#81  
Old 09-03-2008, 11:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceD View Post
"I have addressed this in past posts and made my point very clear. Take the time to look for it yourself. Do the other side of the coin and point out where people have not addressed my questions either. Thank you."

I've re-read your posts here, and no, you have not addressed what you would do if you or someone you loved was the one being executed for a crime they didn't commit. You've mentioned that you don't really care and that you "won't lose sleep" over them, but clearly if you did know the person being executed, you would at least lose a little sleep, right?

Listen: There are all kinds of arguments made in the realm of politics, and quite often people bring up minor, crazy-rare cases that are not relevant. But we are dealing with HUMAN LIFE here. One person executed wrongly is way too much, REGARDLESS OF WHATEVER OTHER CRIMES THE PERSON COMMITED. Would you personally shoot and kill ten people if you knew that ten were murderers and one was innocent? What about 1 out of 100? Out of 1,000? You have stated that you are willing to dismiss 16 wrongly executed people. What if you knew one of those? What if the government told you they were going to kill someone you loved who was innocent, but if they killed that person they'd be able to kill 10 murderers? Would you be okay with that?

I'm not coming down on you, so please don't give me a baloon or make some funny remark, please address what I've brought up. I'm still having a hard time how you can DISREGARD the lives of 16 people. Of one person.
I respect the way you have addressed me and the issue. Very mature. Thank you. You deserve a balloon, but you said you don't want one, so I will not.

I am the type of guy likes to look at the bigger picture. If the death penalty was a real deterrent to crime, I would not sweat it at all if an innocent life if lost in the name of the bigger picture. I do not believe in the death penalty in its current form though. We can talk about "what ifs" all day and night. If someone I knew who was innocent was sent to their death, it would be sad. That is it.

The process that has to happen in order for a person to be put to death is very long and expensive. One has to be found guilty, usually by a jury of one's piers beyond a reasonable doubt. One has to lose a series of appeals. It takes years for a death row person to be put to death. With today's technology the amount of innocent people who are out to death should be almost no one. I am not going to scrap a whole system, because of a minority of people who turned out to be innocent were put to death. But, like I said, I do not think the death penalty is a deterrent or economical.

You personally need to remember you live in one of the most democratic and liberal areas in the USA. People do not think the same way we do in many parts of this county, Texas is a very different place altogether. As you get older and travel you will learn it first hand how different people are in this great country we live in. There are many people who will not like you just because you are from NY. It makes no sense, but some people do not make sense at all.

And I love the part of Huckabee's speech saying "I am not a Republican, because I grew up rich. I am a Republican, because I did not want to spend the rest of my life poor, waiting for the government to rescue me." I hope one day you will understand this and not be a liberal democrat, because this is what a being a Republican means to me


I lied. Small balloon.
  #82  
Old 09-04-2008, 05:15 AM
"I am the type of guy likes to look at the bigger picture. If the death penalty was a real deterrent to crime, I would not sweat it at all if an innocent life if lost in the name of the bigger picture. I do not believe in the death penalty in its current form though. We can talk about "what ifs" all day and night. If someone I knew who was innocent was sent to their death, it would be sad. That is it."

Here's my problem: It's not like you are making a war choice of risking the life of a soldier who chose a dangerous profession (which is not to say the soldier deserves to die, only that they know the risk). You are risking the government arresting, trying, and killing someone who may be 100% innocent. This has happened. This, to me, is an unacceptable risk, regardless of what it costs money wise. Yes, we can talk about the 'what ifs', and as I said earlier in most cases I agree that those are silly arguments. But when we are talking about innocent lives, I just have a hard time with it.

"The process that has to happen in order for a person to be put to death is very long and expensive. One has to be found guilty, usually by a jury of one's piers beyond a reasonable doubt. One has to lose a series of appeals. It takes years for a death row person to be put to death. With today's technology the amount of innocent people who are out to death should be almost no one. I am not going to scrap a whole system, because of a minority of people who turned out to be innocent were put to death. But, like I said, I do not think the death penalty is a deterrent or economical. "

I agree that it's neither a deterrent nor economical, but the economics shouldn't be the issue. If we are going to say we have the right to execute people, we need to give them the right to take as much time as they need to make any case that they shouldn't be executed. Why? BECAUSE WE HAVE SCREWED THIS UP MULTIPLE TIMES!!! Technology continues to get people off death row. An amount of money does nothing to convince me this is worth it.

