacle for Harry or will serve some purpose. There is literally zero chance that he will fade away. Did Dumbledore truly have a weakness toward kindness of humanity? Or is he really omniscient? We wont really know for a few years, but these will definitely be made clear after book 7 is released. Till then, lets discuss.

[inglourious basterd]

I'm trying to think of other possibilities about what can possibly happen to snape. I will paraphrase waltur's list. Some are plausible. Others are obviously not. However, elements of those that are not plausible can still may be partially correct.

1. He's a deatheater and he fooled Dumbledore all along
2. Snape is not really snape. It is another death eater using polyjuice.
3. Snape is under the imperius curse.
4. Dumbledore and Snape made an agreement. Dumbledore asked Snape to kill him in order to allow the prophecy to go forth. It would also allow Snape to immediately be Voldemort's most trusted advisor.
5. Snape's allegiance is not truly with Voldemort and he killed Dumbledore to stay in character.

So what else could happen?

[Mari]

Theese are definatly some interesting theories. An incredible sarcrifice for dumbledore to make, but at the same time definatly an sacrifice dumbledore would be willing to make.

I've been thinking a lot about what rellay up with snape, the thing about rowling is that things are never really the way you think they are. And that snape would just turn out to be evil..there's something missing...

I guess we are gonna have to wait for the book to come out an see..

mari

[Horror whore]

Here's the theory I think works best: Snape is good and Dumbledore is ALIVE.

This book put a focus on nonverbal spells that could be performed without speaking. The witch or wizard just has to concentrate on the spell he or she wishes to perform, and it will just happen. I think it is also probably possible that said witch or wizard could be concentrating hard on one spell, while saying another. That is what I believe Snape did. The two other times we see the Avada Kedavra spell performed and actually kill someone in the series, the victims just immediately fall to the ground. However, when Snape uses it on Dumbledore, he violently flies off the tower and falls to the ground. I think Snape used a charm that hurt Dumbledore very badly, but did not kill him. However, one thing I can't explain is why the charm let up if Dumbledore is still alive.

I believe Dumbledore and Snape had been planning this for quite some time, and that is why Dumbledore used the freezing charm on Harry, because he knew what was going to happen and that Harry would try to fight back. Dumbledore knew Snape would have to leave Hogwarts at the year's end, because he knew Voldemort had cursed the Defense Against the Dark Arts position. Also, Dumbledore never says "Don't kill me!" He just says, "Severus, please..." He could very well be asking him to go through with their plan.

Throughout the chapter "The Pheonix Laments" we can hear Fawkes crying. Pheonix's tears have healing powers, it is very possible that Fawkes is healing Dumbledore throughout this chapter, because we never do see the body after Harry straightens his glasses.

Here is an excerpt from the UK version:

"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got not choice." "Come over to the right side, Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...when the time comes we can protect him too...come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore.

And here is the same excerpt from the US version:

"He told me to do it or he'll kill me. I've got no choice." "He cannot kill you if you are already dead. Come over to the right side Draco, and we can hide you more completely than you can possibly imagine. What is more, I can send members of the Order to your mother tonight to hide her likewise. Nobody would be surprised that you had died in your attempt to kill me -- forgive me, but Lord Voldemort probably expects it. Nor would the Death Eaters be surprised that we had captured and killed your mother -- it is what they would do themselves, after all. Your father is safe at the moment in Azkaban...When the time comes we can protect him too. Come over to the right side, Draco...you are not a killer..." Malfoy stared at Dumbledore.

Dumbledore wants to hide Draco by pretending he is dead. Could that be what he is doing for himself?
The portions is bold are completely missing from the UK version. It is possible JK Rowling thought that this was too obvious a clue to what was really happening and she edited them out, but by mistake they got left in the US edition.

Okay, that's enough for now. ;)

[inglourious basterd]

What about the blood pact that Snape made? Can he break it?
That sounded pretty iron clad. Especially since it was made between knowledgable and experienced death eaters who were being dead serious?.

Is there some loophole that would allow him to get out of the pact? For instance, was his agreement that he would kill Dumbledore if Draco couldn't? Or was it that he would help draco if he couldn't go through with it? There is a huge difference between the two situations.

[War Movie Mania]

Honestly, there is only two situations in which I wouldn't be angry about...

