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  #121  
Old 03-25-2012, 12:08 PM
^
Ever think for a second that it's not Christianity in and of itself that's bad, but many of the people that follow it that have perverted it for their sick reasons? I grew up in Christianity, even though I've deviated from it, and there was nothing that Jesus said that was ever in line of what mainstream republicans are saying. He never once mentioned homosexuality, for one thing. I could go on, but you'll probably dismiss me as a blind idiot, so I'm wasting my time.
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  #122  
Old 03-25-2012, 12:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
MovieMaster, you act as if christianity hasnt been spilling blood for hundreds of years. That is even has a RIGHT to be defended after the centuries of harm it's caused.

This is usually the response you get when discussing Christianity with a hardcore non believer - "Yea well remember the crusades? Christianity kills man!". That is fine and dandy if this were a thousand years ago. The argument today is old, stale, and isn't valid. If you still think that, because of a handful of nuts like Westboro, that all Christians are nuts well it seems that you have an issue with not knowing the difference between a negative stereotype and the real thing. Like Jaw, you are fine being a bigot towards anyone religious but God forbid someone speak out against something you are fine with, the first thing you turn around and do is call them bigots and hate mongers as you hurl insults and foam at the mouth with fury and hatred.

It is fine that you or anyone else chooses not to believe in a God or choose a God different than mine.

As far as being born gay vs a choice. That is still up in the air. It always will be. You have no scientific proof that there is something in your genes, an on/off switch, that decides your sexual fate. People go through things in life that form them, physically and mentally. IMO you are not just born into this world a gay baby. You grow and due to circumstance at some point your sexuality is formed from both negative and positive input. How you accept that is what, again imo, decides what you enjoy sexually and who you enjoy it with.


Just for once, try to reply back in a civil manner without insulting the religious members of the boards. If you can not do this you are no better than Kirk Cameron. Do you really want to be that low?
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  #123  
Old 03-25-2012, 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
MovieMaster, you act as if christianity hasnt been spilling blood for hundreds of years. That is even has a RIGHT to be defended after the centuries of harm it's caused.

I think religion turns people into fucking idiots. A lot of them otherwise good, decent people, who have just been hammered with it from a young age. Jaw doesnt want to say it, I will. It's fucking brainwashing. I see no difference between organized religion and the Manchurian Candidate.

You see children out there with the Westboro Baptist Church yelling "Kill the faggots!". They dont know what the'yre saying, they're just following. Thats who religion is for. Followers.

At best, Christianity is a set of moral guidelines. Dont steal. Dont kill people. Etc. No fucking shit. I dont need a book to tell me what is right and what is wrong, and what Kirk does and says, and what an awful lot - and increasing - number of christians do and say in the name of their god, is wrong. Plain and simple.

Someday, somewhere, a person like Kirk Cameron will find themselves in a position of power. We can only hope it's not in this country (Im looking at you, Santorum.) But somewhere a religious extremist, a far-right conservative, will become ruler or president. If that happens, it wont be long before being gay is illegal, and punishable by death.

Actually, it's already happening in Uganda. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_...sexuality_Bill

You dont see Buddhists out there murdering people. Its a religion. The teaching of the fictional character of Jesus - not so bad, mostly based around Eastern religion and the teaching of the Buddha, mixed in with Hercules (father a god, mother a human, wander the earth, etc.), mostly about being a hippie and being kind to one another. But, if it was ever even real, Christianity has twisted it.

Not all religion is bad, per se. Taoism, for example, is quite peaceful and involves being harmonious with nature, grown out of 6000 years of Chinese culture. So, no, not all religion is bad. But yours is.

There has been too many altar boys molested, too many wars started, too much blood spilled, too many hate crimes committed - and all in he name of their "Lord" - for me to ever, ever, have any respect for anyone that so blindly follows something that is so very plainly and openly bigoted, hateful and murderous.

