Larry David and the double standards in America

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

So, Pent says that MOST Jewish jokes are from Jewish people, yet when I say, "I'm pretty sure if we looked at numbers here, Jews have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people." as a lead in to saying that maybe it's just that Jews have taken all the best jokes, he refuses to address that point, and instead demands that I provide statistical data to validate what I've said.

Jews having a self-depreciating humor, and I agree they do, is not the same as considering they have the "highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people". How do you know that Christians or...Muslims? or Hindus don't have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people? or if we look at groups outside of religion, how do you know the Irish don't have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor? I doubt there is any data for such matters. So in the absence of data, and even though you are only "pretty sure" that what you're saying is true, what has convinced you to be "pretty sure"?

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

How do you know that Christians or...Muslims? or Hindus don't have the highest rate of self-depreciating humor of a group of people?

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Now post the stats which are in context of the thread, i.e post the demographs of those in high up positions in the media (writers, producers, directors etc). Mostly Christians? I think not.

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

What gets me is the double standards. You say its an expression of beliefs, but what if someone got a yamaka and pissed in it, to show their contempt for Judaism, do you honestly think it would get approval from media producers.

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people. Very rarely will you hear a non-Jewish comedian make fun of Jewish customs, it happens, but very rarely. And certainly you wouldn't see a Christian or Muslim pissing on something of significance to the Jewish faith.

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

you can look sources that make Jewish humor notable by being "frequently self-critical and sometimes even self-deprecating." - quote taken from The Big Book of Jewish Humor.

Do a Google search of "Jewish humor frequently self mocking" and all the links on the first page are about Jewish humor. Do a search for "Christian humor frequently self mocking" and it isn't until the third hit that you get a link about religion - and that's about Jewish humor. Do a search for "Muslim humor frequently self mocking" and it isn't until the 6th link that you get something about religion - and that's about Lewis Black mocking Jews. Do a Google search for "self mocking religion" and the first hit you get on the subject, is this thread, but the next hit is about Jewish humor.

Show me the sources where other religions are noted as being CHARACTERIZED as self-mocking, and give it to me in the frequency as the sources about Jews being self-mocking.

Woody Allen
Sacha Baron Cohen
Jerry Seinfeld
Sarah Silverman
2 Live Jews
Lewis Black
David Cross
Jon Lovitz (aka Chanukah Harry)
Joan Rivers
Seth Rogan
Judd Apatow
Andy Samberg
Mel Brooks


That's a short list, and anytime you want to jump in and prove me wrong by starting a list of non-Jewish comedians that mock their own religion, feel free, but again, I really don't think that anyone else is denying that Jewish humor is notable for being self-depreciating or self-mocking.

If you have proof otherwise, feel free, but as it stands you aren't proving anything, much less, much, much less, disproving anything by asking my to provide statistics on something you know damn well no one has sat down and created statistics on.

Let me approach this another way --- Please educate and enlighten me on why you would think other cultures are as self mocking by their comedians as those of Jewish background. The only examples I can think of would be Jeff Foxworthy making fun of rednecks, and Eddie Izzard making fun of Catholics, but I'm hard pressed to think of examples that are as easy to come by or as totally obvious as those of Jewish background making fun of Jewish culture. I know there are plenty, but the point is that when people said there's Jewish jokes from the media, your IMMEDIATE response was that MOST of them are from Jewish comedians. So explain to me how you aren't validating this statement I'm presuming, when it's obvious by your own retort that it's very easy to identify Jews as being the source of MOST Jewish jokes, yet when it comes to other religions - you say most of those all come from Jews as well, hence your assertion of a double standard. You are saying there's a double standard because Jews don't get made fun of like other religions, but all the examples of jokes about Jews are non admissible because they come from Jews.

Oh what a tangled web you've weaved.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

That's a short list, and anytime you want to jump in and prove me wrong by starting a list of non-Jewish comedians that mock their own religion, feel free, but again, I really don't think that anyone else is denying that Jewish humor is notable for being self-depreciating or self-mocking.

What you've done is show that there are Jewish people with a self-depreciating humor. And I accept that.

The most "self-depreciated humor of a group of people" is what you claimed, and that remains to be seen.

---

Back to the topic at hand, this thread is about religions not being treated equally by the U.S media. I believe Christianity is treated with greater severity and scorn than other religions. And my view will remain so, until I see evidence to the contrary.

If people wish to prove me wrong, and believe they can, then they can freely provide me with examples of other religions being treated in a disrespectful manner by the U.S media. And some of you have provided me with examples, and I'll be looking into them.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

What you've done is show that there are Jewish people with a self-depreciating humor. And I accept that.

The most "self-depreciated humor of a group of people" is what you claimed, and that remains to be seen.

The occurance of self-criticism as a detriment may explain how it is that a number of the most apt jokes... have grown up on the soil of Jewish popular life. They are stories created by Jews and directed against Jewish characteristics... Incidentally, I do not know whether there are many other instances of a people making fun to such a degree of its own character.

