Larry David and the double standards in America

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by Hey Man

Sorry to piss on your theory, but what he did was hilarious. It was a picture of Jesus Christ - which I could have drawn for example. It doesn't become automatically sacred.

I'm not entirely sure which theory you think you're pissing on, but you've missed the target. The issue is the double standard, where some religions are protected.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by Buck Turgidson

That's rich.

If you believe I have, provide the quote.

[Buck Turgidson]

The frowny face goes with the subsequent comment.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

I'm sorry Bubba, but I haven't responded to either of your two posts. That which you replied to was a response to Smiert Spionam.

That's too bad because I feel I made a pretty sound and reasonable response as to why what Larry David did doesn't show a double standard but instead is a little more complicated and logical than you are making things out to be.

If it's of any interest to you, discussing something that can't be addressed via Chick Tracts in a style of Cross Fire Jr., my initial response is here - http://www.joblo.com/forums/showpost...9&postcount=46

If you'd rather not be presented with new ideas and continue addressing things that are of a black and white, us vs. them nature, you can look at Classic JoBlo threads.

Here's a thread on teachers being forced to drop lessons on the Holocaust to avoid offending Muslim students:

http://www.joblo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=109539

You can take special interest in the posts by Lynn7 and BeenThere's posts, as they reflect your feeling of a double standard.

[Pentangeli]

I did read them first time round. Despite the absence of a response, I haven't been ignoring you. Your post was full of statements which completely overlook what the main issue is -- double standards. You can't possibly expect me to waste time with every post which has nothing to do with the point of my thread. Here's a few of the statements you made:

-----

There's also been scores and scores of jokes about Jews involvement in the entertainment industry - I want to say Hollywood Shuffle made some, but can't place any specific sources for sure. Along the same lines, there's the jokes with the over-the-top Jewish stereotype who's running slums. These types of jokes happen so often in media that it's hard to even recall specific examples.

Well try to think of examples. I can't think of any.

Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people.

You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data.

-----

This thread is, and always has been, about the double standards. It's not about an isolated mocking of Christianity, or indeed Christians' reaction to that, it's about putting it in context of how the media treats other religions.

If I'm wrong, please provide me of an example of a non-Jewish person disrespecting Judaism, equal to the severity that David disrespected Christianity.

[Smiert Spionam]

Family Guy, S3 E22, "When You Wish Upon a Weinstein" - Entire episode

Y'know, I imagine that it would be hard for you to truly see how the media depicts different religions in a country that you, again, don't even live in. It's like me saying "Oh, the British media is over-saturated with programs aimed at homosexuals. That's discriminating against the heterosexual majority!" which would be stupid, since I don't like in the UK and have never been.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by Smiert Spionam

Family Guy, S3 E22, "When You Wish Upon a Weinstein" - Entire episode

Ricky Blitt, the writer, is Jewish.

And it doesn't sound like Judaism is being disrespected.

http://online-animated-films.suite10...uit_thrown_out

I'll see if its on Youtube.

[The Heart Collector]

Anyone that got offended by that episode is a little baby.

A little goddamned baby.

There was nothing offensive about the scene. It's exactly the same as almost every scene in the entire series: Larry David does something completely inappropriate with no self-awareness whatsoever, and is looked at negatively for it. How could anyone possibly think that was a religious insult, other than being a whiny little baby that needs his diaper changed and some powder for its red ass? Only if you have never seen a single episode of this show could you possibly think anything bad about it.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally Posted by Natty

Christians are the majority yes, but they are also the one group that people have no problem oppressing/insulting.

What a ridiculous and patently absurd comment. Christians in America don't get even remotely the same level of vitriol and harassment as Muslims.

The fact that you'd use the word "oppression" to refer to religious groups that actively prevent minorities (homosexuals) from obtaining equal civil rights is just downright offensive. Fuck all of those people. Who gives a shit if they're insulted.

[QUENTIN]

Larry David isn't Jewish. Ethnically, sure, but what we're talking all about here is religion and Larry David has been an athiest his entire adult life.

If I wrote a movie, as an agnostic, that had a scene making light of a Muslim practice, and someone identified it as an example of "Christians disrespecting Islam" because my parents practice a faith I don't believe in for a minute, well, I'd be upset and they'd be wrong. It'd be an athiest ribbing religion, not a person of a specific religion disrespecting another religion to make a critical point. In other words, it'd be just like this Larry David situation.

