I hate electronic music.

[Jerk Shapiro]

I don't even feel like I should have to say anymore to back up my stance - but that's not how we do things around here, now is it?

I do. I do. I do. I've been playing guitar for over a decade now and have been playing music professionally for going on three years - and I see the market of college kids and younger adults who used to come to my shows flocking to things like Deadmau5 and Skrillex. (Please don't turn this into a "DeadMau5 and Skrillex fucking blow dude - check out Shpongle for some REAL EDM)

These are just examples. I'm not angry because fan bases for actual instrument-playing musicians are dwindling - I'm angry because they're being lost to this bullshit. How can anyone be entertained by the sounds of a dude fucking around on a Macbook? There's no "skill" or "craftsmanship" involved... like when Django Rheindhardt or Charlie Parker used to wow audiences with their melodic lines and phrasing, and bring tears to people's eyes with one sustained note that you could actually see reaching up to the Heavens - no - no - no - this is drug-induced, dance-all-night-rave-shit. I've never known anyone who went to these shows sober. I've never heard anyone come back from Big Gigantic and say "Damn, dude... I had a couple of beers, hit a joint - and the show blew my mind!" ... It's usually a lot more like: "Holy fuck, dude - I found this killer MDMA and fucking rolled balls all night. My face is still somewhere in the theater brah!"

It's a horrible scene that's derived from horrible music. As someone who has literally worked my fingers to the calloused bone to learn a craft and create my own voice through something as beautiful as the guitar, it really irks me that these kids these days just wanna hear some super heavy bass, some distorted vocals, and computer-y bells and whistles. Nothing more.

[SkyNet]

Can't fault you for your opinion sir.. I however am the opposite. Now before I go on, i will say that my top 2 favorite bands are Metallica and Between The Buried & Me, a man like yourself who plays guitar and appreciates quality finger to the bones music can appreciate both of those artists. Metallica is great, but Between the Buried & me has some of the greatest guitar riffs ever put down. Check out White Walls, the last 3 or so minutes... the greatest thing I have ever heard!

BUT, I also enjoy artists like DJ Tiesto and other remixes. There is a mood that goes along with Trance/ Techno/ Electronic music just as there is with other types of music. Personally, I don't think I have heard a Skrillex or Deadmau5 track, and I think the problem is that there are artists out there that are simply trendy, Skrillex and Deadmau5 fit into that category, which I know isn't the point of your complaint, it is my own off shoot of a complaint!

you know, ya can't like all types of music! I personally can't find any redeeming quality in Country Music! Which is really the only style of music I flat out can't stand!

I love classical music (Phillip Glass, or the classics Beethoven, Mozart, Bach)
Film Scores are phenomenal.Rock music is good (Like Sum 41 or that type of rock). Metal is of course amazing (Like the aforementioned BTBAM & Metallica). Rap even has some quality artists (Kanye West, even though he is an ass hole is a good musician, Mos Def). I guess there is a second type of music I don't like, that Disney Channel bullshit, fucking terrible. I don't mean old school boy Bands, cuz I will jam to some Backstreet Boys, I'm talking these stupid 13-15 year old tool bag boy bands or chick singers that sing songs like "Baby, you are beautiful" or any of that Justin Bieber horse shit!

[Jerk Shapiro]

I feel pretty much the same way as you (minus the enjoyment of "techno" music)... I listen to a ton of Charlie Parker and Igor Stravinsky, mixed in with a lot of Grateful Dead and just really whatever the hell I'm feeling like at the moment. (Actually, at the moment, I'm digging on those last few minutes of White Walls - and I urge you to check out "Wizard Burial Ground" by Umphrey's McGee - I think you'll dig it - there are a few sick live videos on Youtube)

But I just can't bring myself to appreciate what someone does on a computer as compared to what someone does with an instrument - or even what a composer LIKE Stravinsky might do. These guys pull inspiration out God, the Devil, thin air, nature, women, men, drugs, whatever... I can't ever seem to grasp that coming through in electronic music. It just feels soul-less to me.