- Sigmund Freud, Jokes and Their Relation to the Unconsciousness.

Sorry, Pent, I've yet to see you provide any evidence to say otherwise. You are failing to prove that there is a double standard, and this isn't an a matter of Jews taking all the good Jewish jokes.


I'm not sure trying to pretend like my point has nothing to do with the topic at hand is going to help you deflect this key, and unique, point that more and more people here are agreeing with. Although I'm sure if you continue to proposition responses, someone will wander in here and make an unrelated post you're able to argue with in the manner of which you've prepared yourself to do because it's been done a million times already (although I can't provide statistics to show that, so what do I know.)

Oddly enough, it's hard to find statistics proving that people like to drink water.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

I'm not sure trying to pretend like my point has nothing to do with the topic at hand is going to help you deflect this key, and unique, point

Oddly enough, it's hard to find statistics proving that people like to drink water.

Jews are self-depreciating, I already agreed with that.

You claim they are the most self-depreciating out of any group. And I don't see that being true, sorry, there's just no facts i've seen which support your case there.

Water is a necessity, so that's slightly different.

Back on topic, I plan to see Hollywood Shuffle soon, hopefully someone can mention the specific episodes of Curb which were greatly disrespectful to Judaism and Islam. And then when i've seen those I'll be able to comment. In the meantime, moe examples would be appreciated.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

It was sacrilegious in its disrespect toward a picture of religious significance. They showed it as a bad thing and accidental, only so far as necessary ingredients for their farce.

So in other words, it is not ok to portray anything involving religious beliefs in comedy, regardless of context. Yes?

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Jews are self-depreciating, I already agreed with that.

You claim they are the most self-depreciating out of any group. And I don't see that being true, sorry, there's just no facts i've seen which support your case there.

Then who do you think is the most self-depreciating group, or at least list some groups you think are more self-depreciating. You can't just keep saying "it ain't" without saying what it is. That's the difference between having a discussion with a person and banging your head into a brick wall.

If you keep making people feel like your only contribution is saying others don't have valid points, "just because", you are going to run out of people who are amicable enough to want to have these types of discussions and I think that would be very sad, because I, for one, enjoy dissent and opposing views, but not in a manner of just having it validated that people do have opposing views. If I wanted to have a discussion about that, I'd only need to speak to my like-minded friends, and well, actually you can't have a discussion about that. If you are going to keep doing this, I'd recommend you'd be better off using the blog function available on your Movie Fan Central profile.

Water is a necessity, so that's slightly different.

Paying rent is a necessity too. That doesn't mean people like doing it. Again though, that's an example of you ignoring points for the sake of pretending like I'm not talking to a person and programing MS-DOS or BASIC. I'm half waiting for you to start responding, "SYNTAX ERROR AT LINE 12" You are not a dense person and I find it hard to accept that you don't get that my point was that I can't provide statistics because there are none.

And lest not forget that you yourself have stated that a) Jews make the most jokes about Jews, b) Jews also make the most jokes about every other religion. --- That in itself, no matter whether this is the 3rd time or 4th time you've avoided this point, this is demonstration enough that you have stated what I stated before I even stated it, and only after I stated it did you position yourself to state otherwise. At most optimistic, that's a state of denial, and I am stating facts here as to how you yourself have asserted that Jews are responsible for both most the jokes against religions and most of the jokes for themselves. So if they have the most, then how can you claim another group has more.

Back on topic, I plan to see Hollywood Shuffle soon, hopefully someone can mention the specific episodes of Curb which were greatly disrespectful to Judaism and Islam. And then when i've seen those I'll be able to comment.

Well, here again, you are either confused or distorting what I've said. I used Hollywood Shuffle as an example when you asked me to give some of Jews being portrayed as stereotypes, and I believe you are gearing up to tell us that you finally saw Shuffle and there was nothing as bad as accidentally getting urine on a cheesy oil painting of Jesus that was placed next to a toilet in a position where it would be susceptible to splash-back.

In the meantime, moe examples would be appreciated.

Hey, have you ever heard of this character named Borat? He was created by a man of Jewish heritage named Sacha Baron Cohen. I've mentioned his name twice before already.

Here is the character performing a song entitled, "Throw The Jews Down The Well"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3RHkY6Hms

Sorry, I think calling for the Holocaust of Jewish people trumps your example of someone accidentally getting a trinkle of urine on a painting of Jesus (which in itself hasn't been shown to not be sacrilege)

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

So in other words, it is not ok to portray anything involving religious beliefs in comedy, regardless of context. Yes?

I don't think he's said that, but I'm not ruling out that as the thread progresses, the likelihood of that being the point reaching "1".

[The Heart Collector]

The implication in his statement is that it does not matter whether the act is presented as 'bad' within the context of the work, since according to him the reason why its presented as that is to make a 'farce'.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

I believe Christianity is treated with greater severity and scorn than other religions. And my view will remain so, until I see evidence to the contrary.

