Chris Rocks in Tweeting Trouble

[DaveyJoeG]

Originally Posted by Shinigami

I am also frustrated by nuance.

Forgive me, but I'm scratching my head at this. Who is this comment directed towards?

[EBastard]

Originally Posted by Cop No. 633

I don't know man. Where I live, every day of February is like this:



And this:


The streets are packed with people dancing, carrying boom boxes, wearing Jordans, and they play chess in the middle of the street! They're obstructing traffic! It's terrible!

Last year was the worst. I was walking home, minding my own business when I bumped into somebody by accident. They became really upset about their shoes after I accidentally scuffed one. He yelled at me to kiss his converse. I ran away in a panic. I didn't know what he meant, but I was scared for my life. So yes, it is a celebratory month! And it's a dangerous one at that!

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

I am black and I have to say that is really offensive.

I'm black and I have to say I got the LULZ like a mother fucker after reading all that.



SHIVER ME TIMBERS...

AND IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE SARCASM IN COP'S STATEMENT, AMERICA IS DOOMED.

[Flimmaker1473]

Originally Posted by EBastard

I'm black and I have to say I got the LULZ like a mother fucker after reading all that.



SHIVER ME TIMBERS...

AND IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE SARCASM IN COP'S STATEMENT, AMERICA IS DOOMED.

People get mad at sarcasm. Look at what is happening over a line in Ted right now.

[EBastard]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

People get mad at sarcasm. Look at what is happening over a line in Ted right now.

I remember there being several, what's the one people are bitching about?



SHIVER ME TIMBERS...

SETH MCFARLANE DOES HAVE A TENDENCY TO GO OVERBOARD WITH THE JEWISH JOKES, IMO.

[QUENTIN]

Not to re-stir the pot, but just because I had it in the back of my mind that this was particularly egregious coming from this source:

Originally Posted by Erroneous

Maybe it is time some of you people stop getting so offended by words typed out on the computer that has nothing to do with them...Words typed in cyber space by the angry little people would not offend me.

Originally Posted by Erroneous

I am insulted by what Rock said.

And I wasn't exaggerating or unfairly generalizing either:

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

It's worth making explicit that it's not just "a lot of people" but the exact same people who complain about America being "too PC" (code for "why can't I say nigger?") are the ones up in arms about Rock not being PC enough.

Originally Posted by Erroneous

I am tired about fighting the NIGGER word. I wish some white person would take it back like porch monkey.

Perhaps most importantly:

Originally Posted by Shinigami

I am also frustrated by nuance.

That was a really great, subtle burn on DJG, Shini.

[Erroneous]

Originally Posted by Squid Vicious

And furthermore, WHY IS THERE NO WHITE HISTORY MONTH??

LOL and to quote a friend
"every month is white history month"

[Erroneous]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

No offense but who cares if a white person is insulted? After years of obsession and slavery I think what he said was just fine.

Sorry man, but people care. I care. To quote Ed Norton in the 25th Hour "Slavery ended one hundred and thirty seven years ago. Move the fuck on!"

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

It's white history month eight out of the 12 months of the year

What makes this even funnier is that I read it after I wrote my last post. This is how black people think about white people. I am not saying it is not true.


Because I know many of you love this speech

Yeah, fuck you, too. Fuck *me*? Fuck *you*, Fuck you and this whole city and everyone in it. Fuck the panhandlers, grubbing for money, and smiling at me behind my back. Fuck the squeegee men dirtying up the clean windshield of my car - get a fucking job! Fuck the Sikhs and the Pakistanis bombing down the avenues in decrepit cabs, curry steaming out their pores stinking up my day. Terrorists in fucking training. SLOW THE FUCK DOWN! Fuck the Chelsea boys with their waxed chests and pumped-up biceps. Going down on each other in my parks and on my piers, jingling their dicks on my Channel 35. Fuck the Korean grocers with their pyramids of overpriced fruit and their tulips and roses wrapped in plastic. Ten years in the country, still no speaky English? Fuck the Russians in Brighton Beach. Mobster thugs sitting in cafés, sipping tea in little glasses, sugar cubes between their teeth. Wheelin' and dealin' and schemin'. Go back where you fucking came from! Fuck the black-hatted Chassidim, strolling up and down 47th street in their dirty gabardine with their dandruff. Selling South African apartheid diamonds! Fuck the Wall Street brokers. Self-styled masters of the universe. Michael Douglas, Gordon Gekko wannabe mother fuckers, figuring out new ways to rob hard working people blind. Send those Enron assholes to jail for FUCKING LIFE! You think Bush and Cheney didn't know about that shit? Give me a fucking break! Tyco! Worldcom! Fuck the Puerto Ricans. Twenty to a car, swelling up the welfare rolls, worst fuckin' parade in the city. And don't even get me started on the Dom-in-i-cans, 'cause they make the Puerto Ricans look good. Fuck the Bensonhurst Italians with their pomaded hair, their nylon warm-up suits, their St. Anthony medallions, swinging their Jason Giambi Louisville Slugger baseball bats, trying to audition for "The Sopranos." Fuck the Upper East Side wives with their Hermès scarves and their fifty-dollar Balducci artichokes. Overfed faces getting pulled and lifted and stretched, all taut and shiny. You're not fooling anybody, sweetheart! Fuck the uptown brothers. They never pass the ball, they don't want to play defense, they take five steps on every lay-up to the hoop. And then they want to turn around and blame everything on the white man. Slavery ended one hundred and thirty seven years ago. Move the fuck on! Fuck the corrupt cops with their anus-violating plungers and their 41 shots, standing behind a blue wall of silence. You betray our trust! Fuck the priests who put their hands down some innocent child's pants. Fuck the church that protects them, delivering us into evil. And while you're at it, fuck J.C.! He got off easy! A day on the cross, a weekend in hell, and all the hallelujahs of the legioned angels for eternity! Try seven years in fuckin' Otisville, J.! Fuck Osama Bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and backward-ass cave-dwelling fundamentalist assholes everywhere. On the names of innocent thousands murdered, I pray you spend the rest of eternity with your seventy-two whores roasting in a jet-fuel fire in hell. You towel-headed camel jockeys can kiss my royal Irish ass! Fuck Jacob Elinsky. Whining malcontent. Fuck Francis Xavier Slaughtery my best friend, judging me while he stares at my girlfriend's ass. Fuck Naturelle Riviera, I gave her my trust and she stabbed me in the back, sold me up the river, fucking bitch. Fuck my father with his endless grief, standing behind that bar sipping on club sodas, selling whisky to firemen, and cheering the Bronx Bombers. Fuck this whole city and everyone in it. From the row-houses of Astoria to the penthouses on Park Avenue, from the projects in the Bronx to the lofts in Soho. From the tenements in Alphabet City to the brownstones in Park Slope to the split-levels in Staten Island. Let an earthquake crumble it, let the fires rage, let it burn to fucking ash and then let the waters rise and submerge this whole rat-infested place.