1. Dumbledore isn't really dead (people in the wizard world don't have to know, just the reader)

or

2. Snape really is evil. If they find some way to justify killing Dumbledore just so snape can 'get closer to Voldemort' or something I'll just be pissed off! Grr, makes me angry just thinking about it.

But then again, well just have to wait until book 7 to find out. There may be lots of things we don't know about yet that could have effected Snape. I think in the next book there will be a long section explaining the events in the very end of book 6. Damn you Rowling, write faster!!!

[BorderEevilIII]

What happend at the end of "Blood Prince" I said noooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Not Him! But at least at the end of the book there was something positive that came out. What I mean is in reference to the initals. And yeah we have to find out in the next book what JK has in store for us. As for Snape...... uhhhhh no comment :D

[Watur2Phunk]

Originally posted by psudoazn
What about the blood pact that Snape made? Can he break it?
That sounded pretty iron clad. Especially since it was made between knowledgable and experienced death eaters who were being dead serious?.

Is there some loophole that would allow him to get out of the pact? For instance, was his agreement that he would kill Dumbledore if Draco couldn't? Or was it that he would help draco if he couldn't go through with it? There is a huge difference between the two situations.

I just reread the book and they never clearly state what the unbreakable vow Snape and Narcissa made was, they keep it hidden, it might have been that Draco had to get Death eaters in Hogwarts or something else, I'm starting to believe Dumbledore is not dead.

[inglourious basterd]

Originally posted by Watur2Phunk
I'm starting to believe Dumbledore is not dead.

The first step is denial, my friend. ;)

But seriously, you may be on to something. I was too lazy to pick up the book again, so I searched the net. =p This is what I found from enwikipedia. It really puts things into perspective.

Now...its possible that it is entirely incorrect (I have not yet taken the time to re-read HP6). But it seems to correspond with what Waltur is alleging:

Professor Severus Snape, the once Potions master and later Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher at Hogwarts, takes the Unbreakable Vow while at Spinner's End to prove his sincerity to Narcissa Malfoy and Bellatrix Lestrange in Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince. Bellatrix doubted Snape's loyalty since he has been working for Albus Dumbledore ever since Lord Voldemort was first defeated. Since Narcissa's son, Draco Malfoy, has been assigned a task by Voldemort that is far above his ability to accomplish, Narcissa wants Snape to help him and do it for him if Malfoy fails. Snape takes the vow to show his support. Nothing in the scene makes it explicitly clear that Snape really knows what he is swearing to do.

It is unclear whether or not Snape knew what Draco's task was when he took the vow. He told Narcissa and Bellatrix that he did, but was later seen trying to get Draco to tell him what it was. It was ultimately revealed that Draco's task was to murder Dumbledore. When it became clear that Draco was unable to do so, even with the help of his fellow Death Eaters, Snape arrived at the scene and paused to take in the situation. Dumbledore pleaded -- though there is debate over whether he was pleading for his life, death, or something else. Snape gazed at Dumbledore for several moments with "a look of revulsion and hatred on his face" [HP6](p. 595 US/556 UK) and then used the killing curse on him, thereby fulfilling his vow.

[inglourious basterd]

In order to pound this issue into thr ground by arguing about tedious specifics, I want to ask about "the look for hatred on Snape's face" as he did the unforgivable curse.

For those of you who believe that Snape may have possibly been on the good side, what do you think that is about? It seems to suggest that Snape was malicious in his actions.

Isn't it a little bit of a stretch for us to extrapolate that he was acting when he had the expression of hatred? Or Wouldn't it be a stretch for us to imply that he had hatred of the fact that he had to commit this action?

The word 'hatred' is very very strong and very deliberate. I dont know guys. =p I'm still leaning toward the idea that Dumbledore is long gone.

[War Movie Mania]

I'm still hoping that Snape is really evil, and that Dumbledore is reall alive and used that as a test to see Snape's true colors.

If Snape kills Dumbledore in the name of good, that just seems like the biggest cop-out ever.

[inglourious basterd]

I'm slowly preparing for HP4. Saw Sorcerer's Stone tonight. It was very interesting. It was the first time I've read or watched any of the books since I read book 6.