The first Muslim Congressman of the United States of America, Keith Ellison, was asked, by Glenn Beck, at the time working on CNN, part of the U.S. Media, to "prove that he is not working for America's enemies". Because he is a Muslim (he is not Arab).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbg604XqPY

That's pretty damning evidence. Someone who practices Islam, regardless of their position in American society and their origins, is painted with the same brush as Osama Bin Laden. That's beyond offensive.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

The implication in his statement is that it does not matter whether the act is presented as 'bad' within the context of the work, since according to him the reason why its presented as that is to make a 'farce'.

Oh, I agree with this. That's contained within my response. It just hasn't come out. Based on what's actually been said, I think there's enough to work without getting into the further levels of what he might be thinking. I don't care, but will say that you are a much braver man than I am.

[Hey Man]

Pentangeli,

Unless I have missed it - why have you not acknowledged the vast difference between taking a picture of Jesus Christ, putting it on the floor and just unloading your piss on it as opposed to a not indended piss drop backsplash. It could have been a picture of dogs playing poker, but the result would have still been the same. Nothing to be offended about.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

So in other words, it is not ok to portray anything involving religious beliefs in comedy, regardless of context. Yes?

No, that's not what I said. You can see I haven't said that, its clear in the post of mine you quoted.

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

Then who do you think is the most self-depreciating group

I'm sorry Bubba, but its simply not what this thread is about. If you wish to believe Jewish people are the most self-depreciating people in the World, go with it. That's cool.

If you keep making people feel like your only contribution is saying others don't have valid points, "just because", you are going to run out of people who are amicable enough to want to have these types of discussions and I think that would be very sad, because I, for one, enjoy dissent and opposing views, but not in a manner of just having it validated that people do have opposing views. If I wanted to have a discussion about that, I'd only need to speak to my like-minded friends, and well, actually you can't have a discussion about that. If you are going to keep doing this, I'd recommend you'd be better off using the blog function available on your Movie Fan Central profile.

Thanks for the recommendation, but the thread is relevant here. People have made valuable contributions, as i've already mentioned. BCV mentioned Life of Brian. Smiert mentioned an episode of Family Guy. You mentioned Hollywood Shuffle. Quentin mentioned Curb as an entire series, and i'm hoping he can point me in the direction of a few specific episodes. And I ask for more examples.

Here is the character performing a song entitled, "Throw The Jews Down The Well"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lk3RHkY6Hms

The purpose of Borat is to expose and entice the bigotry of those around him. That's the humor of it. Same applies to Ali G and Bruno.

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

The first Muslim Congressman of the United States of America, Keith Ellison, was asked, by Glenn Beck, at the time working on CNN, part of the U.S. Media, to "prove that he is not working for America's enemies". Because he is a Muslim (he is not Arab).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tgbg604XqPY

That's pretty damning evidence. Someone who practices Islam, regardless of their position in American society and their origins, is painted with the same brush as Osama Bin Laden. That's beyond offensive.

That's terrible. What action was taken against Beck? Wikipedia has no mention of action against his statement. If no action was taken against Beck, I would say that's greater in severity than what Larry David did. I don't hear about anything like that where I live, and I don't get CNN. I can't recall anyone from Britain's mainstream media saying anything of that nature, neither can I imagine it. And thanks for that example. That's the kind of thing I was after.

[The Heart Collector]

Presumably you don't support a good character accidentally splashing piss on Jesus.

You don't support a bad character accidentally splashing piss on Jesus, according to this thread, because it is only portrayed as bad for 'farce'.

So in what context would you find a desecration of a picture of Jesus acceptable, other than having an evil villain do it?

Honestly when I saw the episode, I didn't find the scene even remotely offensive. Curb (and Seinfeld, for that matter) have had scenes that people did get offended with, not because of what happened, but because of the characters' reactions. Like Susan dying.

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

Quentin mentioned Curb as an entire series, and i'm hoping he can point me in the direction of a few specific episodes.

Actually, in my first post I gave three specific episodes as examples and summarized what they're about. Each revolve significantly around making light of customs of Judaism or Islam, in the way that this episode that so offends you makes light of people thinking they're seeing miracles in inanimate objects (NOT desecrating Jesus, since it's accidental).

You said those links to the HBO episode guides weren't working for you. Odd, but those episodes again are The Ski Lift (ep # 48), The Survivor (ep #39), and The Blind Date (ep #33).

Though I'm gonna have to agree you don't seem at all open to discovering new information that may shape and change your opinion, you seem more concerned with telling people they're wrong or their examples don't fit in your increasingly narrow field of discussion. Meanwhile moving goal posts to claim a double standard that you've yet to demonstrate or provide evidence for despite many of the other participants in this discussion providing ample evidence to the contrary.

In truth, it's become apparent that this whole thing ostensibly about Larry David and Curb and how offensive it is for an unlikable character portrayed as a misanthropic dope to accidentally splash urine on a graven image of Jesus ("You shall not make for yourself a graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath," Exodus 20:3) and be ridiculed for it, is really more about your regularly-appearing issues with all things Jewish. So despite the fact that it's pretty easy to show lots of examples of Jews and Muslims being made the subject of fun or having their beliefs handled in an irreverent manner, I now kinda doubt that will get us anywhere.