[Erroneous]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

That was a really great, subtle burn on DJG, Shini.

LOL very rarely do those two have anything of substance to add and as for the other stuff you said, being offended and so offended are different things. What I said does not mean that everyone gets a free pass with whatever they say. I and other are allowed to be offended. Plus, I am not as offended with what he said. I do not like that he can say it and get away with it without hearing tons of shit like white people do. I do not like double standards. Hmm. Double standards.......... a lot of that somewhere else too.

[Erroneous]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

Not to re-stir the pot, but just because I had it in the back of my mind that this was particularly egregious coming from this source:.

I nigger comment was a play on the movie, Clerks 2. No humor today these days? Are you having regular intercourse lately?

[Erroneous]

Along the lines of the same subject.

http://espn.go.com/new-york/mlb/stor...ter-women-game

"I ask you guys to interview every one of my Latin teammates in this clubhouse right now and ask them," Teixeira said. "That's why it is funny because it is completely erroneous. That's a good word."

Yes, Erroneous is a good word lol

BOSTON -- Boston Red Sox reliever Vicente Padilla accused the New York Yankees' Mark Teixeira of prejudice against Latin players and also told the first baseman to go play a "women's game."

Teixeira laughed off the comments, calling them "completely erroneous."

"That's just comedy," Teixeira said prior to Sunday night's first half finale between the Yankees and Red Sox. "It's funny. It really is."

Padilla and Teixeira have had a feud that dates back seven years. In his initial two at-bats against Padilla in 2005, Teixeira hit homers each time. Since, according to Teixeira, Padilla has been head-hunting.

Following the homers, Teixeira had been hitless in eight at-bats, walked four times and had been hit three times before his go-ahead two-run, seventh inning triple in the Yankees' victory over the Red Sox Friday. Afterward, Teixeira said that Padilla has no friends in the game because of his head-hunting ways.

Teixeira relished the hit even more because when Padilla and Teixeira were teammates, Teixeira felt that he and Michael Young had to pay the price for Padilla's penchant for hitting batters. Padilla first fired back in an interview with NESN.com.

"In this sport, as competitive ball players, we get pretty fired up," Padilla said, according to NESN.com. "So I think, maybe, (Teixeira) picked the wrong profession. I think he'd be better off playing a women's sport."

Padilla then implied that Teixeira had issues with Padilla and former teammate Frank Francisco because they were Latin.

"The problem is he talks about all the wrong things that others have done, but the things he's done -- against the Latinos (on the Texas Rangers) -- he doesn't open his mouth about," Padilla told the website. "He once threatened me and said he was going to hit me with a bat, and that's when we were playing on the same team."

You can read the rest of the story by clicking the link. I bet there were not many people to hear about this. If the shoe were on the other foot and it was Teixeira saying it about a latin player I am betting everyone would hear about all it. Double standard.

Maybe the lifetime channel will talk about it.

[Squid Vicious]

Originally Posted by Erroneous

LOL very rarely do those two have anything of substance to add

Pot, kettle, etc...

[Bondgirl]

Okay l have to say what they did to the African Americans was terrible

I remember seeing docos about how a black person could not go into a cafe if it was white based

This would have been terrible to got hrough this plus even today the black man is targeted to a certtian exstent which sometimes is not fair

But l think the black man has more of a future than what they had before

The black man or black women can be edcated where beofore they were treated like rubblish

Look at the black acors who represent the african american by getting awards or starring in high budget movies

Of cause the black man fought to have rights and they won that war

[Bondgirl]

Originally Posted by Buck Turgidson

Us whiteys could adapt and improvise. Give us most any dark hued folks and we could oppress 'em damn near into oblivion.

