#441  
Old 07-21-2012, 10:58 PM
Thank God some people watched this with their blinders off. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy people enjoyed a movie they were so looking forward to but I was starting to think I had seen a cut of the film no one else did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverload View Post
I walked into this movie with a group of people already calling this the greatest movie ever, and they all walked out claiming their minds were blown by the greatness of this movie.

I personally felt like it was a mess. Catwoman was a throw away character. Alfred ran away for lame reasons for most of the film. The final fight was weak. Certain revelations were just rehashed from Batman Begins. Bane went down way too easy. The editing was wonky at times (and I'm not talking about action scenes). Plus, Batman never really did much. In fact John Blake does most everything for him. This felt like a John Blake movie featuring Bruce Wayne with an appearance by Batman.

To me, this is Indiana Jones and The Kingdom of the Crystal skull all over again. It's not horrible, but it certainly doesn't come close to its predecessors.

By far the worst Nolan Film.

5/10
Quote:
Originally Posted by DorkisFig View Post
I have so many problems with this movie it makes me sick. It had so much potential and it was so disappointing. This movie was filled with plot holes and problems and here are just a dozen or so that I had a problem with (some may be repeats of what has already been said so sorry about that)

Spoiler:

1.No one cares about Harvey Dent anymore. Gordon types up a statement telling everyone the truth about Harvey Dent and when he doesn't read it at the ceremony, he just decides to keep it in his jacket pocket at all times in case the leader of the underground revolution happens to kidnap him. Oh, and Bane's big announcement about Dent's true colors comes after he's blown the stadium to hell and taken control of the city aka who cares? He doesn't need to convince anyone else that he's in charge. Does he really need a moral reason to let the prisoners out? No, he didn't. The Dent story in this film was so unnecessary. Also, the ONLY backlash that Gordon faces after being exposed as a lying cop who covered up a dozen murders is a soft spoken lecture from John Blake about filthy hands. Twenty minutes later Gordon is leading the other cops into battle and they have no problem with it. Please.

2. The love stories in this movie are a joke and an insult to the Nolan franchise. At least the audience connected with Rachel in the first two films - enough for us to care about her death and understand its impact on Wayne / Batman / Dent. Let's review the love interests for this movie A) Wayne ignores the business partnership with Tate, goes broke, allows her to take over his family's company (including the WMD he has in his basement), shares a rainy Saturday with her, looks at a picture of his dead girlfriend and then they have sex. You're right, I'm totally supposed to have an emotional, "how could you!" moment when Talia stabs Batman later. He didn't even know her real name until after the knife is in his side but that's the love interest that he was going to try and save? B) Catwoman steals Wayne's mother's pearls, threatens him, steals his car, tricks him (Batman - Bane identifies Batman as Wayne immediately and Catwoman is watching so we know that she knows who he is) into getting beaten near to death by Bane, realizes that she's been a stupid selfish twat the whole time and then teams up with him later and we're supposed to believe that they run off to Italy and live happily ever after after that? Spare me

3. How does Bane get the broken Bruce Wayne to the prison in the well? He just booked a flight on American Airlines to the Gothan desert right out the city limits. It's desert conditions outside of the well and then cuts to snowy winter of Gotham so don't even dare try to say that the prison is just outside the city limits. Also, since it's pretty clear that it's not exactly next to Gotham, does Wayne just make a cross country trip by foot back into Gotham? Also, if they're not letting anyone in or out of the city (as the bridge scene with JGL clearly hammered home), how does Wayne get back in? Also, I'm sure Batman wasn't too concerned with the whole "24 hours til the bomb goes off" scenario because he clearly had time to make an over-the-top-I-just-finished-watching-Zorro flaming bat symbol on the bridge instead of taking care of business like he should have.

4. Bane clearly kicks the living daylights out of Batman in the sewers, breaking his back and everything. So it makes perfect sense then that Bane would leave Wayne in a prison with some water, saltine crackers, some pseudo-philosophical medicine men, and a pull-up bar and in just a few short months, Wayne is powerful enough to return to Gotham and totally beat Bane to a pulp. Right. Perfect sense.