As noted, as an atheist, Larry David has made light of the faith and customs of Jews more than any other religious group on Curb, and also Muslims and Christians previously. In none of the examples is he disparaging the religion or offering a serious, scathing critique, but rather not taking the conviction seriously in order to set up a funny situation that offends another character on the show, creates a dilemma, and causes amusing hijinks. Another important point, brought up by Bubba, is that the peeing on the picture is totally unintentional. He's prescribed a medicine that makes his urine stream extra strong and someone else put a painting of Jesus near the toilet. The moment isn't "Argh! Fuck Christianity! I piss on your savior!" it's "Whoa! My pee is out control! Oh no, the painting! Whoops." So interpreting it as an attack of any sort is a spurious.

I'm trying to think of an equivalent to your whole argument, and the closest I can think of is someone who has never seen South Park watching an episode where Saddam and Satan are lovers and concluding it's another examples of religious folk pushing their hell is the afterlife for sinners views on the rest of us, criticizing Islam, and denigrating homosexuals. Heterosexuals never get that kind of treatment in the media!

It's just ignorant of the style and purpose of the show's humor, misinterprets the context and "message", not accurate to the history of what else they've made light of, and assumes a double standard where one simply does not exist for a show irreverent of everything under the sun.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Ricky Blitt, the writer, is Jewish.

And it doesn't sound like Judaism is being disrespected.

Larry David isn't a follower of Judaism either. You don't even know if Ricky Blitt is a practicing Jew.

You're mixing a lot of disparate elements here to come up with a ridiculous non-argument. It doesn't matter whether writers or comedians are ethnically Jewish or not, all it should matter is whether they practice the religion or not, since you're claiming a religious double standard, not a cultural one.


Anyway, as it should be blatantly obvious to anyone, most people don't know anything about almost any religion. The obvious religion to make fun of is Christianity, because people actually somewhat know about Christianity since the majority of the country is Christian. People make fun of Hinduism and Islam but in extremely general ways, because they don't know anything about it other than maybe there's some sort of elephant with arms they saw in The Simpsons and that oh ho ho muslims are poor and live in the desert, what a hoot. Since they don't know enough, they can't make enough jokes. Judaism is even less funny. The only concept of 'fun' that most people see in Judaism is funny hats and beards.

Questions about finding examples of Judaism-targetted humor in non-Judaism communities miss the point. The real question is, why would you even expect to find that?

People like Larry David and Woody Allen make fun of Judaism-related customs not because some sort of Jewish self-loathing, but because they know about it.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

I did read them first time round. Despite the absence of a response, I haven't been ignoring you. Your post was full of statements which completely overlook what the main issue is -- double standards. You can't possibly expect me to waste time with every post which has nothing to do with the point of my thread. Here's a few of the statements you made:

Well, first off, you say I overlooked the main issue - the one about double standards, then as an example, you provide where I address the issue of a double standard. In fact, I started off my post talking about double standards, and I also conclude the post talking about double standards, and how they don't apply here.

Even more notable, that you claim to have read something you didn't feel directly attacked the issue you were noting, and instead of realizing that the topic is being expanded on, you ignore it in lieu of focusing on broader statements not addressing the double standard. That makes it seem like you don't want to discuss things and are only looking to argue.

Well try to think of examples. I can't think of any.

Hollywood Shuffle. It was written by a black man and produced by a gentile. The movie was purchased for distribution by the Jewish Samuel Godwin who said of the movie, "My gut tells me this is funny. I don't get it because I'm an old Jew.' The movie grossed about $8 million domestically."

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/pro...carl_craig.htm

You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data.

Well, you said so yourself that only Jews make fun of Jews. This thread is full of examples and we could pull out more examples ranging from Woody Allen to Adam Sandler. If you don't want to accept your own basis for not accepting the mocking of Jews in Hollywood, and the lack of mocking of Christians or other religions by their own people, I'd love to see some examples of other religions mocking themselves more.

Of course, if you don't want to believe what up until you disagreed, seemed to be common knowledge on this thread, you can look sources that make Jewish humor notable by being "frequently self-critical and sometimes even self-deprecating." - quote taken from The Big Book of Jewish Humor.

I really can't believe that you are trying to argue that most Jewish humor doesn't make fun of Jewish culture. This seems like you are grasping for straws here, and trying to make me look out to be a fool.

Seriously, is anyone reading this going to argue that Jewish Humor isn't most widely recognized as self-depreciating?

The only question should be is if Jeff Foxworthy is the Larry David of rednecks.

This thread is, and always has been, about the double standards. It's not about an isolated mocking of Christianity, or indeed Christians' reaction to that, it's about putting it in context of how the media treats other religions.

It was your example of a double standard, not mine. If you don't think it's relevant, I guess this is something of an irrelevant point you are making now, isn't it?