"You personally need to remember you live in one of the most democratic and liberal areas in the USA. People do not think the same way we do in many parts of this county, Texas is a very different place altogether. As you get older and travel you will learn it first hand how different people are in this great country we live in. There are many people who will not like you just because you are from NY. It makes no sense, but some people do not make sense at all."

All right, I've tried, so help me out here: What in the world does this have to do with anything? Don't talk to me about 'getting older', bro, we are both adults here and I don't like being talked down to by a peer. I've lived in NY, Cali, Chicago, Milwaukee, Virginia, and Central America. Why assume I've never left my state, or that I don't know that some people don't like us New Yawkers? I don't think you are trying to be a prick here, but look back at what you said: Wouldn't it be pretty easy for me to interpret that as a totally condescending head-pat with a 'there-there little one' attitude? I mean, I appreciate the intent I suppose, but you just don't make friends in this arena by talking down to people you know nothing about. I'm honestly not offended...but don't you see how I could be?

"And I love the part of Huckabee's speech saying "I am not a Republican, because I grew up rich. I am a Republican, because I did not want to spend the rest of my life poor, waiting for the government to rescue me." I hope one day you will understand this and not be a liberal democrat, because this is what a being a Republican means to me"

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Does me not wanting to wantonly execute anyone I don't like make me a liberal? Why shove me into that box just because I don't line up in support of your ideas?
  #83  
Old 09-04-2008, 05:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleysDad View Post
I was looking around at tshirts and came across a couple that gave me a chuckle.







Good stuff.







Personally, I'm of the mindset that there are situations where the death penalty seems reasonable. I think there's been a lot of abuse of it, and people use it as a quick way to feel better about victimization. There's surely many cases where even the families of victims have regretted calling for and then getting the blood of someone. Then, as has been mentioned, there's always the risk of judging someone wrongly and without a doubt taking what isn't ours.

I suppose I'm okay with leaving it up to the state. That seems the most fair.
  #84  
Old 09-04-2008, 02:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceD View Post
Here's my problem: It's not like you are making a war choice of risking the life of a soldier who chose a dangerous profession (which is not to say the soldier deserves to die, only that they know the risk). You are risking the government arresting, trying, and killing someone who may be 100% innocent. This has happened. This, to me, is an unacceptable risk, regardless of what it costs money wise. Yes, we can talk about the 'what ifs', and as I said earlier in most cases I agree that those are silly arguments. But when we are talking about innocent lives, I just have a hard time with it.


Let me say this as nice as I can. STOP!!!!!!!!!! I answered you politely. I feel how I feel and you feel how you feel. I am not debating you on how I feel. If you feel my thoughts are not smart than you have to accept that some people are not so smart. I accept you for your thoughts. I think many of your thoughts are no so smart, but I am not trying to chance you or debate you on your thoughts, so stop.
  #85  
Old 09-04-2008, 02:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove View Post
I suppose I'm okay with leaving it up to the state. That seems the most fair.
I loved Calvin and Hobbs. Another thing I like about the old Republican party is more state's rights over more federal laws.
  #86  
Old 09-04-2008, 02:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleysDad View Post
Let me say this as nice as I can. STOP!!!!!!!!!! I answered you politely. I feel how I feel and you feel how you feel. I am not debating you on how I feel. If you feel my thoughts are not smart than you have to accept that some people are not so smart. I accept you for your thoughts. I think many of your thoughts are no so smart, but I am not trying to chance you or debate you on your thoughts, so stop.
Excuse me? Sorry, but I don't have to stop anything just because you don't like it. Am I suddenly not allowed to express the way I feel? Isn't the very point here to debate? I'm trying to be civil and act like and adult, you keep acting like a child by handning out balloons and bringing up totally irrelevant things. You also continue to insult me and you tried to imply that my opinion is somehow less worthy because I'm from a 'liberal' par of the country.