Well in Afirca there were white people who took over farms and produced diffrent things

But the african men drove them off there propertys because they were white

The african black men could produce what the white man had put into palce so now the african is struggling because they have never been taught how to run a land

it is amzing how this thread is going and how we ahve reacted to it

In Australia 200 yrs ago the white man came to Australia by boat

They ended up meeting the aborigines who well you all nkow lived in the bush

They gave the black men sugar which rotted there teeth and also gave them alohol which they became addicted too

Also they raped the aborigine women and these women ended up having half white children

They took away the children and sent them to homes where the white person did terrible things to them

All l want to say is the black aborigine is still struggleing but they are better off than what they were before where the white man tried to kill them off

it is sad that we do these types of things but it happened and if you look now there is more freedom now than what the black africans and the aborigines di have then

[Shinigami]

Forgive me, but I'm scratching my head at this. Who is this comment directed towards?

The broad side of a barn. I was criticizing a 'what', so it doesn't have to be a 'who'. I'm not trying to be rude with your point or anything, but free speech doesn't have to be clean to remain free. Freedom as a concept isn't contingent on the cleanliness of clear-cut rules, it's contingent on the ambitions of those rules. This complexity is probably inherent. And that's to say nothing of our grave misunderstanding about our right to 'free speech', which doesn't actually give us the right to say whatever we want, wherever we want, in whatever way we please. I think some people are imagining slights against a law that might not exist.

And I also don't think giving certain words deference yanks the rug out from under free speech in the first place. I doubt people are being persecuted in the most serious and worthy sense of the word, and I expect any persecution they might respond with to the contrary - their word choice met with an uncomfortable silence, an insult, returned derision, or even something as extreme as job endangerment, rests on the free decisions of private people who have no expectation of upholding your free speech anymore than they are expected to uphold your other freedoms of expression (dress codes, social etiquette). I don't think any of it constitutes a lawful (or unlawful) persecution. We are arguing whether or not we think a word is rude or not, but it has little to do with the legality of expression and the freedom protected by that expression. It's a conversation about social manners. I feel people respond better to me when I have that focus, without labeling the conversation. That's the luxury of being a white guy in a controversy about perceptions in black culture. I'm not supposed to be the offended one, and it's alright that I don't have a cock in the quarrel.

I would be disappointed in somebody who couldn't censor themselves around my children and I would be disappointed in somebody who couldn't censor themselves around a public setting, regardless of the word. And I don't know if the conversation needs more gravity than that. The heavier the conversation gets the more complicated it becomes, and while I'm not confused as to why this is complicated, I'm out of reasons for why people drum free speech when even that simplification seems misdirected. The issue gets sensitive when corporations or public discourse adopt political viewpoints and start a large scale argument with loaded accusations, but smaller contexts are good reminders of where you stand, and honestly, if my neighbor asked me to take off my Atheist t-shirt because it offended him, I wouldn't wear my Atheist t-shirt around him. If a business cautions no shirt, no shoes, no service, I would give them my service only when wearing my shirt and shoes. There's no reason for me to be indignant. If I made people uncomfortable saying the n word I would try to stop saying the n word. I can empathize with other people's sensitivities even if I don't share them, and that's one of the reasons why I'm not a sociopath. I also got pretty teary-eyed while reading The Lovely Bones.

[Flimmaker1473]

Originally Posted by EBastard

I remember there being several, what's the one people are bitching about?



SHIVER ME TIMBERS...

SETH MCFARLANE DOES HAVE A TENDENCY TO GO OVERBOARD WITH THE JEWISH JOKES, IMO.

The one when Mark Wahlberg says to Joel McHale that he hopes that he dies of Lou Gerhig's disease.

And McFarlane does make way too many Jewish jokes.

[Flimmaker1473]

Originally Posted by Erroneous

Sorry man, but people care. I care. To quote Ed Norton in the 25th Hour "Slavery ended one hundred and thirty seven years ago. Move the fuck on!"



What makes this even funnier is that I read it after I wrote my last post. This is how black people think about white people. I am not saying it is not true.