[Reigh Kaufman]

It is a popular misconception that the Christians were thrown to the lions.

But the ones on JoBlo walk up to them covered in BBQ sauce and stick their heads into their mouths.

Ba-dum-tsh!

Try the veal and tip your waitress.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

So in what context would you find a desecration of a picture of Jesus acceptable, other than having an evil villain do it?

"Other than an evil villain [doing] it"

If someone accidentally did it, and regretted it, then it wouldn't be disrespectful.

If Larry David found what he did regrettable, it wouldn't have featured in his comedy series. He put the "accident" in a context which was disrespectful.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

Actually, in my first post I gave three specific episodes as examples and summarized what they're about. Each revolve significantly around making light of customs of Judaism or Islam, in the way that this episode that so offends you makes light of people thinking they're seeing miracles in inanimate objects (NOT desecrating Jesus, since it's accidental).

You said those links to the HBO episode guides weren't working for you. Odd, but those episodes again are The Ski Lift (ep # 48), The Survivor (ep #39), and The Blind Date (ep #33).

You did indeed, and thanks for the help on this. Along with the other suggestions from various posters, I'll see them when I can.

is really more about your regularly-appearing issues with all things Jewish. So despite the fact that it's pretty easy to show lots of examples of Jews and Muslims being made the subject of fun or having their beliefs handled in an irreverent manner, I now kinda doubt that will get us anywhere.

You're making assumptions without substance. And quite frankly its insulting.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

I'm sorry Bubba, but its simply not what this thread is about. If you wish to believe Jewish people are the most self-depreciating people in the World, go with it. That's cool.

You really need to stop telling me what the thread is about, because my point is directly tied in with your assertion of a double standard, and you know this.

Secondly, it's not cool that you are trying straw man tactics by making it sound like my point is that Jewish people are the most self-depreciating in the world, when you know damn well that the statement was included in a point about there being tons of Jewish jokes already in Hollywood, and Jewish people make Jewish jokes and jokes about other religions - something, again, directly tied in with your reasoning for saying there's a double standard.

Your complaint is that there is a double standard in Hollywood.

Several schmoes have said that there is no double standard because there are a lot of jokes about Jews as well as other religions.

You said that doesn't count because MOST of the jokes about Jews are by Jews.

I said, in response to YOUR statement, that I believe it's just a matter of Jewish writers having a sort of monopoly on jokes, leaving little room for other writers to mock them, as they have already done the mocking.

You ask me to prove that MOST of the jokes about Jews are by JEws.

I prove this.

You say it has nothing to do with the topic, which is a way you're trying and avoid the point being made: That there is no double standard because Jews make fun of themselves as much as other religions. A point that has been made by pretty much every single schmoe posting in this thread, but you seem to not want to address because it shows how wrong your double standard theory is.

It's funny that you've been arguing against the point for 3 pages now, but once you are put into a position where it would make sense to accept it, you start acting like the point is something else, despite there being a clear thread as to why the topic was brought up (you asking me to provide statistics) and even weaker, pretending like I'm not addressing an original point that was made.

Thanks for the recommendation, but the thread is relevant here. People have made valuable contributions, as i've already mentioned. BCV mentioned Life of Brian. Smiert mentioned an episode of Family Guy. You mentioned Hollywood Shuffle. Quentin mentioned Curb as an entire series, and i'm hoping he can point me in the direction of a few specific episodes. And I ask for more examples.

Instead of Hollywood Shuffle, I would recommend Fear of a Black Hat, because it's much more cutting that Shuffle - that one was just the first one that came to mind. There's PLENTY more I could think of, but there's no need to ---

And tons more could be listed but those are from Jewish writers so you are going to say Jewish writers making Jewish jokes has nothing to do with a double standard of Jewish writers making fun of religion and that's totally nonsense, because it's EXACTLY what it's about.

The purpose of Borat is to expose and entice the bigotry of those around him. That's the humor of it. Same applies to Ali G and Bruno.

And the purpose of Curb Your Enthusiasm is to make Larry David look like a borderline sociopath who always does things wrong and makes himself out to be an asshole. Why do you think ones motivation is more relevant than the other when neither is intended to be a disrespectful to religion but instead make people look like assholes? I mean, besides your refusal to accept other points being made, and harping on the technicalities of how people make their points instead of the points being made (for example, you asking me to provide statistics that MOST Jewish jokes are from Jewish writers and MOST jokes about other religions are also from Jewish writers, when this is exactly a point you originally made, not me; but I just used this point to state in conclusion that Jews probably make more jokes about Jews than other religions make jokes of themselves, when this is logically inherent and fundamental to YOUR refusal to accept points that were made on PAGE ONE.