So no, I won't stop, but you can feel free to. Again: I'm allowed to express my opinion, no? I don't know why that bothers you so much that you need to scream at me (and so soon after you told me I need to grow up).
  #87  
Old 09-04-2008, 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleysDad View Post
If someone I knew who was innocent was sent to their death, it would be sad. That is it.
With all due respect... I don't buy that. I just don't believe that if somebody you cared about; friend, relative, lover, whatever was to die for something you knew, hell even just believed, that they did not do that you wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops to get that execution halted. To do anything else would, frankly, be inhuman and while I don't like or understand your politics I certainly don't believe that of you.
  #88  
Old 09-05-2008, 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceD View Post
Excuse me? Sorry, but I don't have to stop anything just because you don't like it. Am I suddenly not allowed to express the way I feel? Isn't the very point here to debate? I'm trying to be civil and act like and adult, you keep acting like a child by handning out balloons and bringing up totally irrelevant things. You also continue to insult me and you tried to imply that my opinion is somehow less worthy because I'm from a 'liberal' par of the country.

So no, I won't stop, but you can feel free to. Again: I'm allowed to express my opinion, no? I don't know why that bothers you so much that you need to scream at me (and so soon after you told me I need to grow up).
I never said to stop expressing your opinion. I asked you to stop debating with me. You asked a question. I answered. I am done with your stupid questions and you can't respect this. You and your opinion are irrelevant to me and my opinion. I also think you act like a spoiled child that keeps crying until you get your way. Grow up!

Quote:
Originally Posted by SAI View Post
With all due respect... I don't buy that. I just don't believe that if somebody you cared about; friend, relative, lover, whatever was to die for something you knew, hell even just believed, that they did not do that you wouldn't be shouting from the rooftops to get that execution halted. To do anything else would, frankly, be inhuman and while I don't like or understand your politics I certainly don't believe that of you.
That is OK that you don't buy it. You don't need to buy anything I say or think. It is enough to me that I buy it.
  #89  
Old 09-05-2008, 04:45 PM
Ashley, you make me LOL.
  #90  
Old 09-05-2008, 06:04 PM
"I never said to stop expressing your opinion. I asked you to stop debating with me. You asked a question. I answered. I am done with your stupid questions and you can't respect this. You and your opinion are irrelevant to me and my opinion. I also think you act like a spoiled child that keeps crying until you get your way. Grow up!"

The purpose of the forums is debate. You've made clear your opinions, and I haven't claimed that you haven't. If I want to continue the discussion by continuing to express my opinions, I can do that. You will just have to be okay with that. You don't have to respond. Instead, you choose to TELL ME TO STOP TALKING?!?!? On a public message board? This is honestly hilarious. You're point seems to be that YOU don't like me and my opinions, so I have to stop talking. Like you somehow are more important. Hilarious.

How am not respecting you? I'm stating opinoins. You have repeatedly told me to grow up, called me stupid, a spoiled child, and have said my points are "not so smart." But I'm the one being disrespectful. Right.

You also tell my I'm just "crying until [I] get [my] way." I'd honestly love for you to point out where or how I'm doing that. I'm not asking you to change your opinion (even though you have told me I need to change mine at least twice). It's funny that for one second you thanked me for being civil, and then you instantly turn on me for calling you out on your ignorance.

And I really wished you cared about someone in your life enough that you'd do more than shrug and say 'that's sad' if they were wrongly put to death. I will echo what others have said and say that I just don't believe you are that heartless. We don't have to agree on opinions, but I want to believe you don't actually believe that. To be clear: you've said that you'd be sad and wouldn't do anything else if that happened. If you mis-typed or something, please clear this up.
  #91  
Old 09-05-2008, 09:39 PM
[QUOTE=AceD;2859611The purpose of the forums is debate. You've made clear your opinions, and I haven't claimed that you haven't. If I want to continue the discussion by continuing to express my opinions, I can do that. You will just have to be okay with that. You don't have to respond. Instead, you choose to TELL ME TO STOP TALKING?!?!? On a public message board? This is honestly hilarious. You're point seems to be that YOU don't like me and my opinions, so I have to stop talking. Like you somehow are more important. Hilarious.
.[/QUOTE]

I find you to be like a woman. You always need the last word. You just can't leave it alone and respectfully move on from me on this issue, can you?
  #92  
Old 09-06-2008, 03:09 AM
"I find you to be like a woman. You always need the last word. You just can't leave it alone and respectfully move on from me on this issue, can you?"