Because I know many of you love this speech

Yeah, fuck you, too. Fuck *me*? Fuck *you*, Fuck you and this whole city and everyone in it. Fuck the panhandlers, grubbing for money, and smiling at me behind my back. Fuck the squeegee men dirtying up the clean windshield of my car - get a fucking job! Fuck the Sikhs and the Pakistanis bombing down the avenues in decrepit cabs, curry steaming out their pores stinking up my day. Terrorists in fucking training. SLOW THE FUCK DOWN! Fuck the Chelsea boys with their waxed chests and pumped-up biceps. Going down on each other in my parks and on my piers, jingling their dicks on my Channel 35. Fuck the Korean grocers with their pyramids of overpriced fruit and their tulips and roses wrapped in plastic. Ten years in the country, still no speaky English? Fuck the Russians in Brighton Beach. Mobster thugs sitting in cafés, sipping tea in little glasses, sugar cubes between their teeth. Wheelin' and dealin' and schemin'. Go back where you fucking came from! Fuck the black-hatted Chassidim, strolling up and down 47th street in their dirty gabardine with their dandruff. Selling South African apartheid diamonds! Fuck the Wall Street brokers. Self-styled masters of the universe. Michael Douglas, Gordon Gekko wannabe mother fuckers, figuring out new ways to rob hard working people blind. Send those Enron assholes to jail for FUCKING LIFE! You think Bush and Cheney didn't know about that shit? Give me a fucking break! Tyco! Worldcom! Fuck the Puerto Ricans. Twenty to a car, swelling up the welfare rolls, worst fuckin' parade in the city. And don't even get me started on the Dom-in-i-cans, 'cause they make the Puerto Ricans look good. Fuck the Bensonhurst Italians with their pomaded hair, their nylon warm-up suits, their St. Anthony medallions, swinging their Jason Giambi Louisville Slugger baseball bats, trying to audition for "The Sopranos." Fuck the Upper East Side wives with their Hermès scarves and their fifty-dollar Balducci artichokes. Overfed faces getting pulled and lifted and stretched, all taut and shiny. You're not fooling anybody, sweetheart! Fuck the uptown brothers. They never pass the ball, they don't want to play defense, they take five steps on every lay-up to the hoop. And then they want to turn around and blame everything on the white man. Slavery ended one hundred and thirty seven years ago. Move the fuck on! Fuck the corrupt cops with their anus-violating plungers and their 41 shots, standing behind a blue wall of silence. You betray our trust! Fuck the priests who put their hands down some innocent child's pants. Fuck the church that protects them, delivering us into evil. And while you're at it, fuck J.C.! He got off easy! A day on the cross, a weekend in hell, and all the hallelujahs of the legioned angels for eternity! Try seven years in fuckin' Otisville, J.! Fuck Osama Bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and backward-ass cave-dwelling fundamentalist assholes everywhere. On the names of innocent thousands murdered, I pray you spend the rest of eternity with your seventy-two whores roasting in a jet-fuel fire in hell. You towel-headed camel jockeys can kiss my royal Irish ass! Fuck Jacob Elinsky. Whining malcontent. Fuck Francis Xavier Slaughtery my best friend, judging me while he stares at my girlfriend's ass. Fuck Naturelle Riviera, I gave her my trust and she stabbed me in the back, sold me up the river, fucking bitch. Fuck my father with his endless grief, standing behind that bar sipping on club sodas, selling whisky to firemen, and cheering the Bronx Bombers. Fuck this whole city and everyone in it. From the row-houses of Astoria to the penthouses on Park Avenue, from the projects in the Bronx to the lofts in Soho. From the tenements in Alphabet City to the brownstones in Park Slope to the split-levels in Staten Island. Let an earthquake crumble it, let the fires rage, let it burn to fucking ash and then let the waters rise and submerge this whole rat-infested place.

The first line is from American History X. And you left how he realized his mistakes.

And as for the monologue from the 25th HourI love that movie. But you can't live off of a quote from it. The guy went to jail for goodness sakes! It seems to me that white people want the fact that one of this country's biggest sins (the other is how the Native Americans were treated) swept under the rug. That is not the case. Fact of the matter is when this country gained it's independence black people were working the fields and getting wiped.

[DaveyJoeG]

Originally Posted by Erroneous

Sorry man, but people care. I care. To quote Ed Norton in the 25th Hour "Slavery ended one hundred and thirty seven years ago. Move the fuck on!"

That was from American History X.

Originally Posted by Erroneous

Yeah, fuck you, too. Fuck *me*? Fuck *you*, Fuck you and this whole city and everyone in it. Fuck the panhandlers, grubbing for money, and smiling at me behind my back. Fuck the squeegee men dirtying up the clean windshield of my car - get a fucking job! Fuck the Sikhs and the Pakistanis bombing down the avenues in decrepit cabs, curry steaming out their pores stinking up my day. Terrorists in fucking training. SLOW THE FUCK DOWN! Fuck the Chelsea boys with their waxed chests and pumped-up biceps. Going down on each other in my parks and on my piers, jingling their dicks on my Channel 35. Fuck the Korean grocers with their pyramids of overpriced fruit and their tulips and roses wrapped in plastic. Ten years in the country, still no speaky English? Fuck the Russians in Brighton Beach. Mobster thugs sitting in cafés, sipping tea in little glasses, sugar cubes between their teeth. Wheelin' and dealin' and schemin'. Go back where you fucking came from! Fuck the black-hatted Chassidim, strolling up and down 47th street in their dirty gabardine with their dandruff. Selling South African apartheid diamonds! Fuck the Wall Street brokers. Self-styled masters of the universe. Michael Douglas, Gordon Gekko wannabe mother fuckers, figuring out new ways to rob hard working people blind. Send those Enron assholes to jail for FUCKING LIFE! You think Bush and Cheney didn't know about that shit? Give me a fucking break! Tyco! Worldcom! Fuck the Puerto Ricans. Twenty to a car, swelling up the welfare rolls, worst fuckin' parade in the city. And don't even get me started on the Dom-in-i-cans, 'cause they make the Puerto Ricans look good. Fuck the Bensonhurst Italians with their pomaded hair, their nylon warm-up suits, their St. Anthony medallions, swinging their Jason Giambi Louisville Slugger baseball bats, trying to audition for "The Sopranos." Fuck the Upper East Side wives with their Hermès scarves and their fifty-dollar Balducci artichokes. Overfed faces getting pulled and lifted and stretched, all taut and shiny. You're not fooling anybody, sweetheart! Fuck the uptown brothers. They never pass the ball, they don't want to play defense, they take five steps on every lay-up to the hoop. And then they want to turn around and blame everything on the white man. Slavery ended one hundred and thirty seven years ago. Move the fuck on! Fuck the corrupt cops with their anus-violating plungers and their 41 shots, standing behind a blue wall of silence. You betray our trust! Fuck the priests who put their hands down some innocent child's pants. Fuck the church that protects them, delivering us into evil. And while you're at it, fuck J.C.! He got off easy! A day on the cross, a weekend in hell, and all the hallelujahs of the legioned angels for eternity! Try seven years in fuckin' Otisville, J.! Fuck Osama Bin Laden, al-Qaeda, and backward-ass cave-dwelling fundamentalist assholes everywhere. On the names of innocent thousands murdered, I pray you spend the rest of eternity with your seventy-two whores roasting in a jet-fuel fire in hell. You towel-headed camel jockeys can kiss my royal Irish ass! Fuck Jacob Elinsky. Whining malcontent. Fuck Francis Xavier Slaughtery my best friend, judging me while he stares at my girlfriend's ass. Fuck Naturelle Riviera, I gave her my trust and she stabbed me in the back, sold me up the river, fucking bitch. Fuck my father with his endless grief, standing behind that bar sipping on club sodas, selling whisky to firemen, and cheering the Bronx Bombers. Fuck this whole city and everyone in it. From the row-houses of Astoria to the penthouses on Park Avenue, from the projects in the Bronx to the lofts in Soho. From the tenements in Alphabet City to the brownstones in Park Slope to the split-levels in Staten Island. Let an earthquake crumble it, let the fires rage, let it burn to fucking ash and then let the waters rise and submerge this whole rat-infested place.