I noticed two things of importance:

1. Snape openly fought to protect Potter when Professor Quirrel was cursing him. Slightly before that, Snape wished him luck and gave him what seemed to be a respectful 'congratulations' for being able to take down the troll. It is the only time in the film where we see that Snape didn't have a hateful tone toward Potter. But this must be pretty deliberate. If Snape was genuinely a deatheater, then he would have been a deatheater all along.

2. The Sorcerer's stone allows the opportunity to create elixirs that create immortality. Unlike the Unicorn blood, there doesn't seem to be any negative repercussion to consuming it. (When unicorn blood is consumed, the book says that in exchange for increased mortality, the cost for killing the unicorn is a life somewhat like deatheaters in LOTR). Even more interesting is the fact that Nicholas Flamel, the original keeper of the stone, created a stockpile of these immortality potions. This opens the possibility to the fact that Dumbledore could have easily requested a few potions in the event that his death was staged. Could it have been? I don't know. But is it possible? Certainly.

Despite these conspiracy theories, I still would prefer that Dumbledore stays dead. I think that his death was powerful. It was gutsy literature and I hope that she doesn't water it down by revitalizing him. Even though I loved Dumbledore, I genuinally liked the fact that his strength was also his weakness.

[ladygrim]

you know i really do hope he's evil and not just pretending to be because he made a promise to narcissa i hope he killed dumby for his own reasons and not saving malfoys neck ...

you cant give us a real twist in the book then say it was fixed it would really annoy thre hell out of me plus ive been hopeing that snape would admit he was evil from the beginning

[Horror whore]

Originally posted by psudoazn
In order to pound this issue into thr ground by arguing about tedious specifics, I want to ask about "the look for hatred on Snape's face" as he did the unforgivable curse.

For those of you who believe that Snape may have possibly been on the good side, what do you think that is about? It seems to suggest that Snape was malicious in his actions.

Isn't it a little bit of a stretch for us to extrapolate that he was acting when he had the expression of hatred? Or Wouldn't it be a stretch for us to imply that he had hatred of the fact that he had to commit this action?

From the chapter The Cave when Harry was forced to make Dumbledore drink the fluid:

"Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back towards Dumbledore's mouth...." pg. 571

When Snape was about to "kill" Dumbledore:

"Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." pg. 595

Could it be the same kind of hatred?

[War Movie Mania]

Excellent quotes Horror whore! That certainly helps convince me that Snape may not be evil.

[inglourious basterd]

Dan discusses Snape's redeeming quality
Posted by GERI
Source: VH1.com

In an interview leading up to the release of Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire, Daniel Radcliffe has some interesting things to say about Snape and that maybe, just maybe Snape will redeem himself in the last book. He also discusses filming with Ralph Fiennes and the underwater scenes.


VH1: Do you hate Alan Rickman's character Severus Snape as much as I do now after reading Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince?

Dan Radcliffe: Unless he's like a double double double double spy! That's the thing: Alan Rickman knows the truth about his character! He knows. He has got information from J.K. Rowling -- I think probably the only person in the world, but he knows about Snape!

VH1: Wow!

Dan Radcliffe: You just don't know. If you'd read the first book, and somebody had told you what was going to happen in the fourth, you would never have believed them. But by the time you get to the fourth, there is an utterly logical and satisfactory explanation for everything that happens. If anyone's gonna come up with Snake being a double double double double spy and make it believable, it will be J.K. Rowling.

VHI: You've speculated that Harry might not get out of the whole thing alive. I don't know if that was before you read the sixth book. Now I don't see how he can handle Voldemort on his own.

Dan Radcliffe: Really? I think there has got to have been something between Snape and Harry's mum in it. I don't know that for sure. But I mean, based on what you sort of seeing in the fifth book, I think there was something more to their relationship. I certainly think you're right, and I'm not sure Harry could take him on alone, unless there's a very big event that really hardens Harry and strengthens him halfway through the seventh. I don't think he's a powerful enough wizard. Maybe that will be Snape's redeeming quality!


http://www.vh1.com/movies/movie/239761/news/articles/1513756/story.jhtml

[War Movie Mania]

Alan Rickman knows the truth about his character! He knows. He has got information from J.K. Rowling -- I think probably the only person in the world, but he knows about Snape!

Wow. What a juicy little secret to be carrying! Maybe he will let it slip in an interview on accident.

One can only hope... :D

[inglourious basterd]

Originally posted by War Movie Mania
Wow. What a juicy little secret to be carrying! Maybe he will let it slip in an interview on accident.