Wow. I've shown you nothing but respect. You respond by calling me stupid (among other insults) and apparently to you calling me a woman is also an insult. Real grown up, bro.

As far as the having the last word thing...considering I could with 100% validity make the same accusation against you, that's a pretty silly insult. At least I try to talk about and respond to issues instead of telling people to shut up and insulting them.

You call my questions stupid, without explaining why, so I can only assume you believe they are stupid because you don't agree with the premise. Honestly, I don't understand what makes you so upset at me, and why instead of either responding or just ignoring you actually tell me to stop posting. That's what I'd like and explanation for. You tell me I always need the last word, but you are the one who decides to tell me to stop posting instead of just ignoring the whole thing. I've been nothing but civil and you continue to call me childish names. I never said or insinuated that you need to agree with me on my opinions, but apparently disagreeing with you is enough for you to turn on someone. Too bad.
  #93  
Old 09-06-2008, 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceD View Post
Wow. I've shown you nothing but respect. You respond by calling me stupid (among other insults) and apparently to you calling me a woman is also an insult. Real grown up, bro.

As far as the having the last word thing...considering I could with 100% validity make the same accusation against you, that's a pretty silly insult. At least I try to talk about and respond to issues instead of telling people to shut up and insulting them.

You call my questions stupid, without explaining why, so I can only assume you believe they are stupid because you don't agree with the premise. Honestly, I don't understand what makes you so upset at me, and why instead of either responding or just ignoring you actually tell me to stop posting. That's what I'd like and explanation for. You tell me I always need the last word, but you are the one who decides to tell me to stop posting instead of just ignoring the whole thing. I've been nothing but civil and you continue to call me childish names. I never said or insinuated that you need to agree with me on my opinions, but apparently disagreeing with you is enough for you to turn on someone. Too bad.
I am not even going to read what you write beyond the first paragraph. No you have not been respectful. I have repeatedly asked you to move on from me. I also read almost the exact same type of post to you in another thread, so perhaps you are the one with the problem. Since I gave you the opportunity to be the bigger man and you blew it, I will be the bigger man and stop replying to your posts in this thread.

I am done debating you in this thread.

One small point, it is really annoying that you do not quote in your posts. When we reply to you it is annoying to have to delete the part you did not quote properly. It just makes the posts so much longer in length.

Last edited by AshleysDad; 09-06-2008 at 10:50 AM..
  #94  
Old 09-06-2008, 12:26 PM
Does the death penalty actually deter crime, or does it just help perpetuate the incredibly violent culture?
  #95  
Old 09-06-2008, 04:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleysDad View Post
I am not even going to read what you write beyond the first paragraph. No you have not been respectful. I have repeatedly asked you to move on from me. I also read almost the exact same type of post to you in another thread, so perhaps you are the one with the problem. Since I gave you the opportunity to be the bigger man and you blew it, I will be the bigger man and stop replying to your posts in this thread.

I am done debating you in this thread.

One small point, it is really annoying that you do not quote in your posts. When we reply to you it is annoying to have to delete the part you did not quote properly. It just makes the posts so much longer in length.
Well there you go, buddy. Anything to make your life easier.

I'm glad that you've finally admitted that you don't even read my posts all the way through, that's been painfully obvious for a while now. I also don't think you understand the word 'respect'. Continuing to discuss after you want to stop is not being disrespectful. You are not in charge here. I can't 'move on' from you because I never 'moved to' you. I'm discussing a topic in a thread, which again is the purpose of doing this.

In all seriousness, please point out where I posted 'the exact same type of post' in another thread. I'd also like to know what kind of posts I do. I guess you mean informed and thought out and non-insulting.