You forgot the conclusion to that monologue, where Norton actually takes responsibility for his actions instead of turning his frustration into hatred towards others.

Originally Posted by Erroneous

LOL very rarely do those two have anything of substance to add

Nice. While we may not always agree, I was under the impression that we usually get along and had a mutual respect for each other. I can't recall being rude to you before.

Originally Posted by Shinigami

The broad side of a barn. I was criticizing a 'what', so it doesn't have to be a 'who'. I'm not trying to be rude with your point or anything, but free speech doesn't have to be clean to remain free. Freedom as a concept isn't contingent on the cleanliness of clear-cut rules, it's contingent on the ambitions of those rules. This complexity is probably inherent. And that's to say nothing of our grave misunderstanding about our right to 'free speech', which doesn't actually give us the right to say whatever we want, wherever we want, in whatever way we please. I think some people are imagining slights against a law that might not exist.

I understand that there are caveats to our freedom of speech. I understand that freedom of speech does not equal freedom from criticism of your speech. In hindsight, I think frustration was too strong of a word to use. It's more of an observation. I didn't come here to defend or condemn what Chris Rock said. I'm simply guessing that some of the folks who are upset about what he said may have been on the defensive themselves at some point for things they've said. What may be a sensitive topic to them, may not be for others.

I kind of feel like you're going out of your way to give these hypothetical people the benefit of the doubt, while assuming that I want to pretend things are black-and-white when it comes to freedom of speech. I guess I shouldn't have brought it up, because my point revolved more around what offends people, whether it's racial slurs or talking shit about America, and how they react to that offense. I think everybody would do well to just chill out instead of getting angry.

I really don't disagree with anything you wrote in your response, although your second and third paragraphs are going into topics that I haven't touched upon in this thread. While you say you want to focus this point on a what instead of a who, your comment was a sarcastic response to one of my posts; and I'll admit that my brief post was lacking in nuance, but I'd appreciate it if you were a bit more upfront with any issues you have with what I've said. Chances are, I won't completely disagree with what you have to say, and my perspective may evolve thanks to the wisdom of those I respect. Instead you kind of implied that I am frustrated by complexities, and while I'm sure it was tongue-in-cheek, I think it's a bit unfair to assume that about me. Our dialogue could have been so much more enlightening, but instead I was left wondering if I had just been made the butt of a joke. It's okay though, it's all good. I just said that a lot of people get offended too easily, and I don't mean to be one of them.

My brevity can sometimes be my downfall, and I fear it may have muddied my point a bit in this thread. I'm not trying to just pull the "freedom of speech card" and side with Chris Rock, I simply think people may champion the freedom of speech thing when they are on the defensive, and forget about it when an outsider says something that truly offends them.

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Erroneous

LOL very rarely do those two have anything of substance to add

It's quite rare either of them doesn't have something of substance to add.

And now I feel dumb because I thought Shini's comment had nothing to do with DaveyJoe and my "burn" remark was a joke about that.

Originally Posted by Erroneous

and as for the other stuff you said, being offended and so offended are different things. What I said does not mean that everyone gets a free pass with whatever they say. I and other are allowed to be offended. Plus, I am not as offended with what he said. I do not like that he can say it and get away with it without hearing tons of shit like white people do. I do not like double standards. Hmm. Double standards.......... a lot of that somewhere else too.

So your subjective read of someone else saying they were offended was that they were more offended than you admit to being by these comments, since obviously you're not being hypocritical. Seems pretty flimsy to me.

I also think your "porch monkey" comment was a reference to Clerks 2 but your comment about the epithet was, in context and based on other comments in thread, sincere and a serious reflection of your annoyance that white people can get flack for using the term.

Otherwise I hear ya brother, when will black comedians finally cut the white man a break? They can make controversial jokes and all we get is this lousy world to run.