Thank you Adam. Well said sir, couldn't agree MORE with you on this.
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  #124  
Old 03-25-2012, 03:20 PM
The hatefulness on this board is palpable.
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  #125  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
Depends on the household you grow up in. Some people are born/raised/die a certain religion with really no choice.

That is not the case every time but it happens more than you would think.
I was raised Christian. I'm an agnostic now.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
As far as being born gay vs a choice. That is still up in the air. It always will be. You have no scientific proof that there is something in your genes, an on/off switch, that decides your sexual fate. People go through things in life that form them, physically and mentally. IMO you are not just born into this world a gay baby. You grow and due to circumstance at some point your sexuality is formed from both negative and positive input. How you accept that is what, again imo, decides what you enjoy sexually and who you enjoy it with.

OK then...Why would someone in Uganda (for example) choose to be gay when it could lead to life imprisonment or execution? Why would someone choose to be discriminated against?

"Negative and positive input"?
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  #126  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tweek View Post
Why would someone in Uganda (for example) choose to be gay when it could lead to life imprisonment or execution? Why would someone choose to be discriminated against?

"Negative and positive input"?

I wouldn't say it was a choice, like am I having cereal or toast for breakfast, but there are influences both positive and negative, that mold who we are as we grow. Shouldn't be that hard to understand.

For example. I had a cousin who was straight. She loved boys/men. At the age of 20 she was raped by a male relative. After this happened she "became" gay. Up until she died I would talk to her about it and she had no gay tenancies at all but that one act (NEGATIVE) had enough influence on her to make her seek out women as companions/lovers.

This is not the case, obviously, for everyone. I am just pointing out that things/people/circumstances in our lives at all times affect who we are and who we become.

Scientifically it would make no sense for their to be a gay gene, which is why it hasn't been found.
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  #127  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
This is usually the response you get when discussing Christianity with a hardcore non believer - "Yea well remember the crusades? Christianity kills man!". That is fine and dandy if this were a thousand years ago. The argument today is old, stale, and isn't valid. If you still think that, because of a handful of nuts like Westboro, that all Christians are nuts well it seems that you have an issue with not knowing the difference between a negative stereotype and the real thing. Like Jaw, you are fine being a bigot towards anyone religious but God forbid someone speak out against something you are fine with, the first thing you turn around and do is call them bigots and hate mongers as you hurl insults and foam at the mouth with fury and hatred.

It is fine that you or anyone else chooses not to believe in a God or choose a God different than mine.

As far as being born gay vs a choice. That is still up in the air. It always will be. You have no scientific proof that there is something in your genes, an on/off switch, that decides your sexual fate. People go through things in life that form them, physically and mentally. IMO you are not just born into this world a gay baby. You grow and due to circumstance at some point your sexuality is formed from both negative and positive input. How you accept that is what, again imo, decides what you enjoy sexually and who you enjoy it with.


Just for once, try to reply back in a civil manner without insulting the religious members of the boards. If you can not do this you are no better than Kirk Cameron. Do you really want to be that low?

Oh, you want something a little more recent? http://scienceblogs.com/dispatches/2...ests_200_d.php

OR how about you look up the word "suicide bomber". They're not bombing people for their health, they're doing it because their religion tells them to.

As far as not being born gay, this is the most bigoted thing you can say. Every single gay person will disagree with this. AND THERE IS some proof, of a gene that develops during pregnancy, that is one of the LAST to develop, that determines the sex.

Go one the street and ask any gay person if they've chosen to be gay. I'll wait.
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  #128  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post

Go one the street and ask any gay person if they've chosen to be gay. I'll wait.

Show me where I said it was a choice. Go back and reread what I have said to you and Tweek.



As far as priests molesting children, there are gay people that molest children as well. So what is your point? There are straight, atheists, who molest people. Your replies, trying to show the evils of religion pretty much apply to everyone. Some religious nutjobs do harm while saying it is in God's name. Some atheist nutjobs kill and say it was just for fun.