Thanks for the laugh about the 'bigger man' comment. I think it's funny that you think you are the grown up but you are the one who's so worked up here. I've been nothing but respectful of your opinion, and you continue to call me names and not listen to what I say, and yet you are the 'bigger man'? There's nothing for me to walk away from. I'm sorry you wanted to fight. I guess if being respectful and not calling people names is 'blowing it' than I stand guilty. If you can find one point where I was disrespectful towards you, I'll gladly leave the forums forever and not continue to spread my types of post (whatever that is) around your forums. Again, though: Remember that me posting in a public forum when you'd prefer I stopped is not being disrespectful. If that's true, report me. Go ahead and e-mail a Mod and tell them I need to be banned because I continued to post in a forum after you called me stupid and told me to stop.

"Does the death penalty actually deter crime, or does it just help perpetuate the incredibly violent culture?"

It certainly doesn't deter crime, but it also doesn't do the latter. People have no problem being violent on their own.
  #96  
Old 09-06-2008, 11:10 PM
Child.





The death penalty only deters those who are smart enough to avoid such activities.
  #97  
Old 09-06-2008, 11:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleysDad View Post
Child.





The death penalty only deters those who are smart enough to avoid such activities.
I see what you're getting at, but I don't think the threat of the death penalty is the reason why a smart person doesn't participate in such activities. If someone does not engage in those activities purely because it may result in the death penalty, I would say that is not a smart person.
  #98  
Old 09-07-2008, 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by AshleysDad View Post
Child.





The death penalty only deters those who are smart enough to avoid such activities.
actually, i'd say that the death penalty only deters those who are forward-thinking enough to realize the death penalty could result, yet not smart enough to find a way to commit murder and not get caught.
  #99  
Old 09-07-2008, 05:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by countchocula View Post
I don't see the point in keeping murderers and child molestors alive. However, Ashley's Dad is out of his mind. I can't believe he hasn't been banned yet.

Or using our tax dollars to house, feed, educate and provide medical care for them when we can't do the same for our poor.

I agree with everything you said, Dom.
  #100  
Old 09-22-2011, 03:26 PM
This deserves a good bump for the Troy Davis execution. And for the United States status for their death penalty rate, check this article here.

http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Globa...eople/Pakistan

From the article


"Death penalty: Top 5 countries to execute the most people
According to Amnesty International’s annual Death Sentences and Executions report, at least 527 people were executed in 23 countries in 2010, plus thousands in China. The number of people executed worldwide since 2007 is more than 2,500. Here are the five countries registering the most executions since 2007"

I hope someday that all states banned this barbaric system but Texas and quite few Southern states will probably keep the current capital punishment system in place.

And I think to myself

What a cruel world.
  #101  
Old 09-22-2011, 03:43 PM
It's time like these, seeing ancient threads revived and re-reading AshleysDad crazy posts, that makes me want to argue with him and Lynn7 again. No matter how fucked up their positions were, their posts gave you a good laugh.

The recent state murder of Troy Davis is just another reason why capital punishment should really be looked at through a telescope by the states that still abide by it. Shitty justice systems aside, the actual means of carrying out this barbaric "justice" is outdated and offers no means of rehabilitation into the society that failed him.
  #102  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:23 PM
With the killing of those school children in mind, I thought I'd give this thread a bump. I'm interested in what the consensus is, and if anyone has a change of mind being that Connecticut just repealed the death penalty this year.
  #103  
Old 12-15-2012, 06:32 PM
.

Last edited by SS-Block; 03-31-2014 at 05:47 PM..
  #104  
Old 12-16-2012, 01:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
With the killing of those school children in mind, I thought I'd give this thread a bump. I'm interested in what the consensus is, and if anyone has a change of mind being that Connecticut just repealed the death penalty this year.
Try asking that again, only with replacing "death penalty" with "strict gun control."
  #105  
Old 12-16-2012, 02:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
With the killing of those school children in mind, I thought I'd give this thread a bump. I'm interested in what the consensus is, and if anyone has a change of mind being that Connecticut just repealed the death penalty this year.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbird View Post
Try asking that again, only with replacing "death penalty" with "strict gun control."
OK.