One can only hope... :D


LOL. For some reason, I dont think that RIckman would be happy about Harry revealing this to everyone. But Rickman strikes me as the type that is able to keep his mouth shut. Radcliffe, on the other hand, is probably not someone that I'd trust.


But Radcliffe is right. Is potter strong enough to take on Voldemort?

In each of the books, there is no way that he would have been successful had it not been for the interventions of others. Additionally, a great deal of his power (e.g. his ability to speak the snake language) is due to the fact that he passively acquired it from Voldemort during infancy.

[ANTBond007]

I believed Snape killed Dumbledore on orders when I first read the book. To begin with, Hagrid mentions overhearing Snape and Dumbledore arguing over something -- that Snape didn't want to go through with it, and Dumbledore said he's already sworn. Further, the aforementioned "hatred/revulsion" and "Severus, please..."

But the biggest clue is in Order of the Phoenix, I think. The whole book involves Voldemort trying to break into the Ministry of Magic to steal the Prophecy. Harry and friends arrive and generally get the shit kicked out of them by Death Eathers. Who sends the calvary to save the kids, thereby destroying the prophecy and denying Voldemort what he wanted so much?

Snape.

[inglourious basterd]

If you guys want to see a video clip of Radcliffe talking about his theories, you could watch that here.

http://www.hpana.com/news.19108.html

I just want to say, though, that I'm appreciative of all the input here. I think that, collectively, we have thought up theories that not all of us would have thought up as individuals. And I think that we are making rather informed hypotheses. Thanks all! Lets keep it coming.

[inglourious basterd]

Interesting article regarding this topic on Veritaserum:

http://www.veritaserum.com/editorials/?view=48

Interestingly enough, some of the evidence mentioned above were mentioned in this article. I don't buy all the points in this article (specifically the stuff about Lily Potter), but it is certainly well-written and well thought out.

Harry Has it Wrong!
by The Dungeon Queen
August 21, 2005


Spoiler Warning: This editorial is laden with major plot details from book six, Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince - read at your own risk!

As I finished my second reading of “Half Blood Prince,” I badly needed a tangible, logical explanation for Severus Snape’s actions. Some fellow Harry Potter fans are convinced Snape is still loyal to Voldemort and others write convincing cases that Snape is acting according to Dumbledore’s instructions. In spite of its magical setting, it appears to me that all of the characters in the Harry Potter universe act reasonably and rationally based on their life experiences. What, then, can possibly motivate Severus Snape to act as he does in books one through six and what importance will this have in the final book of the series?

Harry believes he knows why Snape betrayed his parents to Voldemort and joined Dumbledore in his fight against the Dark Lord. In understanding Snape, however, Harry has it wrong - at least partially wrong. After Dumbledore's death, Remus Lupin, Professor McGonnagall, Harry, Ron, Hermione, and others are in the hospital wing discussing why Dumbledore was so certain of Snape’s loyalty. Harry is convinced he knows the reason and shares the following with his friends:
“‘I know," said Harry, and they all turned to look at him. ‘Snape passed Voldemort the information that made Voldemort hunt down my mum and dad. Then Snape told Dumbledore that he hadn't realized what he was doing, he was really sorry he' done it, sorry that they were all dead.’...’And he didn't think my mother was worth a damn either.’ said Harry, ‘because she was Muggle-born...'Mudblood,' he called her...’” p. 616 (American edition)

I am convinced Harry has Snape’s story only partially correct. Snape did tell Voldemort about the prophecy, but Harry is wrong about Snape's feelings for Lily. I think Snape cared a lot more about Lily than Harry realizes. Dumbledore acknowledges how much Snape regretted his decision to tell Voldemort about the prophecy. "I believe it to be the greatest regret of his life and the reason he returned-" p. 549. However, Harry interrupts Dumbledore before he had finished his sentence. Harry again questions Dumbledore:
"How can you be sure Snape is on our side?"

Dumbledore did not speak for a moment; he looked as though he was trying to make up his mind about something. At last he said, "I am sure. I trust Severus Snape completely." p. 549.

It appears Dumbledore was thinking about telling Harry something more about Severus and his reasons for leaving Voldemort, but chose not to. Perhaps, Dumbledore had given Severus his word that he would never reveal Snape’s reasons for leaving Voldemort.

