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Old 11-24-2012, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by poopontheshoes7 View Post
I completely disagree. Once the city started blowing up it felt as chaotic as anything else that happened in the previous movies. If you think about it, Bane did what the Joker failed to do. The film didn't have Jokers maniacal edge, but I feel it was just as unpredictable as far as how events would play out.
Okay, let's thresh this one out a bit. Most superhero films, TDKR included, have a plot where there's this big fight at the end, and hero wins it. Usually, he's punched his way there. Generally, plots have an ending. Bane wasn't about creating chaos, for its own sake, he created Chaos to serve his bigger purpose (or Talia's bigger purpose, depending on your POV): finishing Ra's job, and destroying Gotham. Not bringing Gotham to its' knees, destroying it, as in wiping it off the map. As mad as that is, its a "rational" (quoted because everyone in Gotham city is insane. If you live there, or just get your mail delivered there, guess what? You're kukoo for Cocoa Puffs.) objective. Once the hero figures out what the objective is, he can take steps to thwart it, as Batman eventually does.

In TDK, the Joker wants to bring Gotham to its knees, and then what? What does he want out of that? Revenge? No. Money? No. Fame? No. He goes through an awful lot of trouble to do what he does, and the reason basically is to show human beings what they are really like. To get the people of the city to eat each other. To show Batman how futile his quest to help his city really is. Suppose he succeeds. Then what? The city is still standing, and its filled with lunatics, but that's what the situation was before. That's the thing with the Joker, his motives make sense to only one person, himself. Chaos, in this case, is a function of that randomness. If you live in Gotham city, there are two kinds of people you could be: the kind Bane wants to kill, to further his plan, and the kind Bane wants to kill when the bomb goes off and levels the city. The Joker has only one category: people he wants to kill. No reason, just people he wants to kill.

If you think about the ending to TDRK, the plot was foiled. Bane was defeated. Talia is dead. The bomb goes off but doesn't kill anyone. A lot of people died, but the city is still standing. If you think about the ending to TDK, Nolan borrows one of the classic Joker stories and ends the film with a fascinating sequence: in order to defeat the Joker, in order to prevent him from "winning", Gordon and Batman have to lie, they have to engage in treachery and deceit (which goes against the character of both men) to keep the crooks Dent put away behind bars. This kind of Bargain, this spreading a lie to promote a greater good is something that has happened at the end of a Joker story more than once.

The most famous such instance was how the Tim Drake Affair was sorted out in the flashback sequence of Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. At the end of TDK, you don't know whose won or lost. The Joker is still alive ("I have a feeling you and I are destined to do this forever") the crooks are still behind bars, but the Joker used and destroyed Harvey Dent. It feels like Batman and Gordon lost, they may have gained their larger objective: keeping the crooks in jail, and bringing the Joker to Justice, but that objective exacted a horrible personal price (Rachel died, Dent betrays everything he stood for and dies, Gordon and Batman are forced to lie, and Batman is taken out of the picture in Gotham for eight years). The "win" over the Joker is pryrric. That's what makes Mr. J the greatest, you can beat him, but you won't escape unscatched. You'll know you were in a fight.

For the record, this isn't to say that I didn't think TDKR wasn't an awesome flick, I think I gave it a very good review (don't remember if I posted that here or not). Just that the tone and style was different from TDK, which was the film I preferred. Also for the record, I probably wouldn't have done the movie the way Nolan did in TDK either, but to each his own preferences.

Last edited by soda; 11-24-2012 at 09:22 PM..
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