If I'm wrong, please provide me of an example of a non-Jewish person disrespecting Judaism, equal to the severity that David disrespected Christianity.

Well, for starters, I explained how it's not as disrespectful as you are making it out to be, and I even asked you to show me where in The Bible is provides scripture saying it's wrong to piss on a picture of Jesus, and even went a bit further to point out that based on scripture, the actual sacrilege is making a picture of Jesus (it's in the 10 Commandments, so you don't even need to Google Book Search past the first book)

But for some reason, you decided that this had nothing to do with a double standard and chose to ignore it, or to remain ignorant, or to pretend you are doing as such, whichever way you want to look at it.

Secondly, you have been provided examples of non-Jews making fun of Jews, yet, you chose to again ignore these things.


Sorry Pent - You are the one sharing the unpopular view, so despite your positioning, and despite the fact that I have provided examples, and have backed up what I'm saying --- It's really you who are failing to provide any proof, since that burden is on you, not everyone else. No one is trying to change your mind, but I won't deny many people are having a walk in the park-styled field day showing how utterly wrong you are. If you want to keep making the same blanket statements without proof to back them up (the same statements you cite me for making) -- knock yourself out.

Discussions are a lot of fun, and it's nice having one with a person with a different perspective, no matter how rooted in cognitive distortions that perspective may be.

[Smiert Spionam]

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

Sorry Pent - You are the one sharing the unpopular view, so despite your positioning, and despite the fact that I have provided examples, and have backed up what I'm saying --- It's really you who are failing to provide any proof, since that burden is on you, not everyone else.

Pent is a big fan of asking people to provide "proof" of things, meanwhile, contributing no findings of his own....

Ask him his opinion on Alexander the Great's homosexuality, which is widely considered common knowledge.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by Smiert Spionam

Alexander the Great's homosexuality, which is widely considered common knowledge.

Excellent point, Smiert. The popular belief that Alexander was bisexual, despite there being no evidence to support it, just goes to show how asinine the popular opinion sometimes is.

[Smiert Spionam]

Great way to avoid everything that several posters all painstaking typed and directed at you, Pent.
Kudos...

[Pentangeli]

Hollywood Shuffle. It was written by a black man and produced by a gentile. The movie was purchased for distribution by the Jewish Samuel Godwin who said of the movie, "My gut tells me this is funny. I don't get it because I'm an old Jew.' The movie grossed about $8 million domestically."

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/pro...carl_craig.htm

The link doesn't work. Is that the film with Ivory Wayans?

Of course, if you don't want to believe what up until you disagreed, seemed to be common knowledge on this thread, you can look sources that make Jewish humor notable by being "frequently self-critical and sometimes even self-deprecating." - quote taken from The Big Book of Jewish Humor.

In that book will I find the data that you have used to formulate your assertion that, in your words: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people".

Sorry Pent - You are the one sharing the unpopular view

I've never cared about popularity contests. The "unpopular view" does not refer to its legitimacy.

people are having a walk in the park-styled field day showing how utterly wrong you are.

A few people have suggested material which allegedly contradicts my view. BCV mentioned Life of Brian, which does mock Judaism, as well as Christianity, but its quite tame, and a lot of material was censored/cut out of the film. An episode of Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle were also mentioned, and I will get round to watching them soon.

If you want to keep making the same blanket statements without proof to back them up

My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity. I'm hardly going to cite every output from the U.S media. At the moment, none of yous have proved me wrong -- pending Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle.

it's nice having one with a person with a different perspective, no matter how rooted in cognitive distortions that perspective may be.

There's no need for that. Let's keep this civil.

PS. Smiert, one post at a time, lad. I'm unable to reply to everyone at once.

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity.

David is a non-jew and he has disrespected Judaism and Islam just as much.

Bill Maher's Religulous: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

is about a non-jew athiest disrespecting, mocking, deriding, criticizing, and hating on Christianity (and Islam and Judaism, but Christianity gets the bulk of the mocking) for 100 solid minutes. It was released by "the media."

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

Larry David isn't Jewish. Ethnically, sure, but what we're talking all about here is religion and Larry David has been an athiest his entire adult life.

You're saying that non-Jews have ridiculed Judaism. Ok, I accept your point.

But still I ask, when has Judaism ever been mocked to the degree of Larry David pissing on a Christian icon -- whether intentional or otherwise?

As noted, as an atheist, Larry David has made light of the faith and customs of Jews more than any other religious group on Curb, and also Muslims

I haven't seen all the episodes. What would be a good episode to watch regarding the severity with which Larry David mocks/makes fun of Judaism and Islam?