[starcat]

I really enjoy the casio synth sound found in alot of 80s pop, does that count?

[Gebs-]

Went to a Big Gigantic show two weeks ago, was completely sober, and had a fucking amazing time. Now you know at least one person.

[SkyNet]

That Wizard Burial Ground is some quality guitar work! Is that band mostly instrumental like that? or is that just one of their few all music tracks?

Im glad you listened to the BTBAM track dude! I know the preceding 10-13 minutes of the song isn't for everyone, but my god those last few minutes of guitar work, just fucking epic!

I forgot to mention in my original post, that another type of music that I am in love with is good ole 1950's Doo Wop! I bought the time life Doo Wop box set and everything! If you are man who appreciates when there is soul and meaning behind the music being played, than surely you must like some good ole Doo Wop!

Also have you ever heard of Isis? This Wizard song kind of reminds me of a little bit softer version of them... more melodic but equally awesome instrumental tracks!

[someguy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF1lU-CrQfc

[fixedMind]

Originally Posted by someguy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eF1lU-CrQfc

The modern Bill Cosby.

[Dirtyfrog]

Sounds like a "coming of age" argument.

Early 90s , i only listened to death metal ( Death , Suffocation , Obituary , Cannibal Corpse , etc ) and everything else was shit .... by shit i mean , if you didn't listen to death meatl , you were gay. I was serious and 19.

Over time , i switched my thinking .... 1st because death metal is a limited genre and you can only hear about 100 cds before you heard all it's got to offer.

Then you switch style ..... for me it was industrial. Skinny Puppy , Ministry , Front Line Assembly , etc. It was an easy switch tho .... electronic music with heavy metal influence. Prodigy was also nice.

After that i discovered techno/trance ..... prolly because i started popping ecstacy and speed. Gone was the metal & guitar side and it was more full-on electronica. Tiesto , Astral Projection , Paul Oakenfold. Then the circle repeated.

*insert 3 more phases*

Nowadays , i don't care much about style ... i like what i like. Whatever oldie songs i liked , i still like (i.e. Michael Jackson - Beat it ) and i can choose the new songs i like according to some basis.

I like Skrillex but not all his songs ( only 2 good songs on Bangarang btw) and I hate hip-hop but i like Cypress Hill.

I can't find a bad Deftones song but i stopped listening to Metallica at the black album. Go figure.

[Digifruitella]

Originally Posted by Jerk Shapiro

I don't even feel like I should have to say anymore to back up my stance - but that's not how we do things around here, now is it?

I do. I do. I do. I've been playing guitar for over a decade now and have been playing music professionally for going on three years - and I see the market of college kids and younger adults who used to come to my shows flocking to things like Deadmau5 and Skrillex. (Please don't turn this into a "DeadMau5 and Skrillex fucking blow dude - check out Shpongle for some REAL EDM)

These are just examples. I'm not angry because fan bases for actual instrument-playing musicians are dwindling - I'm angry because they're being lost to this bullshit. How can anyone be entertained by the sounds of a dude fucking around on a Macbook? There's no "skill" or "craftsmanship" involved... like when Django Rheindhardt or Charlie Parker used to wow audiences with their melodic lines and phrasing, and bring tears to people's eyes with one sustained note that you could actually see reaching up to the Heavens - no - no - no - this is drug-induced, dance-all-night-rave-shit. I've never known anyone who went to these shows sober. I've never heard anyone come back from Big Gigantic and say "Damn, dude... I had a couple of beers, hit a joint - and the show blew my mind!" ... It's usually a lot more like: "Holy fuck, dude - I found this killer MDMA and fucking rolled balls all night. My face is still somewhere in the theater brah!"

It's a horrible scene that's derived from horrible music. As someone who has literally worked my fingers to the calloused bone to learn a craft and create my own voice through something as beautiful as the guitar, it really irks me that these kids these days just wanna hear some super heavy bass, some distorted vocals, and computer-y bells and whistles. Nothing more.