Crazy people are crazy. End of story.
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  #129  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
OR how about you look up the word "suicide bomber". They're not bombing people for their health, they're doing it because their religion tells them to.
For the record, no religion that I have ever heard of, asks its followers to suicide bomb. Point this out in the Bible, Koran, Talmud, or even the Veda please?
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  #130  
Old 03-25-2012, 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
As far as priests molesting children, there are gay people that molest children as well. So what is your point? There are straight, atheists, who molest people. Your replies, trying to show the evils of religion pretty much apply to everyone. Some religious nutjobs do harm while saying it is in God's name. Some atheist nutjobs kill and say it was just for fun.

Crazy people are crazy. End of story.
This.
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  #131  
Old 03-25-2012, 06:50 PM
Cameron said something silly, but more to the point against him, Cameron funds and promotes homophobic organizations that actively involve themselves in trying to limit the rights of gays.

And sometimes patterning is generalizing, but not always. An institution of religion really did perpetuate the abuse of children by shuffling, relocating, hiding and protecting those priests accountable. Although Penn State is accused of doing something similar, and that's not a religious institution.

Quote:
Crazy people are crazy. End of story.
Yeah, but if people aren't born gay they certainly aren't born crazy. And then we're back to square one arguing for the elusive cause of assholeism in the world that's probably not so elusive after all, since most people seem to be assholes because of things like poverty, persecution, abuse, and all those other unhealthy dysfunctions we should probably pay more attention to than adam and steve frolicking in the garden- unless, of course, someone thinks homosexuality is unhealthy, but then I have just argued myself out of arguing.

Crab apples!
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  #132  
Old 03-26-2012, 05:33 AM
It's dumbfuck hypocrites like him who pick and choose the things they do and don't want to follow in their faith that started me down the path to completely abandoning religion in the first place. I mean, why would anyone who practices Christianity the 'right' way (i.e. being 'Christ-like') want to be associated with this kind of person?
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  #133  
Old 03-26-2012, 09:06 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
As far as being born gay vs a choice. That is still up in the air. It always will be. You have no scientific proof that there is something in your genes, an on/off switch, that decides your sexual fate.
Except for this:

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/...ound-gay-gene/
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  #134  
Old 03-26-2012, 09:32 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...exual_behavior
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  #135  
Old 03-26-2012, 11:07 AM
Remember the argument over whether or not homosexuality is inborn usually doesn't come out of innocent curiosity, so it's not due innocent advocating. The argument's intention is to try and show that homosexuals can change their ways. That's where it came from, and that's the context in which it persists. So regardless of whether or not you can accept absolute proof atm that homosexuality is inherited genetically, predisposed by our environment, or whatever other possibility you want to consider, the off putting essence of the thing remains.

And while I do think it's predisposed, that's neither here nor there in a moral sense. I also think pedophilia is predisposed, yet I would still discourage that sexual dysfunction regardless of how 'unhealthy' it felt for the pedophile. A lot of sexually aggressive behaviors also seem to come up in our early formative years, predisposing people later in life, but I would still discourage that aggression if it become violent, forceful or illegal. There are some sexual preferences out there that are actually harmful and predatory to a non consensual party, and the likelihood of their predisposition doesn't faze me. Similarly, while I think homosexuality is natural, that is neither here nor there in a moral sense. I actually haven't bothered to look into whether or not adult animals ever engage in any kind of pedophilia, but I do know animals can be sexually forceful, meaning rape is natural, meaning the naturalness of the behavior isn't really important to the discussion.