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

Bill Maher's Religulous: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0815241/

is about a non-jew athiest disrespecting, mocking, deriding, criticizing, and hating on Christianity (and Islam and Judaism, but Christianity gets the bulk of the mocking) for 100 solid minutes. It was released by "the media."

Precisely my observation.

[Shinigami]

Well, from my experiences attacks on Christianity are a lot more popular, specific, derisive and everyday in the media than attacks on Judaism. These experiences are so constant that I think they ought to be obvious to anybody who is exposed to television. This ought to be a "duh" point. But it's not a double standard, right? Judaism isn't as prevalent in mainstream US talking points as Christianity is. Judaism isn't as noisy in the US public arena as Christiainity. There is an anti-religious voice in America and it starts its beef with Christiainity because Christianity is at the American forefront in the melodramatic back and forth between people of faith and people without.

The thread's "suggestion" doesn't really make sense to me yet unless I'm excusing it as an agenda piece. If you come to find the most popular and domestically-understood item is also the most talked about, why would you think automatically think double standard. Why would you use an out of context arbitrary example from a television show you don't watch as a starting point unless you've already formulated the idea, and if you've already formulated this conspiratorial suspicion I don't think very many people are going to continue bothering.

plzzzzzzzz

On the other hand, the quirks of mainstream censorship is an interesting talking point.

[The Heart Collector]

"My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity."

There is no disrespect to Christianity in the Curb Your Enthusiasm scene. After that scene, Jerry Seinfeld realizes what Larry did but they both keep quiet because they don't like the woman who owns the picture of Jesus (because she is slightly obese and wears low-cut shirts at the workplace, where Larry and Jerry are) and she has decided to quit her job. So since it benefits them, they keep quiet. It's not really disrespectful of the religion of Christianity, since the show isn't supportive of Larry's behavior. Portraying something on film does not mean that the creator agrees with those views, especially in this case: Larry David's entire character is 'guy that does horrible things'. I don't understand what you want from Curb Your Enthusiasm, or any show. Are Jews forbidden from portraying characters that do anything that could be interpreted as a slight on Christianity, or anything involving Christianity, regardless of the content? Because that's basically what you're advocating if you think this scene is inappropriate.

It is obvious that the scene isn't meant to be offensive towards religion. It's obvious because the scene, and the episode, wouldn't work otherwise. The humor of the episode comes from the fact that what happens is distasteful within the context of the episode, which the character knows. It's a funny scene because we know what happens is bad and is going to be perceived as rude, and it is a funny episode because since the character keeps hiding what he did, things spiral out of control, and he is ultimately caught. In that sense, the scene isn't disrespectful towards Christianity, it's respectful. It's respectful because it assumes that the audience will look at what happened as being a big deal and a reasonable cause for anger.

Anyway, there's a billion examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. They include the movie Saved!, the television show The Book of Daniel... hell, one of the biggest books in years, The Da Vinci Code, has ideas that are much more openly blasphemous than Larry David accidentally pissing on an image because he plays a douchy character. Stop looking for Jew conspiracies everywhere, you're coming across as seriously deranged and bigoted.

[ericdraven]

Originally Posted by BakeTheMooCow

One is a choice and the other isn't, so no.

I remember Richard Dawkins selling millons of copies of his book, The God Delusion. So, I guess there IS a voice.

[Hey Man]

I don't understand how anyone could disagree with the fact that the world would be such a better place if religion didn't exist.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

The link doesn't work. Is that the film with Ivory Wayans?

The link works fine for me. Maybe your area has sites like this blocked or something. I'd be interested to know if it worked for other people.

Here is the link again.

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/pro...carl_craig.htm

There's Wayans in the film, but you might be thinking I'm Gonna Get You Sucka. Hollywood Shuffle is primary Robert Townsend's send up of how blacks are portrayed in the media.

You may also want to check out Fear of a Black Hat, which is sort of a This is Spinal Tap for early gangster rap. In the movie, their manager is named Rabinow, a play on the colors used in Jewish names. The manager is also very stereotypical, with the "Vhats?" and so have you. This was a movie writen, directed, and produced by African-Americans, though I don't know their religion.

In that book will I find the data that you have used to formulate your assertion that, in your words: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people".

Again, I'm not sure that you really don't believe that they do.

You stated so yourself that Jewish jokes are primarily made by Jewish writers, so that statement right there would imply that closer to 100% of the time Jewish people make Jewish jokes.