5. There is absolutely no emotion in this film. Just because Alfred is crying or getting tears in his eyes does not mean that the scene is powerful. Gordon is shot and almost drowns but doesn't. Alfred throws in the necessary plot detail that Rachel wasn't that into Bruce who then throws a tantrum and throws Alfred out of the MOVIE, not just the house. Fox is held at gunpoint and nothing happens. All Nolan did was give the audience emotional blue balls the entire movie, acting that the idea that someone could have died is the same thing as someone really dying. If they weren't going to use Alfred during the last 90 minutes, they should have had Bane kill Alfred to break Batman's spirit because THAT would have been incredibly gut wrenching

6. The action of this movie is awful. The first fight scene was great because we saw just how much Batman could not do against Bane but upon return to Gotham, Batman punches Bane and breaks his mask (which totally makes sense since not once did Batman punch Bane in the face during their first fight). But their final fight is overshadowed by the force-fed reveal of Talia and then we finish with Batman flying around shooting the tumblers and . . . yep, that's it. The action highlight of the first hour is when Batman jumps a tow truck and escapes the cop which is what Nicolas Cage does in the finale of Gone in 60 Seconds. Way to go Nolan.

7. The entire plot of the mercenary, his baby momma, the kid, the protector, etc, etc, etc. sucks. Who cares? We get it. The League of Shadows hates Gotham but you don't have to contrive some intricate back story to explain why Bane is the monster that he is and why Talia has to avenge whoever she has to avenge and how Bane and Talia are working together. Batman Begins explained Scarecrow and Ra's Al Ghul's relationship with one sentence and that was all we needed. It was so unnecessary and worthless and if it weren't in the movie, it would not have made the movie any worse. I was so bored with this by the time the credits rolled.

8. Bane's army, equipped with semi-automatic weapons, decides that instead of using those weapons against a group of cops that just spent months underground sharing rations of food and water, they'll just get into a giant fist fight. Right . . .

9. John Blake was the greatest mystery going into this film. Who is he really? The next villain? The next Batman? Nobody? Rather than use this to his advantage, Nolan immediately removes all doubt in Blake and Wayne's first interaction. You remember the conversation, "Hey I just met you. And this is crazy. But you've got that look in your eye, you're Batman maybe? Seriously though, a ten year old orphan sees a certain look in the eye of an eccentric billionaire and just says, "that must be the Batman" By saying that he knows who the Batman is, we know that he's on Batman's side and that he's not a villain so that was great to get that out of the way in the first 30 minutes and it totally made his INCREDIBLY shocking reveal at the end totally blow my mind because I never would have seen that coming.

10. Alfred pretty much tells the audience the ending when he's trying to explain to Bruce what the PERFECT ENDING TO HIS STORY would be. I surprised he didn't turn to the camera and wink after saying, "that's what I want for you"


Perhaps my greatest disappointment comes from Nolan's lack of original storytelling and plot devices in this movie

Spoiler:

1. That fact that he so adamantly stated that his story would come full circle was nothing more than a spoiler that Al Ghul would return meaning a)someone was going to try and destroy Gotham and b)Cotillard was Al Ghul all along. Every forum on Earth figured that out the day that Cotillard was cast in the movie and when everybody knows, that's not original or cool. Then, Nolan had the balls to act like his reveal was a shock to anyone just because he added a high pitched note to the music.

2. In all 3 films, we've been exposed to a main, primary villain for 90 percent of the movie only to have them be replaced by a secondary villain to end the movie. Batman Begins gives us the Scarecrow and his toxin for most of the film until Ra's Al Ghul returns and gets his 15 minutes of screen time villainy in before the credits roll. Even The Dark Knight's iconic Joker didn't get the last laugh as Harvey Dent had to have some rant on justice and equality for everyone! Then Bane (as if he wasn't underused to begin with) is knocked over by Catwoman only to be replaced by Talia who couldn't even steer the truck or kill Morgan Freeman. It's the same ending in every single movie!

3. Ticking time bomb scenario. Give me a freaking break! Nolan should have been better than to use this cop out to finish his trilogy. It's nothing more than a contrived lot device to keep the audience on the edge of their seats for the finale.