You shouldn't generalize like that. If you think electronic music is all about "messing on a Macbook" then you're wrong. "No skill or craftsmanship involved" is also a bullshit attack, a humongous generalization and a slap in the face of hundreds of great producers of EDM if your entire argument is based on listening to hack "producers" like Deadmau5 and Skrillex - who in itself couldn't be more worse of a choice to base such an argument. I know you've included Shpongle, so I give you props, but then I don't understand what your beef is either if you mention them and say "REAL EDM" Be more specific then and say "I hate brostep" or a, b, c of EDM.

It's just really sounds like you're dissing them all when you say it like that. I don't like listening to certain music but I never hate on it. Whatever works. Plus there's a lot of great electronic music that this forum's music section hasn't even seen the light of day, nor would I guess the people who post here.

Rave and popping X has always been part of that culture. What difference does it make if you're listening to Pink Floyd stoned or feeling the euphoria to some great trance?

I agree that the current trend, especially in the US, with Skrillex and Datsik and Excision who have made "brostep" popular has really appealed to the teenyboppers who don't even know or have heard any other type of electronic music to fully appreciate that spectrum.. but that's just a fucking crowd that's giving it a bad name. It sucks, but you can't do anything about it, especially when it takes over the market by storm. It's like when I first let some of my friends listen to breakbeat in high school and they were like "Oh it's techno" Same thing here, Skrillex = "dubstep" when all he does is a bastardized version of it aka brostep that's so popular and has taken over tv spots and trailers. So essentially your beef should be with a particular group of people vibing to that type of music, but it's a group... that's all it is. There's plenty of great EDM producers and people who appreciate them, and good music.

But because you've hurt your fingers learning guitar while someone messed with a Macbook, and made a great track (nevermind the shitty ones) it doesn't make you any better or creative.

Just a few examples (click on link)
Gui Boratto - No Turning Back
Way Out West - Surrender
Hybrid - Finished Symphony
Tycho - Adrift
Boards of Canada - Dayvan Cowboy
Sasha - Wavy Gravy
d_rradio - Still In a Storm
Arovane - Amine
Ruxpin - Oceanus and Tethys
Hybrid - Higher Than A Skyscraper

[Dehydrator]

What is wrong with people going off on MDMA? Sure, it´s a drug but so is beer. I think what you mean is that the people that made up your "horrible scene" are willing to listen to anything and dance to anything while "traditional" music fans are more picky and aware? Gotta disagree on that. Especially in the last ten years or so I feel that there´s more fucking terrible rock and pop than ever. Electronic music is a more than welcome alternative (and it has been around since the eighties, so it´s not a hype-thing at all anymore in my book) to go out and have a blast. Don´t get me wrong, I´m an avid listener of traditional rock. I worship Iron Maiden. I love Nick Cave, Janis Joplin, Pink Floyd, The Doors...I´m 31 years old and collected records and cds for years. But I get goosebumbs at Cazzete´s dubstep remix of "Video Games". And I can´t wait to go fucking nuts the next time someone plays it at my club. Same with lots of drum and bass and minimal stuff. What I mean is to me music is divided into just two genres. Stuff I can get into and stuff I loathe on sight. "Electronic" or "non electronic" aren´t quality trademarks at all.

[Jerk Shapiro]

Originally Posted by Dehydrator

What is wrong with people going off on MDMA? Sure, it´s a drug but so is beer. I think what you mean is that the people that made up your "horrible scene" are willing to listen to anything and dance to anything while "traditional" music fans are more picky and aware? Gotta disagree on that. Especially in the last ten years or so I feel that there´s more fucking terrible rock and pop than ever. Electronic music is a more than welcome alternative (and it has been around since the eighties, so it´s not a hype-thing at all anymore in my book) to go out and have a blast. Don´t get me wrong, I´m an avid listener of traditional rock. I worship Iron Maiden. I love Nick Cave, Janis Joplin, Pink Floyd, The Doors...I´m 31 years old and collected records and cds for years. But I get goosebumbs at Cazzete´s dubstep remix of "Video Games". And I can´t wait to go fucking nuts the next time someone plays it at my club. Same with lots of drum and bass and minimal stuff. What I mean is to me music is divided into just two genres. Stuff I can get into and stuff I loathe on sight. "Electronic" or "non electronic" aren´t quality trademarks at all.