[Shinigami]

I really don't disagree with anything you wrote in your response, although your second and third paragraphs are going into topics that I haven't touched upon in this thread. While you say you want to focus this point on a what instead of a who, your comment was a sarcastic response to one of my posts; and I'll admit that my brief post was lacking in nuance, but I'd appreciate it if you were a bit more upfront with any issues you have with what I've said.

I really was replying to the broad side of a barn. Nuance is an easy jab for a conversation that lends itself to oversimplification. I would normally quote someone if I was replying to them exclusively. It was conversational flotsam.

I responded to you after the fact because it seemed you and quentin thought I was responding to you, and my creator programmed me to be suggestible. I also thought quentin complimented me, and I don't have the mettle to go against a compliment.

And now I feel dumb because I thought Shini's comment had nothing to do with DaveyJoe and my "burn" remark was a joke about that.

Oh for the love of pete

[DaveyJoeG]

Well now I'm really confused, and that just frustrates me.

[Erroneous]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

The first line is from American History X. And you left how he realized his mistakes.

And as for the monologue from the 25th HourI love that movie. But you can't live off of a quote from it. The guy went to jail for goodness sakes! It seems to me that white people want the fact that one of this country's biggest sins (the other is how the Native Americans were treated) swept under the rug. That is not the case. Fact of the matter is when this country gained it's independence black people were working the fields and getting wiped.

???? I quoted the whole speech and in that speech was the line. It was from the 25th Hour. You have your movies wrong. You missed or ignored the whole point.



What Ed said

We're so hung up on this notion that we have some obligation to help the struggling black man, you know. Cut him some slack until he can overcome these historical injustices. It's crap. I mean, Christ, Lincoln freed the slaves, like, what? 130 years ago. How long does it take to get your act together?

What the kid brother said at the end. It was not Ed Norton.

So I guess this is where I tell you what I learned - my conclusion, right? Well, my conclusion is: Hate is baggage. Life's too short to be pissed off all the time. It's just not worth it. Derek says it's always good to end a paper with a quote. He says someone else has already said it best. So if you can't top it, steal from them and go out strong. So I picked a guy I thought you'd like. 'We are not enemies, but friends. We must not be enemies. Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection. The mystic chords of memory will swell when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature.'

Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG

That was from American History X.




You forgot the conclusion to that monologue, where Norton actually takes responsibility for his actions instead of turning his frustration into hatred towards others.

.

See above. And you have been rude many times before. Not just me, but you make comments like that to others.

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

It's quite rare either of them doesn't have something of substance to add.

And now I feel dumb because I thought Shini's comment had nothing to do with DaveyJoe and my "burn" remark was a joke about that.



So your subjective read of someone else saying they were offended was that they were more offended than you admit to being by these comments, since obviously you're not being hypocritical. Seems pretty flimsy to me.

I also think your "porch monkey" comment was a reference to Clerks 2 but your comment about the epithet was, in context and based on other comments in thread, sincere and a serious reflection of your annoyance that white people can get flack for using the term.

Otherwise I hear ya brother, when will black comedians finally cut the white man a break? They can make controversial jokes and all we get is this lousy world to run.

There are several people who usually have very good comments, but also make very short comments or add pictures that do nothing to help the thread and just attempt to insult people. You tell me how this quote is not insulting and helps the thread "I am also frustrated by nuance" It does not and there are several people who do this crap all the time. Why not clean up this stuff?

Originally Posted by Squid Vicious

Pot, kettle, etc...

Thanks for another great post and on point too. I guess this is part of that substance Quentin spoke about

[Bourne101]

The similar slavery lines are in both films, but that's beside the point. Trust me, Erroneous, quoting lines from 25th Hour or American History X while making arguments is a path you do not want to go down. I did it once when I was an over-privileged 16 year old shit head living in a rural area where the black population was maybe 20. Looking back on it, it's one of my biggest regrets. In the case of 25th Hour, you left out the most important line in the monologue when Norton comes to the conclusion that he's really just pissed at himself. In the case of American History X, the line is stated shortly after his father has been killed by a black man and his hatred and misguided notions of race consume him and make him become a murderous skinhead. You're leaving out the part where he goes to jail, gets raped, realizes that his notions of black people were entirely off base, tries to get his brother out of the skinhead gang, and talks about how he's tired of being consumed by hate.

[Flimmaker1473]

Originally Posted by Bourne101

The similar slavery lines are in both films, but that's beside the point. Trust me, Erroneous, quoting lines from 25th Hour or American History X while making arguments is a path you do not want to go down. I did it once when I was an over-privileged 16 year old shit head living in a rural area where the black population was maybe 20. Looking back on it, it's one of my biggest regrets. In the case of 25th Hour, you left out the most important line in the monologue when Norton comes to the conclusion that he's really just pissed at himself. In the case of American History X, the line is stated shortly after his father has been killed by a black man and his hatred and misguided notions of race consume him and make him become a murderous skinhead. You're leaving out the part where he goes to jail, gets raped, realizes that his notions of black people were entirely off base, tries to get his brother out of the skinhead gang, and talks about how he's tired of being consumed by hate.

He or she is just seeing what they want to see in those monologues. No offense to anyone but White people don't really have the right to get offended or something racial. Hell there is still racism today. Not really that bad but it is out there.

[Flimmaker1473]

Originally Posted by Erroneous

???? I quoted the whole speech and in that speech was the line. It was from the 25th Hour. You have your movies wrong. You missed or ignored the whole point.

No you quoted a line from American History X and then the monologue from the 25th Hour. You don't even know the movies that you quoted.