4. The whole, "hero sacrifices himself for everyone only to 1)fake his own death or 2)escape miraculously (because EVERY ACTION MOVIE ever doesn't do that). It's all been done before, over and over and over again and I expected more from Nolan especially since the whole, "fake your own death" thing was already done by Gordon in TDK. Just saying.

5. The DARK Knight trilogy has a Nickelodeon, happily ever after ending. The DARK, GRITTY, DEPRESSING superhero trilogy has a happy, everyone wins and nobody dies, ending. Nolan should take notes from Whedon.

6. Deus ex Machina. Oh my freaking gosh Catwoman this almost made me walk out.

7. Speaking of taking notes from Whedon, Nolan totally did. Avengers also featured the main plot device to be an energy source that turned into a weapon of mass destruction, had a not so powerful character (Blake/Capt. America) inspire the eccentric billionaire to become the true hero that he was meant to be, featured a broken hero(es) rising up, hammered home some Deus ex Machina (Catwoman/Hulk)and made us all believe the hero that we love so much was willing to die so the rest of us could live.

I'm not saying that he stole their script, my argument is just that Avengers was good for what is was but I expected so much more from Nolan and this film. It should have been so much better than what it was. It seemed to be scared to take any risks!


This is just my opinion. Don't bite my head off. If you liked it, I respect your opinion and I don't think any less of you. Just sharing my thoughts

5/10
Those reviews hit it right from what I saw. I think this movie does a lot wrong.

5/10

TDKR offers nothing new in any way, shape or form. Itís a poorly paced yet atrociously edited convoluted mess thatís caught in no manís land. It actually takes itself too seriously yet offers ridiculous attempts at character development and, sad to say, awful action sequences if they can even be called that at all. It wants to be taken seriously like the tone that TDK managed to deliver but functions in bizarre surroundings with a foolish plot. This movie simply canít stand on its own as a film and it doesnít want to.

Will the fondness for the past two films mask the terrible failure that hits the screen here? Or, is it the momentum from those films makes this one's coast to the finish good enough?
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  #442  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph View Post
Thank God some people watched this with their blinders off. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy people enjoyed a movie they were so looking forward to but I was starting to think I had seen a cut of the film no one else did.





Those reviews hit it right from what I saw. I think this movie does a lot wrong.

5/10

TDKR offers nothing new in any way, shape or form. Itís a poorly paced yet atrociously edited convoluted mess thatís caught in no manís land. It actually takes itself too seriously yet offers ridiculous attempts at character development and, sad to say, awful action sequences if they can even be called that at all. It wants to be taken seriously like the tone that TDK managed to deliver but functions in bizarre surroundings with a foolish plot. This movie simply canít stand on its own as a film and it doesnít want to.

Will the fondness for the past two films mask the terrible failure that hits the screen here? Or, is it the momentum from those films makes this one's coast to the finish good enough?
Because it's part of a trilogy, the entire point is to build off of what BB and TDK accomplished in the first place. Sort of like how Return of the Jedi would be a huge failure on its own, so who gives a shit. I didn't watch this with blinders on either, I just loved the shit out of it because Nolan did everything I thought he could with the Batman character. Plus, the plot worked fully for me, and I didn't think the plot was foolish at all.
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  #443  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murph View Post
Thank God some people watched this with their blinders off. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy people enjoyed a movie they were so looking forward to but I was starting to think I had seen a cut of the film no one else did.
Come on man, just because people enjoyed the movie that means that they saw the film with blinders on? Your opinion is just that, an opinion. Just because you found the film to be underwhelming doesn't mean that the film is underwhelming in an objective sense.
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  #444  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:16 PM
Terrific movie 9/10

Spoiler:
I have zero interest in seeing JGL as Nightwing in a spin off. He did a fine job, but that was a perfect ending.



Michael Caine must find amusement in the fact that all he has to do is get a little weepy in a film for 20 seconds and people think he deserves an awards for it.

Spoiler:
How could seeing Bruce at the cafe in the end not turn him into a blubbering mess? He took it pretty well for thinking he was dead.