Sorry, what you are doing to me with this thread here is no different than what others are doing to you in terms of talking about your Jewish conspiracy nonsense and putting words in your mouth, and at this point I'm a little regretting that I stood up for you when people were doing this.

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

You're making assumptions without substance. And quite frankly its insulting.

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?", this thread, "Mel Gibson gets unfair treatment because of who runs the entertainment industry," etc) as well as made comments I found bizarrely critical of Jewish people where otherwise the threads weren't about that. If you're a Christian, I'd assume you'd find Hinduism, Taosim, and all other non-Christian (and far more prevalent) religions "asinine drivel," but you seem focused quite specifically on hammering Judaism which strikes me as odd if your feelings are simply that Christianity is right and the rest aren't. What is it specifically about Judaism that bothers you?

These are observations I have never seen made by anyone for any purpose other than to to be critical of Jewish people and not-so-subtly hint at some form of inappropriate Zionist conspiracy (When in reality, the Hollywood studio system like all corporate culture is nepotistic and was founded largely by European Jewish immigrants). Here in your first post you complain that you can't target Judaism for criticism because Jews run the media. If you'd like to take the opportunity to explain what the point was of these comments that has nothing to do with you having issues with Jewish people, feel free, I'm curious to hear it. Genuinely. But it sounds to me a lot like people who make "observations" like "Ever notice there are lots of black people in jail?" or "Why can black people get away with mocking white people but I can't mock black people?" or in its most egregious form "Why can't I say 'nigger' by they can?" I don't believe people make such comments innocently or without cause and the rather obvious subtext of such remarks is that the author has a problem with Jews or in the latter case blacks. In polite society and civil discussion, it's rare for someone to openly make racist remarks and no one's saying you've called for Ze Extermination of Der Juden or anything that awful, but it's even rarer for someone to regularly bring up a specific race in a disparaging way without an ulterior motive or agenda.

Moreover, I think if this thread was started in earnest and you just felt there was a double standard regarding Christianity's presentation in mass media, you'd be much more receptive to information demonstrating that Judaism and Islam have had more than their fair share of being similarly mocked or derided as well as points made about the relative abundance of Christianity compared to other religions in America being a source for any disparity in the amount of irreverent material on the subject. Instead, it seems you're insisting on making some point about minority censorship and Jewish privilege you've yet to really provide evidence for. Again, from my perspective, behaving like someone more interested in their agenda and using this topic as an opportunity to discuss the unfair "Jewish media's" assault on your values than an honest, open, fair discussion about whether Larry David was disrespecting Christians and people wouldn't stand for that if it weren't a Christian figure.

On this specific topic, I still don't understand why you haven't meaningfully addressed the fact that the scene you take umbrage with was an innocuous accident committed by a character who is presented as a wholly unlikable asshole who regularly accidentally offends people as the basis of a majority of the show's plotlines. This is in no way comparable to someone taking a portrait of Jesus out and pissing on it to make some statement about their contempt for Christianity, which is fair to be offended by, but more akin to how Ben Stiller accidentally burns a gazebo in Meet The Parents and everyone gets mad at him for it, which taking offense to seems off-base. How is it so offensive when presented in this context? If you were upset that the show made light of people witnessing miracles in inanimate objects, you'd have fair cause, but this seems like entirely unnecessary reaching to come to a conclusion not supported by the content and especially the context of the episode.

[Smiert Spionam]

Pent just doesn't wanna admit that he was wrong and that this thread is fucking retarded. Plain and simple....

There's nothing wrong with being wrong, Pent, especially about a subject that regards another country that you don't even fuckin' live in. We won't think any less of you if you just concede defeat over this already pointless topic.

[The Heart Collector]

Originally Posted by Pentangeli

If someone accidentally did it, and regretted it, then it wouldn't be disrespectful.

If Larry David found what he did regrettable, it wouldn't have featured in his comedy series. He put the "accident" in a context which was disrespectful.

He does find it regrettable, which is why he doesn't say anything about it, because he wants to avoid the problem. Afterwards, when he realizes what the other person thinks (that it is a miracle), he stays quiet (as well as Jerry Seinfeld, who guesses what happened) because they both want the person in question to quit her job with them (which she does, since she wants to tour the 'miracle jesus picture').

In other words, Larry is a selfish dude who uses an accident as an opportunity to get something he wants.

This follows a long pattern of events in the show, including using his mother's death as a way to avoid assisting to other people's parties and whatnot, or dating a woman in a wheelchair because everyone treats them better at dates, etc.

[Pentangeli]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?",

Provide a quote, because i've never said that. Your lying is indicitive of trollish behaviour and shouldn't be acceptable on this site.

this thread, "Mel Gibson gets unfair treatment because of who runs the entertainment industry," etc)

I don't believe the entire entertainment industry is run by Jews.

as well as made comments I found bizarrely critical of Jewish people where otherwise the threads weren't about that. If you're a Christian, I'd assume you'd find Hinduism, Taosim, and all other non-Christian (and far more prevalent) religions "asinine drivel," but you seem focused quite specifically on hammering Judaism which strikes me as odd if your feelings are simply that Christianity is right and the rest aren't. What is it specifically about Judaism that bothers you?