If you want to now say that most Christian jokes are made by Christian writers, or all Muslim jokes are made by Muslim writers, etc., that's fine, but it also diminishes your stance on a double standard, as we are showing that primarily only religious folks make fun of their own religion, and in turn the examples you cite of Jews making fun of other religions are just as infrequent as the examples people have cited of other religions being made fun of.

You can't have it both ways, pal. Either all the Jew jokes are made by Jews, or Jews aren't the most self-mocking of the writers who identify themselves by religion.

So, you choose. If you want to keep arguing against one of the fundaments of your reasoning for citing a double standard, you can join in with the fun everyone else is having.

Not to mention, I haven't even started on the portrayal of Muslims by non-Muslim media sources. One example is Soul Plane.

I've never cared about popularity contests. The "unpopular view" does not refer to its legitimacy.

Well, I was stating this in the context of proving an argument, which, when there's 100 people saying one thing, and 1 person saying something else, it's not really up to the 100 people to prove something to that 1 person. I respect that your the resident Lone Wolf and that's cool by me, but don't think your making any points by doing what you say I'm not making points by doing.

In the context you are using "popularity" though, boy-oh-boy, you continue to pile on the contradictions.

You don't care about popular view, yet you start taking issue with the views of other religion in mainstream media. Meh, what's up Doc?

A few people have suggested material which allegedly contradicts my view. BCV mentioned Life of Brian, which does mock Judaism, as well as Christianity, but its quite tame, and a lot of material was censored/cut out of the film. An episode of Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle were also mentioned, and I will get round to watching them soon.

Okay, and in the meantime, I'll be watching the works of Sacha Baron Cohen, Woody Allen, Ben Stiller, Jerry Seinfeld, Sarah Silverman, Larry David, Mel Brooks and many others, all the while being on the look out for all these other cultures that defame their own.

My argument is that the media have never released anything from a non-jew which disrespects Christianity, relative to the disrespect David showed to Christianity. I'm hardly going to cite every output from the U.S media. At the moment, none of yous have proved me wrong -- pending Family Guy and Hollywood Shuffle.

My example of Hollywood Shuffle was in response to you saying there was no stereotypical treatment of Jewish characters by non Jewish writers.

Secondly, you still haven't taken it upon yourself to show how the bit in question was actually so deeply sacrilege. As I've now stated three times, making an image of Jesus is something that appears to be forbidden in the 10 Commandments. I might be wrong, and maybe that commandment was Amended, and I've asked to be taught if that's the case.

Still yet though, I've yet to see anything showing how peeing on a picture of Jesus disrespects the tenants of Christianity (compared to drawings of Muhammad, which directly disrespect tenants of Islam)

There's no need for that. Let's keep this civil.

No, you missed it. That was an old Jewish joke. Nah, I'm just fucking around. I didn't think you'd take umbrage with that, because you generally seem to have a sense of humor and I've never taken you to be the sort who thinks I would just fling mud at you in bad spirits. If you would rather I didn't joke as often, that's cool.

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

You're saying that non-Jews have ridiculed Judaism. Ok, I accept your point.

But still I ask, when has Judaism ever been mocked to the degree of Larry David pissing on a Christian icon -- whether intentional or otherwise?

I haven't seen all the episodes. What would be a good episode to watch regarding the severity with which Larry David mocks/makes fun of Judaism and Islam?

Please define how severe this is, because I think most people here aren't that convinced that it's that severe and understand that the joke was taken out of context.

As I stated earlier, I'm surprised the pissing on a picture issue is being played up, when I would suspect the whole false-belief thing surrounding seeing signs from God would have been a bigger issue for people.

Originally Posted by Shinigami

Well, from my experiences attacks on Christianity are a lot more popular, specific, derisive and everyday in the media than attacks on Judaism. These experiences are so constant that I think they ought to be obvious to anybody who is exposed to television. This ought to be a "duh" point. But it's not a double standard, right? Judaism isn't as prevalent in mainstream US talking points as Christianity is. Judaism isn't as noisy in the US public arena as Christiainity. There is an anti-religious voice in America and it starts its beef with Christiainity because Christianity is at the American forefront in the melodramatic back and forth between people of faith and people without.

The thread's "suggestion" doesn't really make sense to me yet unless I'm excusing it as an agenda piece. If you come to find the most popular and domestically-understood item is also the most talked about, why would you think automatically think double standard. Why would you use an out of context arbitrary example from a television show you don't watch as a starting point unless you've already formulated the idea, and if you've already formulated this conspiratorial suspicion I don't think very many people are going to continue bothering.