There's nothing wrong with MDMA. I've done a lot of it in my life and I'll probably do a lot more before it's all said and done. It just seems like the scene, the live scene anyway, is really dependent on the concert-goers rolling their balls off. Which is fine - but just not for me anymore. I've been to shows rolling balls where I felt really sad later that I was too fucked up to remember the songs that have been played. That was about four years ago. Now when I go see a show I really want to see - I only drink beer and do whatever other party favors I enjoy. . . but I don't have to get completely spun to do so.

And on the point of me generalizing - yeah - probably so. I have an immensely vast and varied range of music that I love - and I'm sure, floating out there in the aether, there's an electronic song that I would "dig". But I would just dig it - nothing more. I don't think I'll ever hear a "techno" song and say - "Wow, there's so much soul and emotion in this - I can barely stand it!" I just can't find that in it.

[Jerk Shapiro]

Originally Posted by SkyNet

That Wizard Burial Ground is some quality guitar work! Is that band mostly instrumental like that? or is that just one of their few all music tracks?

Im glad you listened to the BTBAM track dude! I know the preceding 10-13 minutes of the song isn't for everyone, but my god those last few minutes of guitar work, just fucking epic!

I forgot to mention in my original post, that another type of music that I am in love with is good ole 1950's Doo Wop! I bought the time life Doo Wop box set and everything! If you are man who appreciates when there is soul and meaning behind the music being played, than surely you must like some good ole Doo Wop!

Also have you ever heard of Isis? This Wizard song kind of reminds me of a little bit softer version of them... more melodic but equally awesome instrumental tracks!

I'd say Umphrey's has about a dozen instrumental songs they jam on the reg. But all their stuff is really progressive. Most are quick to write them off because they are in fact a "jam band"... but once you move past labels into actual appreciation of musicianship - it's easy to see why there's a lot of love for these guys.

And fuck yes I dig soul and doo wop... Al Green, Wilson Pickett, Nina Simone, etc... I love soul music. And I'll check out Isis very soon.

[Digifruitella]

Originally Posted by Jerk Shapiro

There's nothing wrong with MDMA. I've done a lot of it in my life and I'll probably do a lot more before it's all said and done. It just seems like the scene, the live scene anyway, is really dependent on the concert-goers rolling their balls off. Which is fine - but just not for me anymore. I've been to shows rolling balls where I felt really sad later that I was too fucked up to remember the songs that have been played. That was about four years ago. Now when I go see a show I really want to see - I only drink beer and do whatever other party favors I enjoy. . . but I don't have to get completely spun to do so.

And on the point of me generalizing - yeah - probably so. I have an immensely vast and varied range of music that I love - and I'm sure, floating out there in the aether, there's an electronic song that I would "dig". But I would just dig it - nothing more. I don't think I'll ever hear a "techno" song and say - "Wow, there's so much soul and emotion in this - I can barely stand it!" I just can't find that in it.

I know plenty of people who hit the clubs and don't do the thing you describe.

I don't think I'll ever hear a "techno" song and say - "Wow, there's so much soul and emotion in this - I can barely stand it!" I just can't find that in it.

Who said that music has to possess soul and emotion? (that concept is subjective in music anyway) Music can be primitive, you don't need to look any further than various tribes now and then. It's not something I expect all to understand or feel, but there's a lot of music that you can just "lock in" to if you possess that mentality. As far as you enjoying techno or not that's fine - there are who do. It just means that their brainwaves are activated in other ways. That's what makes us all different anyway.

[Lost in Space]

EDM hates you too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUH4AwWzWx0

I'll rave and do all the ketamine I want.


p.s. MDMA is pretty passe now

[Dirtyfrog]

i'm old .... havent heard the word EDM since the mid-80s when Front 242 was the shit.