Stop quoting lines that you don't know where they are from or even what they mean. You failed to bring up that both times Edwad Norton's characters realized that they were either wrong or just pissed off at himself.

[Shinigami]

There are several people who usually have very good comments, but also make very short comments or add pictures that do nothing to help the thread and just attempt to insult people. You tell me how this quote is not insulting and helps the thread "I am also frustrated by nuance" It does not and there are several people who do this crap all the time. Why not clean up this stuff?

There's room for pointed non-sequential non sequitors nicking ne'er-do-wells nattering about the n-word. It's not like my comment derailed anything, confused anybody, preoccupied anyone's contributions to the conversation or generally ran amok in any way. Or rather, it's not not like my comment did that. Two nots make a knot, wrong?

Actually, I'm going to acknowledge this. It's a bummer the tone of my post may have rubbed some posters the wrong way. I understand why people read insults behind sarcasm, potshots or other posting 'attitudes', but I don't have a mean spirit in this discussion and my attitudes are uniformly playful. Because I still feel I have a legitimate criticism for an amount of this conversation, I'll acknowledge what you're saying and make a more substantial effort by addressing various comments that don't acknowledge complications - historical ones, generational ones, cultural ones.

They helped win their own freedom in that war and the Civil War.

When I criticize issues of nuance I'm not necessarily criticizing the bottom line. I'm criticizing the simplification where it doesn't acknowledge the more complicated realities. The emancipation promised to blacks in the revolutionary war - promised by our budding country and britain alike, were not followed through to a man. After the fact of stateside victory numerous branches of the armed forces ruled that blacks were no longer allowed to be enlisted, and sometimes not even allowed to be recruited. I think there were still arguments at the time over arming blacks - even during the civil war. Most of the documented recruits were used for basic labor as a result. There's also the matter of the disproportionate number of black soldiers lost during the civil war, although I don't know enough about the history to say for certain if the casualties were the result of intentions or favoritism among union whites. Regardless, I can acknowledge the division these wars have in modern day black culture. The discrepancies are there and it's enough to warrant some suspicions, even if those suspicions feel disrespectful. Black soldiers were paid less, charged more, and although they fought for their freedom, "freedom" is not a simple victory won in war. They did not demonstrably win their freedom in these wars. The correlation isn't there, and these victories did not cause freedom for blacks and black culture in America.

Just to suggest that the 4th of July is just a white people holiday is just wrong. If the shoe were on the other foot that person would be killed in the press for it. I hope he has huge problems with this and is forced of apologize.

I still want to stress I'm not criticizing your point for hypocrisy, but I'm criticizing its simplicity. White public relations are different than black public relations; as different as male public relations and female public relations. These differences depend on the way they relate to the public - sports figures differing from political figures differing from comedians. It's unlikely I'm telling you something you don't already know, but it's something you're not acknowledging in the criticism. Sometimes the differences are large and hypocritical, but sometimes the differences exist as a counterweight to the actual institutionalized differences between cultures, races, religions or genders in our country (not to mention the simple acknowledgement in the differences of populations). In many acknowledged ways black culture has a different relationship with this country than white culture, and that difference is owed some particulars. When people want equality they should be talking about those rights that ought to be blind to culture, gender, background, and so on. Rights like freedom and opportunity. When people are talking about the equality of social discourse, on the other hand, it seems they would do well to remember and respect the differences in the participants.

We need to decide if we want to embrace freedom of speech or just give it up entirely. It doesn't allow for the privilege of picking and choosing what we think is appropriate to say.

Already noted^

Postmaster General made clear points about the difference between black history month and the fourth of july in response to Jaw's comment comparing them. Jaw compared them by looking at them strictly as labeled calendar days, while the General specified the differences between black history month and the celebratory fourth of july. Which goes back to acknowledging the nuances - noting the discrepancies, and understanding why they are there to begin with (before you even begin to agree or disagree). Filmmaker1473 said no black fought for his freedom in the revolutionary war, and erroneous replied with an article not just noting the ambition blacks had to fight for their freedom, but also the difficulties in obtaining that freedom - likely the very thing Filmmaker was talking about. And if Filmmaker was wrong in some cases, he's not wrong in others. It's very unlikely, if not obviously untrue, all blacks were fighting for, and therefore causing in the subsequent victory, their freedom. Because victory in the Civil War did not give blacks their freedom in this country. Slavery in the previous sense was abolished, but a whole host of subsequent developments rejiggered cultural inequality. Slavery pre-civil war was just a law. Freedom is more than a law.

The 4th of July is an American holiday. It is not a white peoples or black peoples or latin holiday.

This is neglecting the history of American holidays having some institutionalized prejudices inherent in our older history. July 4th is an American holiday, but that does not mean it has relevance for all Americans. It's symbolic. Some people respond to the symbolism and some people acknowledge the more complicated reality that subverts this symbolism. Americans used to (still do?) celebrate Christopher Columbus as the man who symbolically discovered this country, although strictly speaking, he didn't actually discover this country. This is the discrepancy between patriotic symbolism and reality. There are some holidays I personally celebrate symbolically, like Christmas, and I celebrate it even while acknowledging its roots as a holiday and my personal conflict with the beliefs of those roots.

...and one post later:

I am also frustrated by nuance.

Because why not.

[Squid Vicious]

Originally Posted by Erroneous

???? I quoted the whole speech and in that speech was the line. It was from the 25th Hour. You have your movies wrong. You missed or ignored the whole point.