I think Severus loved Lily. He clearly hated James. Although he knew them both, it would not explain his distress and anguish in learning Voldemort’s plan to hunt them down and kill them. Loving Lily, however, would certainly provide more a credible explanation for his decision to leave the Dark Lord. Everyone listening to Harry’s explanation "seemed to be lost in horrified shock, trying to digest the monstrous truth of what happened." p, 617. They are so shocked by Dumbledore's death that nobody questions Harry’s assertions about Snape’s feelings for Lily. As readers, JKR is manipulating her readers to accept Harry's explanation as valid and accurate.

In the chapter "Flight of the Prince", as Harry battles Snape, Snape makes a very interesting comment to Harry. Harry attempts to use the Sectumsempra spell against Snape, and Snape responds angrily, "You dare use my own spells against me, Potter? It was I who invented them - I, the Half-Blood Prince! And you'd turn my inventions on me, like your filthy father, would you? I don't think so...no!" p. 604. From Harry’s potion book, we know Snape invented the Levicorpus spell, the Sectumsempra spell and many others. We also know James Potter used the Levicorpus spell to publicly humiliate Snape in front of Sirus, Lupin, Lily and a number of other Hogwart’s students. When Lily attempted to help Snape, he called her a filthy little mudblood. Perhaps this is the event that turned Lily away from Snape permanently. It was some time after this that she started dating James. Snape who was only a half-blood, hated James Potter the pure blood - who ultimately married Lily, had the popularity and respect from the other students, and who took recognition for the spells Snape invented. In spite of it all, Snape continued to love Lily. It is his love that that caused his remorse and agony when he learned of Voldemort’s intent to kill the Potters. Snape retained enough compassion and humanity that he had no stomach for killing and torturing people, especially people who were half-bloods such as himself or muggle-borns like Lily. Dumbledore continually reminds us of the power of love and its ability to overcome adversity and evil. Love for Lily is what kept Snape from surrendering himself to Voldemort.

I find it incredibly interesting in crafting and writing the consecutive chapters, "The Cave" and "The Lightning-Struck Tower," that JKR cleverly structures the earlier chapter to foreshadow the later chapter. Both Harry and Snape act in ways that can be interpreted as following Dumbledore’s orders, and identical verbiage is used to describe both Harry and Snape’s emotions as they are commanded to do the unthinkable. The following describes Harry when he forces Dumbledore to drink the potion: "Hating himself, repulsed by what he was doing, Harry forced the goblet back toward Dumbledore's mouth and tipped it.” p. 571. Snape is described as follows right before he kills Dumbledore: "Snape gazed for a moment at Dumbledore, and there was revulsion and hatred etched in the harsh lines of his face." p. 595. I must admit I believe Snape was acting according to Dumbledore’s instructions and is no longer loyal to Voldemort. Snape hates Harry, he hates James, but he always loved Lily and continues to be loyal to Dumbledore in spite of killing him.

In the final book of the Harry Potter series, the remaining portion of Snape's story will unfold. In book six, Harry learned more from the Half-Blood Prince through his potions book than he learned from any other teacher. In Snape's first DADA lesson, Snape attempts to teach Harry and his fellow students how to execute spells without a wand. Even when Snape and Harry are fleeing Hogwart's, Snape continues taunt Harry telling Harry what he has to learn to succeed against Snape and the Death Eaters. "Blocked again and again and again until you learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter." p. 603.

It will require immense talent and skill to break the magic protecting each of the remaining Horcruxes. Dumbledore, who was the greatest wizard of his time, lost his hand obtaining one Horcrux and was almost killed in his effort to obtain the other. Dumbledore might well have died had Draco and the Death Eaters not drawn him to the Astrology tower. One of the Death Eater even comments on Dumbledore's pale and weak condition. "He's not long for this world anyway, if you ask me!" said the lopsided man..." p. 594. Harry must learn a great deal before he will be powerful enough to crack the magic and destroy the remaining four Horcruxes and defeat Voldemort. Snape is the one person remaining who understands Voldemort’s mind and has the knowledge and expertise to help Harry. Harry will have to learn to trust Snape and become his student again before he will have the skills to defeat Voldemort. Snape will have to set aside his hatred of James to help and teach Harry to vanquish the Dark Lord. In spite of their differences, love drives and motivates them both.