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Old 11-30-2012, 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post

You also mentioned that people can just work hard for a few years and get wage increases - another problem. At a lot of service/retail positions, they dont offer wage increases. And if you ask for one, often times you're just fired, so they can bring in a teenager who gets paid less. Happens all the time.

How the hell is raising minimum wage bad?
Businesses can fire you for asking for a raise? That almost never ever happens. And if it does so what? Then either the job is terrible and perhaps you should find a different job that eventually offers raises or you really aren't doing a good job to deserve that raise. Getting a raise isn't a right. A free man has no right to more of another man's property. Neither does a free man have a right to associate with another free man.

Ive also said this before but not here - a really good way to fix the unemployment rate is for the government to somehow offer incentives to employers to offer more full-time positions for their employees. Not necessarily higher wages, or better/more benefits. Just 40 hrs/week. Why does this help? Because many in the working poor have two (or more) jobs. They beg for full-time positions, but never get them, despite working in the same place for years. But if they had full-time positions, they could leave their 2nd job, freeing up millions of part-time positions for others.
So then they'll just give them cheaper full time jobs that would pay almost as much as if it was part time all the while giving existing businesses unfair advantages over emerging businesses or businesses yet to be formed. A business is meant to run efficiently if there's work then work has to be paid for. It would be wildly inefficient for a business to have a worker who sits on their ass half the time when the work isn't needed. And where do we get this 40 hours a week from? Why not 50? Why not 30?

Not a full proof plan, but if one person taking up 3 jobs just to make a liveable wage became 3 people with 1 full-time position each making a liveable wage, well you can see the benefit.
No I don't see the benefit because someone has to pay more money for work that doesn't exist or isn't needed. You honestly don't see any unintended consequences snowballing into a huge massive cluster fuck down the line?

Are you saying education isnt a right? Jesus. So because everyone's educated, education is worth nothing? That's crazy.
Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we should restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education. That's crazy? Oh yeah because you say so.

Again, most 1st world countries offer free Higher Education to their citizens, because they understand that an educated population is the greatest investment they can make in their countries.
If its so important to you and your children then you should pay for it. Public education has been getting worse and worse because we're trying to pay less for a more demanding service. Also again using 1st world countries as an example is extremely short sighted and narrow minded. "Don't try something unless it has already been tried."

Not only do we not offer free education, we charge the highest for it, including scam for-profit colleges that charge as much as they want and offer phony degrees that are worthless in the real world. No other country does that shit. No other country puts their TEENAGERS in massive, massive debt just when they're trying to get their lives started. Why would they?
Who's forcing teenagers by gunpoint to take on massive debts? Again supply and demand. You're not going to wave a magic wand and its going to stay cheap forever.

And if you make a mistake, or if the job market with which you are educated changes, and you want to go back to school - you can't. Because its too expensive. OFten times college is one-shot deal. Get it right the first time or not at all. Either way, you're still fucked with student debt.
As for reasons why I explained why student debt is so expensive in the first place above.

Remember about 50 or so years ago, after the war, the government started offering free college tuition to degrees that were in high demand, like engineering. Why? Because they knew then that we were falling behind in key areas that could drastically affect our country down the line. It wasnt a handout. It was an investment in the future of this country.
And how did that "investment" turn out? Government never invests in anything efficiently and especially not in the long term.

I think you're incredibly far removed from the way the world actually works now. Simply working hard doesnt necessarily guarantee success anymore.
Life isn't a guarantee. Whoever said anything was a guarantee? Please quote me. I'm really getting sick of this demand from perfection from my side. Always interpret any criticism of government programs or intervention as a demand for perfection and attack such a demand as unrealistic. "You think if everyone works hard everyone will be a billionaire." NO!!! I'll tell you one thing that's a guarantee whenever government sticks its fat nose into something it fucks everything up.

You find it offensive to raise the minimum wage because then people who worked hard for years would be mad? Well guess what, I worked hard in college and I Still got paid the same as some 16 year old kid when I started. You dont magically get a raise just because of a degree.
What are you talking about? Its your responsibility to find a job with better pay and I never said it was magic or automatic. Again nothing is guaranteed! I never said anything to the contrary. You seem to be the ones who are guaranteeing things. Nobody got a raise from $5.25 an hour to $7.00 an hour over a few years for being a loyal good employee to only see now their $7.00 an hour is now the same wage every new employee is guaranteed to just because some politician said so? All that loyalty and good work back to the minimum again. And you don't think there isn't anybody who got raises from $7.25 to $10? But now you want their loyalty and hard work back to the minimum again.

The real working poor, the ones with families to support, the ones that dont have a mama to move in with, they work their asses off, they raise families, they work 3, 4, 5 jobs just to have enough to eat. And you think thats just because theyre uneducated, becuse they dont work hard, because they havent earned it, because they're havent "grown up"?? What kind of a compassionless monster are you? I dont think you have any clue how hard these people work.

Helping people that work hard is not a handout. It's compassionate. It's fair. It's kind. It's also an investment in the future.
Your "help" is pointing a gun at someone's head and forcing them to surrender more of their property. How compassionate.

And yeah awesome calling me a monster. Nothing more to discuss here. Again more name calling and it seems to be coming to the left. I'm getting sick of this shit and had enough.
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