What Ed said

You are approvingly quoting a neo-Nazi. A fictional neo-Nazi, but a neo-Nazi nonetheless.

Just thought I'd let you know.

[Bourne101]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

No you quoted a line from American History X and then the monologue from the 25th Hour. You don't even know the movies that you quoted.

Stop quoting lines that you don't know where they are from or even what they mean. You failed to bring up that both times Edwad Norton's characters realized that they were either wrong or just pissed off at himself.

The first line he quoted is actually from 25th Hour, from the monologue. It's very similar to a line in American History X.

[Flimmaker1473]

Well I guess that line is from the 25th hour.

Either way it is foolish to quote that and try to make it seem like it is good grounds to say to stop talking about slavery. He only went on that rant because he was mad that he was going to jail.

Like I said, white people don't have the right to be racially offended. Not that is really happens outside of America or Canada anyway. It doesn't changes the years of oppression that African Americans were faced with in this country.

[Bourne101]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

Either way it is foolish to quote that and try to make it seem like it is good grounds to say to stop talking about slavery.

No doubt.

[DaveyJoeG]

Originally Posted by Erroneous

See above. And you have been rude many times before. Not just me, but you make comments like that to others.

I stand corrected, there was a similar line in both movies. As for being rude, I don't ever recall intentionally trying to insult you. If I ever said anything that offended you, I'm truly sorry. All I know is that in my 10 years of posting on these forums, I've never been contacted by a mod for disrespectful behavior.

[DRbeauty]

It was less than 50 years ago that black people were being lynched and sprayed by water hoses, and only three months ago that an unarmed black teenager was shot to death in my hometown.Now the shooting itself may or may not have been racially motivated, but the lack of proper police investigation was not. It won't be the first or the last time that happens here in the South. Sometimes a little perspective is appropriate.

[DRbeauty]

Secondly, do Germans ever complain that Jews won't let the Holocaust go ? Probably not

[Bondgirl]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

The first line is from American History X. And you left how he realized his mistakes.

And as for the monologue from the 25th HourI love that movie. But you can't live off of a quote from it. The guy went to jail for goodness sakes! It seems to me that white people want the fact that one of this country's biggest sins (the other is how the Native Americans were treated) swept under the rug. That is not the case. Fact of the matter is when this country gained it's independence black people were working the fields and getting wiped.

Umm l have to commnet that maybe we should look at what one has now compaired to looking at the past problems

I feel that this thread will become blacks onto whites where we should not be going this way
This forum is a great palce to go and l have met some wonderful people from America and all over the palce and l just wish we could get off this subject or someone will get upset

[Bondgirl]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

Well I guess that line is from the 25th hour.

Either way it is foolish to quote that and try to make it seem like it is good grounds to say to stop talking about slavery. He only went on that rant because he was mad that he was going to jail.

Like I said, white people don't have the right to be racially offended. Not that is really happens outside of America or Canada anyway. It doesn't changes the years of oppression that African Americans were faced with in this country.

of cause it doesnt change what happened years ago but you and other african Americans need to look at the future instead of talking about what happened in the past

It is not only the black americans who suffered through things

Look at the jewish people and look at what ahppened tot them in World War 2 and how they were treated and killed for being Jewish


look at the Middleeast at the moment on how people there are fighting each other and when you get rid of one dictator he is replaced with another
Look at the Aborigines and gow they were treated
I could go on and on about waht is happening in some palces and people are getting killed or there children watching there parents get shot or worse

I think we need to look at what we have now instead of going back in history all the time blaming one person or another it wont change what happened

[Bondgirl]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

He or she is just seeing what they want to see in those monologues. No offense to anyone but White people don't really have the right to get offended or something racial. Hell there is still racism today. Not really that bad but it is out there.

I think anyone can be affended black white ect it depends on what area or person you are looking at

So you dont think that racism is bad well maybe you need to take a trip to some certain countrys and see for yourself how bad it is

I can tell you we have it in Australia and sometimes itcan be bad to a certain exstent when these buggers get into gangs

[magjournal]

Originally Posted by Flimmaker1473

No offense but who cares if a white person is insulted? After years of obsession and slavery I think what he said was just fine.

I forgot that all white people are the same. I have no right to be offended because I owned slaves myself.

[Bondgirl]

Well not all white people are the same
White people can be from diferent countrys umm france germany australia ect

We count count all areas which have a white population and l would say there would be a few

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by magjournal

I forgot that all white people are the same. I have no right to be offended because I owned slaves myself.

With the exception of the Irish and some Italians, most white people don't have a history of being physically or institutionally discriminated against in this country. There's a historical basis for most kinds of harmful language or stereotypes. This doesn't really exist for white people.

This is what Chris Rock is getting at. Our ancestors had completely different experiences from one another. The idea that there's some singular "American Experience" is a complete falsehood. This is a country of immigrants, and when in history has there ever been an immigrant experience that was a totally smooth and seamless transition?

[MightyCelestial]

Coincidently, I saw an episode of Sylvester & Tweety called "Tweeting Twouble".
And Chris did rock in it.

[Flimmaker1473]

Originally Posted by magjournal

I forgot that all white people are the same. I have no right to be offended because I owned slaves myself.

White people don't have a history of being oppressed and enslaved. That is what I am getting at. America has always catered to white people first.