Quote:
With the killing of those school children in mind, I thought I'd give this thread a bump. I'm interested in what the consensus is, and if anyone has a change of mind being that Connecticut just repealed the strict gun control this year.
But that's not true, why would I ask that?
  #106  
Old 12-16-2012, 09:43 AM
I don't see the purpose of the death penalty other than to satisfy some sense of retribution for the victims family and friends. The whole notion of an eye for an eye is rooted in old fashion law procedures. This problem becomes more apparent when courts sometimes hear cases of evidence coming out where someone was falsely accused and sent to prison for a crime they didn't commit or were given a sentence on unjust grounds. Now, what if this were to occur for someone who was put to death? I'm sure it's happened many times, so why continue offering it as an alternative? I don't want to really dwell too much into religion, but it seems that with the idea of putting someone to death ending their life here so they can then be punished in some metaphysical dimension (Hell) is completely problematic (this does not mean I'm saying that all proponents of the death penalty are religious). Then there's of course the issue of cost of death penalties versus life without parole.
  #107  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post


But that's not true, why would I ask that?
You know what I mean. How about we make efforts to prevent these kinds of crimes instead of focusing on how we punish the criminal? A more robust gun control system is clearly needed, but we need more than that. It would appear that many of these kind of gunmen have serious mental issues and could have used access to mental health clinics in some way. And that ties into our whole fucked up health care system.

The point is, if we actually put some real fucking energy into problems like this, we might be able to accomplish something, but the NRA gun-nut pussy crybabies will do anything they can to prevent it.
  #108  
Old 12-16-2012, 06:48 PM
  #109  
Old 12-16-2012, 07:30 PM
30,000+ traffic fatalities yearly in the United State vs 2,000 traffic fatalities in the UK. God bless America.
  #110  
Old 12-16-2012, 07:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbird View Post
You know what I mean. How about we make efforts to prevent these kinds of crimes instead of focusing on how we punish the criminal? A more robust gun control system is clearly needed, but we need more than that. It would appear that many of these kind of gunmen have serious mental issues and could have used access to mental health clinics in some way. And that ties into our whole fucked up health care system.

The point is, if we actually put some real fucking energy into problems like this, we might be able to accomplish something, but the NRA gun-nut pussy crybabies will do anything they can to prevent it.
How about we lock everyone in straight jackets into padded rooms. Hey its an effort to prevent crimes isn't it? Effort always equals good so doing that means it will be good. Illegaly owned/altered gun crimes or crimes by legal guns? There's a huge difference when you're discussing justifying more government encroaching laws. People who want to take away someone's god given natural right to defend themselves as if criminals or bears/wolves/rabid animals can always wait for you to call 911 to give you a running chance. If legal owners were running around killing everyone then maybe you'd have a point. In fact when more criminals are using guns for crimes that could also mean that not enough non-criminals own guns for the criminals to be worried about. A robber is going to think twice before robbing a store if he doesn't know for sure or not if the store owner has a shotgun behind the counter.

Also Connecticut has some of the strongest gun laws around. Strength doesn't always equal strength. Strengthen gun control by weakening law abiding individuals to protect themselves?

This whole conversation is completely moot anyway. It should be left up to the states to decide. Why do people think they have the authority to judge how people 2,000 miles away from them should live? Someone who lived 1 block away from the police station surrounded by a huge urban population might feel differently about guns than someone who lives an hour away from any police presence in a rural area.

Also Norway has no death penalty and Connecticut (just started this year) has no death penalty. This is the topic here not guns.

"NRA gun-nut pussy crybabies". How articulate.

Last edited by creekin111; 12-16-2012 at 08:02 PM..
  #111  
Old 02-27-2013, 09:14 AM
There's plenty worse crimes than killing a cat, or even teaching your kids to do the same. Yes, his actions were horrible, but I wouldn't condone killing him for them. He probably needs severe mental, emotional, and spiritual help. I do think his kids should be kept from him though.
  #112  
Old 02-27-2013, 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vong View Post
It's time like these, seeing ancient threads revived and re-reading AshleysDad crazy posts, that makes me want to argue with him and Lynn7 again. No matter how fucked up their positions were, their posts gave you a good laugh.
John Galt to...that mother fucker could argue 10 pages.
 

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