[Jerk Shapiro]

Originally Posted by Digifruitella

I know plenty of people who hit the clubs and don't do the thing you describe.



Who said that music has to possess soul and emotion?

The same person who said movies had to possess soul and emotion.. or paintings, or a novel... What is art if it doesn't possess some sort of soul/emotion? I mean... a painting is nothing more than paint strewn over a canvas in an organized manner - nothing crazy - but the Mona Lisa possesses some sort of soul - something in the "eyes" that draws you in...

Music is nothing more than 12 notes arranged over different chordal textures, melodies, meters and rhythms in an organized manner. I could sit and strum chords all day, but if there's no soul behind it - it doesn't make two fucks.

And yes - primitive tribal music possesses tons of soul and tons of emotion. I mean, these people are beating on drums to put themselves in a trance-like state to astral project or see visions of ancestors or what-have-you... if that doesn't possess some kind of soul or emotion - I don't know what does.

Art IS soul and emotion - portrayed in creative ways.

[someguy]

What you're doing in here is the equivalent of dismissing rock music because you heard Nickelback.

[Cop No. 633]

I think at this point, you can't discredit somebody who uses a computer to compose a song. It reminds me of the instrument purists who talked shit about early rappers for not playing a "real" instrument. It's an argument of the past. People are going to make music anyway they can.

Electronic music can most certainly have soul:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrjwqXwyzNU (sorry about the advert)

[MikeMovie]

A Digital Audio Workstation is a complex program. Essentially, it is its own instrument. The program isn't easy to use.

The thing about a 'DAW', like Logic, is that someone with a basic understanding of it could theoretically make an entire song in 5-10 minutes. Because of this, people assume that everybody who uses Logic must be making songs in 5-10 minutes.
People assume that its as easy as pressing a button, when in fact theres a lot more that goes into it than that.

It can take me upwards of 5 hours to finish a track in Logic, and thats just a rough mix.

It's all about how you use what you have. That determines your musicianship. There are people who play the hell out of guitar, but lack the vision or the creativity to be anything more than "that guy who can play a mean Spanish Caravan after a few beers."

On the other hand there are Digital producers who are extremely talented and creative.

And on the mutated radioactive third hand, there are those digital producers who make simple shitty tracks in 5-10 minutes and get thousands of dollars for it. Pissin me off.

[Dirtyfrog]

Originally Posted by Cop No. 633

It reminds me of the instrument purists who talked shit about early rappers for not playing a "real" instrument.

Personnally that was never why i discredited rap music. For the 10-20 good rappers out there with something to say , there's always the legion of 100s with the lyrical equivalent of:

Bitch-bitch
scratch my itch
coz my love is a revolver
and i'll crush my enemies like a bulldozer

but on the music side , a "real instrument" is such a loose concept nowadays

ATR still uses the old Atari 7800 with 2 meg memory to compose and assemble their stuff ..... could be done easier with modern technology but it was worth it imo. Compiling it all would have been 50x faster with modern technology but the result is as good.

Atari Teenage Riot - Collapse of History

then again ATR is classified as Digital Punk .... the only band i know in that category

Edit : Damn it , ATR at Coachella !!! Wish they'd come to Montreal this summer ... either HEAVYMTL or OSHEAGA festival

[MikeMovie]

Originally Posted by Dirtyfrog

Personnally that was never why i discredited rap music. For the 10-20 good rappers out there with something to say , there's always the legion of 100s with the lyrical equivalent of:

Bitch-bitch
scratch my itch
coz my love is a revolver
and i'll crush my enemies like a bulldozer

You could say the same of every genre of music. Most rock musicians also have nothing new to contribute to the genre. I've met plenty of rappers who think they're the shit, and suck. But I've also met plenty of guitar players who think they're the next David Gilmour because they can play Shine on You Crazy Diamond.
Personally I don't see a difference in terms of the wannabe ratio.