What would be interesting is if someone could find an unnatural behavior. Because I don't think there is such a thing.
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  #136  
Old 03-26-2012, 03:27 PM
^Shini would you consider suicide to be 'unnatural behavior?' People that fail multiple suicide attempts usually blame the survival instinct that kicks in at the last moment. Even those who want to end their life find suicide to be very difficult.
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  #137  
Old 03-26-2012, 04:35 PM
Apparently there are plenty of social and pack animals capable of performing a basic sort of suicide if separated from their pack or socially traumatized in another way. They become despondent and don't eat or drink and wait to die. People kill themselves in a lot more spectacular ways, but suicidal behavior seems to be present in nature.
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  #138  
Old 03-26-2012, 04:45 PM
O
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  #139  
Old 03-26-2012, 08:36 PM
Wow. Are there really people who still think being gay is a choice? Did I fall back in time to 1986 or something?
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  #140  
Old 03-26-2012, 09:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbird View Post
Wow. Are there really people who still think being gay is a choice? Did I fall back in time to 1986 or something?
Pretty much what I was thinking. Baffling. Hey Badbird, did you know I CHOOSE to have brown eyes and brown hair? Just like millions of others?

But that's not ALL! I CHOOSE to be gay too, because that way I get more negative attention from hateful religious lunatics too, which I just LOOOOVE! Isn't that awesome?!?!

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  #141  
Old 03-27-2012, 08:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbird View Post
Wow. Are there really people who still think being gay is a choice? Did I fall back in time to 1986 or something?

I am still trying to find out where anyone here said being gay was a choice?
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  #142  
Old 03-27-2012, 08:57 AM
.

Last edited by SS-Block; 01-22-2015 at 06:15 AM..
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  #143  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SS-Block View Post
True.

Pets who have pack instincts and are suffering in a mostly isolated life with little contact with its pack other than being shrieked at often refuse to eat. That's not the only reason for an animal not eating, but it is one reason.
Another reason is when you buy the chicken flavored kibble when you know they prefer the tuna.
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  #144  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:31 AM
It's amazing how one ignorant "celebrity" can set off a slew of posts about religion and its backwards tenets. I guess I might as well be drawn into it as well...

Though, I think answering the question "is Kirk Cameron relevant" determined how much or little we care about what comes out of his mouth, and we should therefore ignore what he has to say from hereon.

As to the religious debate, I've learned that you can't successfully argue reason against faith. Religions have a knack of indoctrinating their followers to their beliefs and core "values". The defence of "I have faith" supercedes all reasonable debate and has to end any argument as to the existence of a supreme being. This defence is a protected right in our society, and whatever reasonable or convicing argument any one person may make will only be ignored by the most devout theist.

jaw2929, you must realize that your one-man stand against religion is futile. Declaring over and over how religion has failed humanity won't convince a devout theist that his/her core beliefs are false. You may no longer see the shadows on the wall, but they are content at seeing them.

As to the gay debate, who gives a shit if their sexual orientation is scientific or not?! These people are loving whomever they want, and love isn't a science!
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  #145  
Old 03-27-2012, 09:37 AM
Basically.
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  #146  
Old 03-27-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
Another reason is when you buy the chicken flavored kibble when you know they prefer the tuna.
lol . Snobs. I've had dogs who wait before eating until i've said there's nothing else, as if they were expecting me to pour them a glass of wine or something.
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  #147  
Old 03-27-2012, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by SS-Block View Post
lol . Snobs. I've had dogs who wait before eating until i've said there's nothing else, as if they were expecting me to pour them a glass of wine or something.
I know, it's like "I just watched you lick your own ass for ten minutes and you're suddenly too good for Meow Mix?"
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  #148  
Old 03-27-2012, 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
I am still trying to find out where anyone here said being gay was a choice?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post

As far as being born gay vs a choice. That is still up in the air. It always will be. You have no scientific proof that there is something in your genes, an on/off switch, that decides your sexual fate.
There it is.
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  #149  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:19 PM
He didn't say it was a choice, he said he was unsure. I disagree with him on that, but learn to read dude.
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  #150  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ClydeNut View Post
He didn't say it was a choice, he said he was unsure. I disagree with him on that, but learn to read dude.
The fact he was posing it as a question is asinine.
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  #151  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Badbird View Post
There it is.