I'm not a Christian. I'm an agnostic-theist. Jesus is like Gandhi to me.

Here in your first post you complain that you can't target Judaism for criticism because Jews run the media.

Once again you've lied. And once again, I feel the need to defend myself against this unfair/unjust treatment, I have not said "Jews run the media".

I was hoping for a civil discussion. Instead I get insulted, I get lies spread about me. Its pathetic and I wont be taken part in this any longer.

Moreover, I think if this thread was started in earnest and you just felt there was a double standard regarding Christianity's presentation in mass media, you'd be much more receptive to information demonstrating that Judaism and Islam have had more than their fair share of being similarly mocked or derided as well as points made about the relative abundance of Christianity compared to other religions in America being a source for any disparity in the amount of irreverent material on the subject.

I have accepted the points made by other posters, if and when appropriate. You've given me good examples. Smiert, Bubba, BCV, have all given me examples. It will take time for me to see all the suggestions. If indeed these examples show that non-Christian religions can be mocked in equal severity, then i'll stand corrected.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?"

Q, are we acknowledging, even quasi-officially, that this guy is who many of us think he is? I've been loath to spell it out directly because I thought it might be seen as accusing him of dishonesty, but since he's directly accused you of having lied (using that word) and of lying (using that word as well), I think that wall has been breeched.

If we want to put all the cards on the table and not have someone who calls him on it be punished (someone like me, for example), I'll be happy to provide that quote he's been demanding be provided.

[Natty]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

I believe you've made several "observations" throughout your history that amount to one form or another of "Jews run Hollywood/media" ("Ever notice Hollywood studios are run by people with surnames ending in Mann, Berg, Stein, etc?"

That was actually someone else who has since been banned. I know you might be suggesting they are the same person but Pentangili seems more intelligent, and hasn't yet spoken out against "double standards" involving black people.

[Smiert Spionam]

Provide a quote, because i've never said that. Your lying is indicitive of trollish behaviour and shouldn't be acceptable on this site.

You do realize you're talking to a fuckin' MOD, right?

This guy is ridiculous.... I've never known anyone to take such a definitive stance on a subject that they clearly no nothing about and be so stubborn when no one agrees with them and they're made to look like a fool. It's almost awe-inspiring....

[BubbaStrangelove]

So to summarize, the thread starter thinks there is a double standard in the media because there are so many jokes that ridicule Christianity.

When people provide examples and accounts of Jewish customs being ridiculed, the thread starter says that doesn't count because the writers are Jewish.

When someone says that it might just be a case of Jewish people taking up all the good jokes, the thread starter refuses to address that, and continues to insist there is a imbalanced attack of Christianity. the thread starter even asks to be provided statistics to validate the statement.

Maybe the thread starter is right, and we do need statistical data, because anything else might just be a load of hogwash.

So let's back up to page one so we can get everything straight and make sure the thread hasn't progressed on false statements that cannot be validated through statistics.

From page one...

Originally Posted by the thread starter

Yes, people make Jewish jokes, although mostly its from Jewish people. Very rarely will you hear a non-Jewish comedian make fun of Jewish customs, it happens, but very rarely.

"You give statements in this manner, as if you're going by a recorded statistic. I would love to see the data."



I believe it has been successfully demonstrated in this thread that there is not double standard, as evident by the mass amounts of Jewish jokes, which the thread starter acknowledges. Also, there has been a failure to show where other religions mock their own to the extent that Jewish comedians mock there own, so in turn, it reckons that Jewish comedians are responsible for most mocking of all religions.

There is no double standard, I believe the thread starter is exhibiting narrow vision based within their own reality tunnel.

[Smiert Spionam]

Not to metion the fact that the thread isn't only about double standards, but double standards IN AMERICA, a country in which, again, the thread starter doesn't even live in, while the overwhelming majority of his critics actually do.

I think that's important to note as well....

[BubbaStrangelove]

Smiert - wasn't there a South Park episode depicting Muhammad as a character?

[Smiert Spionam]

Yes, but he was only depicted on a fictional episode of Family Guy that was airing on TV in South Park. It was for half a second and he had no dialogue, but still though....

[BubbaStrangelove]

Were the fictional writers for that fictional episode of Family Guy Islamic?

[Smiert Spionam]

I dunno, do manatees often have religious beliefs?

[Shinigami]

Does anybody find the quirks of censorship interesting? Can anybody point to strange cases of broad favoritism that don't have to do with obvious reasons like audience pandering, advertiser pandering..?

I've been thinking about this on and off for a few days but can't put together a good answer beyond the boring No.

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Buck Turgidson

Q, are we acknowledging, even quasi-officially, that this guy is who many of us think he is? I've been loath to spell it out directly because I thought it might be seen as accusing him of dishonesty, but since he's directly accused you of having lied (using that word) and of lying (using that word as well), I think that wall has been breeched.