I suggested to him that it probably boils down to Jews already make so much fun of themselves, they take all the good jokes from everyone else. It's like a kid I knew in school who would always rag on himself for wearing K-Mart clothes, having big glasses, and being an all around dork. There was nothing no one could say to that guy that he hadn't already insulted himself with before. When people would try, he'd just outdo them. On one occasion someone tried to fight him, and surprise the dorky guy knew how to beat the shit out of people. Man, I wonder what happened to that guy --- probably working in Hollywood.

Anyway, he wanted to ignore the point of Jews making so much fun of themselves that there's no good jokes left in lieu of talking about providing statistics, and treating generalized truthisms as absolutes.

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

Anyway, there's a billion examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. They include the movie Saved!, the television show The Book of Daniel... hell, one of the biggest books in years, The Da Vinci Code, has ideas that are much more openly blasphemous than Larry David accidentally pissing on an image because he plays a douchy character. Stop looking for Jew conspiracies everywhere, you're coming across as seriously deranged and bigoted.

Yeah, but did they piss on a velvet painting of Jesus? Did they?



Hey, has anyone seen Born in East LA?

[JoBlo]

I saw the episode and thought it was "okay funny", but not really that hilarious! (I don't like when they exaggerate something to the point of unbelievability -- would ANYONE really believe that a picture of Jesus hanging right above the urinal would be "crying"....gimme a break!).

But to anyone who is saying that he was "pissing" on a Christian symbol...he was PISSING INTO THE TOILET, but the "splash" from his piss flew up and one of the drops landed on the image of Jesus.

I don't really care one way or the other, since I'm not religious either, but he wasn't PISSING ON the symbol....it was just a ricochet...

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by JoBlo

I saw the episode and thought it was "okay funny", but not really that hilarious! (I don't like when they exaggerate something to the point of unbelievability -- would ANYONE really believe that a picture of Jesus hanging right above the urinal would be "crying"....gimme a break!).

But to anyone who is saying that he was "pissing" on a Christian symbol...he was PISSING INTO THE TOILET, but the "splash" from his piss flew up and one of the drops landed on the image of Jesus.

I don't really care one way or the other, since I'm not religious either, but he wasn't PISSING ON the symbol....it was just a ricochet...

This is a very good point the thread has been deflected from. This was one of my original reasons for questioning why the pissing issue is being played up so much more than making fun of false-beliefs (that God gives signs to believers)

[FireCaptain4]

I wonder what input Leo Getz has to offer in this thread?



"Well, stop turning everything around. You're so damned touchy... I didn't call you names, ya fuckface! Don't start now! "

[Natty]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

The fact that you'd use the word "oppression" to refer to religious groups that actively prevent minorities (homosexuals) from obtaining equal civil rights is just downright offensive. Fuck all of those people. Who gives a shit if they're insulted.

If you read the earlier posts you'll see that I've already dealt with my use of the word oppression, it was actually the other side of the arguement that initially used the term, I mean insulted/disrespected.

Again, this is a States thing so I won't get too involved/passionate about it, Christians over here (despite still being insulted) aren't evil and gays have their rights.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

Anyway, there's a billion examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. They include the movie Saved!, the television show The Book of Daniel... hell, one of the biggest books in years, The Da Vinci Code, has ideas that are much more openly blasphemous than Larry David accidentally pissing on an image because he plays a douchy character. Stop looking for Jew conspiracies everywhere, you're coming across as seriously deranged and bigoted.

Of course there are many examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. I criticize (not mock or take the piss out of) some aspects of the faith.

Where have I said anything about a "Jew [conspiracy]"?

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

The link works fine for me. Maybe your area has sites like this blocked or something. I'd be interested to know if it worked for other people.

Here is the link again.

http://www.lukeford.net/profiles/pro...carl_craig.htm

I get a 404 Not Found. If you're getting it to work it's probably an area issue i'm having.

you still haven't taken it upon yourself to show how the bit in question was actually so deeply sacrilege. As I've now stated three times, making an image of Jesus is something that appears to be forbidden in the 10 Commandments. I might be wrong, and maybe that commandment was Amended, and I've asked to be taught if that's the case.

Sacrilegous? It was an irreverent act toward a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity.
Graven images? Jesus was, as a man, not of Heaven, nor was he in the earth or water beneath, so therefore images of Jesus are acceptable.

No, you missed it. That was an old Jewish joke. Nah, I'm just fucking around. I didn't think you'd take umbrage with that, because you generally seem to have a sense of humor and I've never taken you to be the sort who thinks I would just fling mud at you in bad spirits. If you would rather I didn't joke as often, that's cool.

I didn't get it. Never heard it before. An definitely don't stop joking round, most of the time I think you're a funny guy. Just occasionally, like here, some of your jokes go over my head, for whatever reason.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

I get a 404 Not Found. If you're getting it to work it's probably an area issue i'm having.