Hah whoops my bad. I should have worded that better and paid more attention. I should have said something along the lines of "genetics vs environment".
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  #152  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaw2929 View Post
The fact he was posing it as a question is asinine.
How is it asinine when there is no scientific proof either way at the moment. It is just as asinine to accept one theory over another without solid proof which is what you have done. As I corrected myself, my wording was off, but my arguments should have made it clear how I felt on the subject and that I did not think it was a choice. I even provided a true to life example of how a situation can change someone's sexual orientation. It was a negative one but I am sure having a positive gay role model or maybe gay parents could have the same affect. I wanted to clarify that as well, that I didn't think only negatives could cause a switch in sexual orientation. I should have expanded on that as well.
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  #153  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaw2929 View Post
The fact he was posing it as a question is asinine.
It doesn't matter. He was being accused of explicitly stating it was a choice, which he did not. You can try to condescend to me and argue all you want, that's all you've been doing anyway, but the posts are there, and I'm right.

Last edited by ClydeNut; 03-27-2012 at 06:53 PM..
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  #154  
Old 03-27-2012, 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
How is it asinine when there is no scientific proof either way at the moment.
What did you think about the article I posted earlier? Scientists in Korea were able to change the sexual orientation of mice by removing a gene linked to reproductive behavior.
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  #155  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:07 PM
Quote:
The fact he was posing it as a question is asinine.
Do you think sexuality as a whole is predisposed, or is that an unfair question (I'm trying to get you to generalize)? Beyond gender preferences, but also fetishes, dysfunctions? And what of the cases about sexually active people who have an experience that causes their sexuality to change, pervert or stunt?

Quote:
I should have said something along the lines of "genetics vs environment".
To add to that, is modern science beyond a reasonable doubt between what sexuality is 'conceived' and what sexuality is 'caused'?

It's a tricky area.
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  #156  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
What did you think about the article I posted earlier? Scientists in Korea were able to change the sexual orientation of mice by removing a gene linked to reproductive behavior.

I read through it but I have always been doubtful on much of the overseas(specifically Asia) research when it comes to genetics. Especially all the false claims of cloning and other scientific breakthroughs that never materialized beyond a few hyped up articles.

I am not saying it isn't an important discovery but I would prefer it to come from a more reliable source. There hasn't been much more released on the FucM gene since it was announced in mid 2010 so I am not holding my breath.
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  #157  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinigami View Post
To add to that, is modern science beyond a reasonable doubt between what sexuality is 'conceived' and what sexuality is 'caused'?

It's a tricky area.


I've thought long and hard on this and my best answer would be.........




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  #158  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMaster View Post
I read through it but I have always been doubtful on much of the overseas(specifically Asia) research when it comes to genetics. Especially all the false claims of cloning and other scientific breakthroughs that never materialized beyond a few hyped up articles.

I am not saying it isn't an important discovery but I would prefer it to come from a more reliable source. There hasn't been much more released on the FucM gene since it was announced in mid 2010 so I am not holding my breath.
Yeah, I guess you're right. If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that Asian people aren't very good at science or math.
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  #159  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
Yeah, I guess you're right. If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that Asian people aren't very good at science or math.

That's racist!


Haha but really it isn't so much their level of education or abilities with science, it is just that the region is pretty well known for false claims in both sciences and medicine.
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  #160  
Old 03-27-2012, 07:59 PM
It sounds like the experiment made the brain of the female mouse over with masculine impulses. The director specifies it only affected the 'sexual' patterning of the brain, but in the report it sounds like the mouse just kinda behaved the way a male would behave. The cited examples are all apparently connected to sexuality - not sniffing male urine, for example, but the behaviors of mice are simple enough that the only time they really individualize their genders is with regards to sex. It sounds less like they found a way to dispose gay female mice, than they found a way to make a female mouse behave as if it was a male mouse. Which isn't homosexuality. Gay men don't necessarily act like women, and gay women don't necessarily act like men.
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