If we want to put all the cards on the table and not have someone who calls him on it be punished (someone like me, for example), I'll be happy to provide that quote he's been demanding be provided.

Originally Posted by Natty

That was actually someone else who has since been banned. I know you might be suggesting they are the same person but Pentangili seems more intelligent, and hasn't yet spoken out against "double standards" involving black people.

I'm under the same impression Buck, but wasn't trying to use that against him or make a point of it and it's advised not to. I wasn't even trying to bring it up, I was just mistaken about the timing of different comments. I guess the lines blurred for me, I thought the most bizarre and direct stuff was the other fella's name but the "Ever notice how...?" line was Pentangeli. I was trying to provide quotes and comments Pentangeli made. I just did a search of his post history and see that though there's this thread and Gibson comments and others, that first quote isn't attributed to Pentangeli. I wasn't lying but I was mistaken on that one quote Pentangeli, mea culpa. Some of you understand how I could make that mistake, I'll leave it at that.

What's not lying or trolling or being mistaken is reading into the subtext of a series of comments. I may have never said "I love movies" anywhere on this board, but read enough of my posts and you'll soon figure it out. In my estimation and it appears I'm not alone, there's an odd and negative focus on Jewish people and religion in your posting. You take issue with people paraphrasing or interpreting your statements and consider it some form of attack, I think that's semantics but whatever, I'm done doing it here. Without actually going wildly off-topic, the thread has still ventured into personal territory (partly my fault) and obviously gotten heated and I don't think gotten us anywhere in over a page and as a whole Bubba summarizes well. Like I said, I doubt any good will come of it, minds changed or good points recognized, so I'm just gonna move on.

As a final note, Larry David is for my money probably the single funniest man to work in T.V.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

I'm under the same impression Buck, but wasn't trying to use that against him or make a point of it and it's advised not to.

The only reason I asked is that this incessant repetition of "I never said that" by him is really galling.

Extending him the benefit of the doubt is indicative of Natty's essential good nature, but that's not the way I do things.

Like I said, I doubt any good will come of it, minds changed or good points recognized, so I'm just gonna move on.

That's probably the best practical decision but the problem is that we'll be back here fighting this same battle, sooner or later.

Most likely the former.

[Katel2]

Modern Judaism often focuses on community and moral values rather than religious beliefs. In modern judaism you can debate religious tenets with your rabi. If you are a secular jew you may not even believe in God. If you are asking if there is a fundamentalist sect of Judaism that would be offended by sacrilege the way that their is a fundamentalist sect of christianity that is offended by sacrilege---yes. I don't think that Larry David is a fundamentalist.
Also, it is just a painting of Jesus. (looking suspiciously white I might add)
Wasn't there death threats over cartoonists drawing images of Allah- Do Christians really want to take that over sensitivity as a model.

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Smiert Spionam

I dunno, do manatees often have religious beliefs?

Ah man, I'm not familiar enough with the shows and I haven't seen the Cartoon Wars episodes, so I can't follow.

Originally Posted by Shinigami

Does anybody find the quirks of censorship interesting? Can anybody point to strange cases of broad favoritism that don't have to do with obvious reasons like audience pandering, advertiser pandering..?

I've been thinking about this on and off for a few days but can't put together a good answer beyond the boring No.

I can't either. PrisWizard once noted something about where Toyota did a series of ads where Rav4s had gold grills, meant to be like gold teeth, and they pulled the ads after Jesse Jackson complained. That seems like it might be a good example, but I'm not totally sure. Could you define what you're looking for a bit more because I don't know if I'm totally clear.

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

I'm under the same impression Buck, but wasn't trying to use that against him or make a point of it and it's advised not to. I wasn't even trying to bring it up, I was just mistaken about the timing of different comments. I guess the lines blurred for me, I thought the most bizarre and direct stuff was the other fella's name but the "Ever notice how...?" line was Pentangeli. I was trying to provide quotes and comments Pentangeli made. I just did a search of his post history and see that though there's this thread and Gibson comments and others, that first quote isn't attributed to Pentangeli. I wasn't lying but I was mistaken on that one quote Pentangeli, mea culpa. Some of you understand how I could make that mistake, I'll leave it at that.

What's not lying or trolling or being mistaken is reading into the subtext of a series of comments. I may have never said "I love movies" anywhere on this board, but read enough of my posts and you'll soon figure it out. In my estimation and it appears I'm not alone, there's an odd and negative focus on Jewish people and religion in your posting. You take issue with people paraphrasing or interpreting your statements and consider it some form of attack, I think that's semantics but whatever, I'm done doing it here. Without actually going wildly off-topic, the thread has still ventured into personal territory (partly my fault) and obviously gotten heated and I don't think gotten us anywhere in over a page and as a whole Bubba summarizes well. Like I said, I doubt any good will come of it, minds changed or good points recognized, so I'm just gonna move on.

As a final note, Larry David is for my money probably the single funniest man to work in T.V.