Jews probably knocked out your local hubs with matza ball cocktails.

Sacrilegous? It was an irreverent act toward a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity.
Graven images? Jesus was, as a man, not of Heaven, nor was he in the earth or water beneath, so therefore images of Jesus are acceptable.

He's part of the Holy Trinity though, right?. Isn't it Jews and non-Christians who don't believe he is one of the same with God? I don't fully understand. What I don't know about The Bible you could almost fill a book with.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Of course there are many examples of non-Jews criticizing Christianity. I criticize (not mock or take the piss out of) some aspects of the faith.

Where have I said anything about a "Jew [conspiracy]"?

That is how your posts are coming across, especially since you obviously are not even remotely concerned with practicing religious Jews, but just anyone that's ethnically Jewish.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Sacrilegous? It was an irreverent act toward a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity.

There's nothing wrong with the scene. This is something you are continously choosing to ignore.

In the scene, the act of Larry David peeing in a toilet and a drop accidentally falling on "a picture dedicated to the leader of Christianity" is clearly portrayed as something bad. The character that does the peeing gets alarmed once he does it, realizes it's bad, and scurries out of the house he's in as fast as he can.

Are you saying it's sacrilegious to portray a character doing any act that might be considered 'sacrilegious' in any context?

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

That is how your posts are coming across,

So that would a "no" then, you can't inform me of when I've mentioned a "Jew [conspiracy]".

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

Are you saying it's sacrilegious to portray a character doing any act that might be considered 'sacrilegious' in any context?

It was sacrilegious in its disrespect toward a picture of religious significance. They showed it as a bad thing and accidental, only so far as necessary ingredients for their farce.

On a separate note, I saw that Family Guy episode. Hilarious, it was, "i'm just not a hat person". But was it greatly disrespectful to Judaism? not in the least. Sure there were a few quips made, but really its the Irishman who gets the mocking here, for stupidly parting with his savings when confronted with a dodgy salesman. Weinstein was one of the nicest people in the history of animated people. Judaism was shown to be a very welcoming religion, but also one which requires time and dedication to fully enter into. And Optimus Prime is Jewish. Crazy nuns on the other hand...

[Mr. Peanut]

This debate seems mostly healthy. Ive been following it since it's conception... but I see no end in sight. No offense to any parties but the thread organizer just comes across as if he wants to argue for the sake of it, just to win - and when this is "achieved" everyone can tell him he's right, because thats seemingly all he cares about. Terrific points have been brought up by nearly every participant in the thread, the he basically gives them a backseat treatment in lieu of further aguing.

Good debate, but its becoming less fruitful and more like beating a dead horse.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by Mr. Peanut

This debate seems mostly healthy. Ive been following it since it's conception... but I see no end in sight. No offense to any parties but the thread organizer just comes across as if he wants to argue for the sake of it, just to win - and when this is "achieved" everyone can tell him he's right, because thats seemingly all he cares about. Terrific points have been brought up by nearly every participant in the thread, the he basically gives them a backseat treatment in lieu of further aguing.

Good debate, but its becoming less fruitful and more like beating a dead horse.

Yet instead of making a valuable contribution, you've decided to make insulting remarks which carry no weight whatsoever.

A few individuals have made valuable contributions to this thread, offering the names of various films and tv shows. It will take time for me to get a hold of them. I haven't brushed their posts under the carpet.

As BCV can tell you, regarding the Mel Gibson's divorce thread, I do admit i'm wrong if indeed its proven.

As others can tell you, regarding the adoption thread on the politics forum, my views aren't set in stone, and do evolve when appropriate.

The same will apply to this thread, if and when appropriate.

For you to make a snap judgement based upon nothing but a hunch is not something to encourage on this site, because essentially it comes down to you being insulting.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

Jews probably knocked out your local hubs with matza ball cocktails.

Was that a Fridays reference?

I think Bubba has the best idea. Passive resistance/ridicule is probably the best weapon available to us. I would like to be able to spell things out and have a real argument about what (and who) is really going on, but it's not worth risking my status here. I've taken the bait and participated in this nonsense too much already.

[Mr. Peanut]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Yet instead of making a valuable contribution, you've decided to make insulting remarks which carry no weight whatsoever.

A few individuals have made valuable contributions to this thread, offering the names of various films and tv shows. It will take time for me to get a hold of them. I haven't brushed their posts under the carpet.

As BCV can tell you, regarding the Mel Gibson's divorce thread, I do admit i'm wrong if indeed its proven.