[Dirtyfrog]

Originally Posted by MikeMovie

You could say the same of every genre of music. Most rock musicians also have nothing new to contribute to the genre. I've met plenty of rappers who think they're the shit, and suck. But I've also met plenty of guitar players who think they're the next David Gilmour because they can play Shine on You Crazy Diamond.
Personally I don't see a difference in terms of the wannabe ratio.

The only difference is rock is mostly a "we play for fun" genre of music where as rap is mostly about attitude..... and bling and shaking all those hot hot chick's ass and having a pimped car that does more push-up per second than me. That kinda overshadow the music. The good/bad ratio is the same but you just tend to notice the rap baddies more.

[MikeMovie]

Originally Posted by Dirtyfrog

The only difference is rock is mostly a "we play for fun" genre of music where as rap is mostly about attitude..... and bling and shaking all those hot hot chick's ass and having a pimped car that does more push-up per second than me. That kinda overshadow the music. The good/bad ratio is the same but you just tend to notice the rap baddies more.

you know what, that's true. Bad rap musicians do tend to be very loud about it.

[Digifruitella]

Originally Posted by Jerk Shapiro

The same person who said movies had to possess soul and emotion.. or paintings, or a novel... What is art if it doesn't possess some sort of soul/emotion? I mean... a painting is nothing more than paint strewn over a canvas in an organized manner - nothing crazy - but the Mona Lisa possesses some sort of soul - something in the "eyes" that draws you in...

Music is nothing more than 12 notes arranged over different chordal textures, melodies, meters and rhythms in an organized manner. I could sit and strum chords all day, but if there's no soul behind it - it doesn't make two fucks.

And yes - primitive tribal music possesses tons of soul and tons of emotion. I mean, these people are beating on drums to put themselves in a trance-like state to astral project or see visions of ancestors or what-have-you... if that doesn't possess some kind of soul or emotion - I don't know what does.

Art IS soul and emotion - portrayed in creative ways.

Actually my bad, I definitely worded what I meant wrong and hurried to post, and no I'm not playing it off or anything. What I was responding to and meant by that "soul" and "emotion" is that the type of emotions you're looking for in electronic music, you're not seeing or finding. Good call on primitive music, yes it possesses both things. I think the issues you're having is with a particular crowd enjoying a particular type of music; those are personal issues though. But even a minimal techno tune with the most primitive beat pattern possesses feeling I can't describe to you if you can't hear them. Yep. Art IS soul and emotion, and that's why when you hear monotony in something, I hear something else that activates my brain cells the way it does not for you, and that's when the common sight happens; people look at you or think you're weird while I say "you just can't hear it".

Etc. EDM is great, there's a lot of shit in there just like there's in any genre, but there's no way it's any worse or lower of a musical ground than Rock, or Classical music. Just as enough creativity goes into production of a tune on a laptop (amongst OTHER instruments and keyboards and synthesizers, etc) as it goes into composing a solo guitar bit. We can argue forever, I'll still disagree with anyone who says EDM sucks based on some brostep tune making waves at clubs made by a 20 year old who's just starting out.

[Dirtyfrog]

Originally Posted by Digifruitella

EDM is great, there's a lot of shit in there just like there's in any genre, but there's no way it's any worse or lower of a musical ground than Rock, or Classical music.

While i agree with your point , dont dismiss Classic as any style of modern music. Most of the "classics" of classical music category i know are 200 years old+ ( so basically everything except John Williams ). Probably why it's called classical music in the first place. In 500 years , Mozart and Beethoven will prolly still be known if no one blew up the earth by then. Can't say the same about 99.99% of the music i know .... maybe The Beatles have a chance.

But yeah , that legendary Woodstock wont mean shit in 100 years from now .... musical newbies already don't give a shit. Even all MY classics songs won't mean much in 2112 .... Guns'N'Roses , Metallica & whatever band/artist i think are the best of all time.

Edit : wish i was a musical cockroach who i could witness what is a "modern classic" in 500 years
I'll just take 3:20 min to celebrate my fav EDM song of all time : http://edgeofurge.com/blog/wp-conten...4/AmySmart.jpg