QUENTIN - In all your time here, I've found you to be nothing of a troll. There are other schmoes here who I adore and think are just the cat's meow, but have felt they are trollish from time-to-time - even myself, I sometimes engage in very mild behavior that could be seen as trollish - even though it's never in the strict sense, because mine is usually similar to yours, unintended - in my case, just maybe too out there to be seem earnest, or sometimes just obvious I'm goofing around - I don't think anyone has ever thought I was ill-willed, which, to me, is the root of what real trollish behavior is. The term has been wayyyy broadened since it was first coined to pretty much include anything that's not strict adherence to the most boring style of internet discussion.

If you go by most prevailing definitions, making a joke in a thread, whether it's in context or not, is called trolling, and I think that's bullshit, because IN REAL LIFE, if someone made an off-handed joke during a conversation, or if someone made a mistake, people wouldn't dork out and start accusing them of the same type of role playing mentality nonsense people accuse people of on the Internet. They would just call them on the mistake without making any judgments or playing like they are holier than thou because you're engaging in some sort of arbitrary behavior that's described in contrast to a mythological creature. If that were the case, we'd be a pretty boring race of beings who never introduced new ideas, or attempted to solve problems, rationalize what was in front of us, much less have a sense of humor, and even worse off, we'd always be looking be facing enemies, and never peers, because everyone makes mistakes and everyone has quarks.

By some definitions, this very response is considered trolling - despite, using real world rules, it CLEARLy being in the flow of natural and civil conversation. Thank JoBlo that this site is built and run by people who have real and productive lives, and there's none of that talk back mentality. In my time here, I have only gone to any lengths to insist one schmoe was a troll - many of you remember this and know who I'm talking about. I think it's suiting that this thread is where I have most brought this up since it happened 4 or 5 years ago.

With QUENTIN, I've seen nothing but sincere attempts to have discussions. You always respond to people in the exact context of their posts, and have never stooped to misquoting or intentionally making people look like they are doing things that seem far-fetched from what they actually did. I mean, in the example in this thread, even at your worst you have stated things pretty much the entire thread participants have touched on or hinted at. So you made a mistake. Who's the bigger one looking to bring disharmony: the person who makes a mistake, the person who notices the mistake and points it out, or the person who accuses someone, someone who has a outstanding history on the boards, of engaging in ill-mannered and mean-spirited behavior? My bet is on the latter. The latter is the guy in a bar who starts a fight because someone looked at him wrong, when everyone else is just trying to enjoy himself. It's only doubled if that guy who thinks he was looked at wrong showed up at the bar ready to fight, though only he can ever validate if that was his MO.

Originally Posted by Buck Turgidson

The only reason I asked is that this incessant repetition of "I never said that" by him is really galling.

Extending him the benefit of the doubt is indicative of Natty's essential good nature, but that's not the way I do things.That's probably the best practical decision but the problem is that we'll be back here fighting this same battle, sooner or later.

Most likely the former.

I think we all speak to one another in a mature and good-spirited manner. With so many of the schmoes here, I've found nothing but an intent to have discussions. I've disagreed with every single person in this thread about one thing or another, some I have gone throat to throat with in passionate disagreement, but it's only the people who I feel are acting in good-spirits that I will continue to respond and have discussions with. That schmoe from many years back, who I keep referring to has been the only person who's ever gone on my ignore list, but alas it was hard to maintain because so many others continued giving them the benefit of the doubt, and leaving little to do but acknowledge their presence. This was all in the spirit of being a part of a discussion group. When everyone eventually came to the same conclusion as me, that particular schmoe acted as if they were being victimized, offended, and as if they could not see where everyone was coming from, and decided to stop posting under that user name. This was their choice not mine.

People are people, so let people be people and realize the people who are just being people.

Sorry, I'm still recovering from a minor surgery.

Originally Posted by Katel2

Also, it is just a painting of Jesus. (looking suspiciously white I might add)
Wasn't there death threats over cartoonists drawing images of Allah- Do Christians really want to take that over sensitivity as a model.

I and Jeo, maybe some others, have already stated that we aren't even sure if the piss part was the offense people are taking, or if it's the fact that Xtian beliefs in God showing signs was made fun of. I'm surprised this hasn't really been addressed since it seems to be at the root of the problem. The thread starter has only said "there's a double standard" and so far, this has been the thread starters only example, aside from statements like "it happens all the time" and so forth. No one really seems to agree this is the case, since we've provided so many examples of equal opportunity offenses in America.

[Digifruitella]

Originally Posted by SkyNet

It's people like whoever bitch about this harmless episode that make this country such a terrible place... everything is something to bitch about, you cant let creative people just do their thing, you have to tear them apart because they are more creative than you are (you being the vast majority of religious people in this country, or any one who agrees with anything Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson say)

Yeah, that's real creative.

(and note when i say "You" i am speaking in generalizations, not to any particular person.. although Glenn Beck is a complete idiot, but thats another discussion)!

Then use "one" instead.