As others can tell you, regarding the adoption thread on the politics forum, my views aren't set in stone, and do evolve when appropriate.

The same will apply to this thread, if and when appropriate.

For you to make a snap judgement based upon nothing but a hunch is not something to encourage on this site, because essentially it comes down to you being insulting.

No, I was just pointing out that I see this thread ending in a banning or two, because its not going to end until everyone praises you and assures you that you are right. No matter what evidence they provide, your argument changes to further debunk their stance/information.

Your post shows exactly what I was getting at, its not about the spirit of the debate itself, its whether your opinion is right or wrong, and in your mind it is obviously very right and those of others are wrong.

This thread has been enjoyable and it was not my intention to "make insulting remarks which carry no weight whatsoever". I made not one insulting remark, and prefaced my comment by stating that no one should see it that way. I simply criticized the direction in which this thread has started going, it doesnt look pretty for the near future of it.

And to risk further trouble, thats all I will say on the matter. I do not want to be banned after all this time.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by Mr. Peanut

because its not going to end until everyone praises you and assures you that you are right.

You have that opinion, but its based on a hunch, nothing more.

As I've already explained, I have participated on previous threads where my opinion has changed when appropriate.

I made not one insulting remark, and prefaced my comment by stating that no one should see it that way..

By accusing me, "the thread organizer", of arguing for its own sake, you're being unequivocally insulting.

Lets keep it civil, and lets keep to the issue of this thread.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Buck Turgidson

Was that a Fridays reference?

It is now!

I think Bubba has the best idea. Passive resistance/ridicule is probably the best weapon available to us.

I think it's a pretty important point that has been ignored and distorted. I'll point out just how badly it's been distorted, although I already touched on it, I wanted to see how many more times Pent would misquote me in an effort to demand that I provide statistics before he'll address the point.

But first, the set-up for that punchline...

Originally Posted by Mr. Peanut

Terrific points have been brought up by nearly every participant in the thread, the he basically gives them a backseat treatment in lieu of further aguing.

Yes, not just a backseat treatment, but in the case of my point about "jews taking all the good jokes" --- a pretty obvious point (one that was at the basis of his original refutal of everyone else's mentioning of Jewish jokes in Hollywood) was distorted a quoted out of context of a complete sentence.

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

In that book will I find the data that you have used to formulate your assertion that, in your words: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people".

Then in this post:

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Bubba: "Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people."

You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data.

So where is he getting his quote from?

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

Something else, I'm pretty sure if we looked at numbers here, Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people.

So whereas I'm, for the sake of discussion, suggesting that I think Jews have the highest rate... Pent has attempted to make it appear that I'm making a definitive statement based on statistics, and in response asking me to provide those statistics to prove my point.

Yet, my point wasn't that, as a fact, Jews have the highest... but that it would appear that they do?

Where would I draw such ideas from?

Statements such as these...

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people.

So, Pent says that MOST Jewish jokes are from Jewish people, yet when I say, "I'm pretty sure if we looked at numbers here, Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people." as a lead in to saying that maybe it's just that Jews have taken all the best jokes, he refuses to address that point, and instead demands that I provide statistical data to validate what I've said.

Sorry, this isn't in the spirit of a good discussion, or even good debate.

Let's look at his responses to some of the links people have provided him.

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Quentin's links don't work for me, maybe its only for Americans.

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

The link doesn't work.

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

I get a 404 Not Found. If you're getting it to work it's probably an area issue i'm having.

Now while the last two statements are responding to the same link, I thought it was important to quote the last one for the people who are familiar with the difference between 404 and 403 errors. The idea here being that somehow whenever anyone his area tries to access the site, it's nowhere to be found, but when someone else tries to access it moments earlier/later, it can be found, and this is probably because he's not in America, because 404 is a generic code that basically means you can't open a webpage.

Of course I observe and process these things right of the bat, but choose to ignore them. I have a bad tendency to not address certain things I see that I notice are clearly wrong (like the misquoting of me, for example) in order to see if the spirit of a good discussion will prevail and things will continue moving forward in a constructive manner --- It's an awful habit, and I really am as dumb as I'm made out to be. I mean, for fuck's sake, I even said Jewish people make most the Jewish jokes without being able to provide statistics to back up that statement. As Bugs Bunny would most likely say of me, "What a maroon?"

But as I'll always respond back to that pesky whabbit, "What's up, Doc?"

I'm down, man. I'm sooo down with people. It's, as the Jewish hippies say, "Totally groovy, vhell at least 9/10ths groovy. Maybe not so much on Saturday, though, but whadda ya gonna do?"