As for Bane.
Spoiler:
I wanted to see that mask get busted off his face and him just be completely crippled with pain before Talia puts it back together.
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  #445  
Old 07-21-2012, 11:42 PM
I might be forgetting BB and DK, but

Quote:
TDKR offers nothing new in any way, shape or form.
Spoiler:
Objectively, a lot of the movie is new. And my response is going to be silly because that's a silly comment without more elaboration, since we both know you meant something more than what I'm about to respond to. I'm just trying to coax you into explaining yourself. Given, Batman in retirement, Alfred leaving his side, introducing a competent vigilante foil like Kyle, combating a fellow exile from the League of Shadows, reintroducing past movie plot lines to tie and wrap up, shutting down gotham into a civil war, threatening the city with a nuclear device, escalating the scope into a nation-wide catastrophe, introducing this version of class warfare along with a physical adversary who can stand toe to toe with batman and take him down, "the bat", Wayne's decision to abandon the symbol of batman not just for the good of the city, but himself as well (allowing himself to detach from the symbol and live the rest of his life apart from it), introducing a fellow gotham-ite like Robin who is rising to Batman's occasion in an elementally similar but differently detailed Dent journey, setting a larger perspective of the run time in the police force... These are just some of the new elements never before seen in Nolan's Bat trilogy. They are not interpreted. They are plain. And they are on top of elaborated elements of the trilogy, such as the aspect of tired rebellion from the system into the batman mythos - Robin, who was built as a similar character of similar mindset, decides he can no longer handle working within the system, and as a cap on previous plot lines about Catwoman's frustration with her background the elaboration can be inferred.

Maybe these elements didn't come together? Maybe they weren't executed right? I'm not knocking the critique, I just want to hear more out of you about it.
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  #446  
Old 07-22-2012, 01:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by intheDirectionoftheMoon View Post
It pretty much ruined the movie for me, and I'm shocked more people don't feel the same.


Spoiler:
I wouldn't be surprised if Nolan wanted to end the movie with Wayne dying and either DC or WB stepped in and said you can't do that. It just felt like they shoe horned BW and Selina in the end to appease the masses. Your typical Hollywood ending of "hero performs a heroic stunt where there is no way he could have survived, but of course he does because we don't want to upset people."

And I'm not one of those guys who hates happy endings. I just want an apprpopiate ending. And with the tone of the overall trilogy, and the realism that Nolan strived for, I think having Wayne sacrifice himself to save the city he loves, while also have the Batman legend live on with Blake taking up the mantle would have been the most appropriate ending. What a POWERFUL and MEMORABLE emotional punch that would have left. But no, we get the "oh and btw BW escaped and lived happily ever after."

I cannot begin to explain how disappointed I was leaving the theater. I thought Nolan was the one director who would have the balls to kill off BW, but apparently he doesn't and he went for the safe cookie cutter ending.
Spoiler:
Yep, for some brief fleeting moments, a couple of seconds maybe i was floored that someone would have the cajones to kill off the main freakin' hero in a film such as this, it's never been done ( or has it ? ) and would have been bolder than jumping into shark infested waters wearing chum .

I was hoping that's what was going to happen, praying, not because i would have enjoyed it but it's what he was prepared to do, in a narrative sense it's what should have transpired, all his actions througout the trilogy hinted at his willingness to make the ultimate sacrifice. He already sacrificed his reputation, his freedom, any hope of a normal life, for the benefit of others, now it was time to take that last step.

It was even foreshadowed in what he said to Kyle when she said he had already given them ( the people of Gotham ) everything. He responded by telling her, no, not everything, not yet . That led me to believe he knew he was going to have to give them his life in order to save them .


Didn't happen . I'm not blasting the film because of that but wowzer, that would have been simply one of the best endings to a trilogy in the history of cinema
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  #447  
Old 07-22-2012, 03:02 AM
Whenever a film becomes divisive people start throwing out the pejoratives and making personal attacks towards each other. Nobody saw this film with blinders on. Nobody took it easy on the film. People saw and evaluated the film as they saw fit. Each person is a unique, individual beast. Sometimes it can be quite difficult to try to comprehend the opinions of others when they are so different from our own. But this is human nature, and this is how things have always worked.

I'm sure everybody already knows exactly what I am talking about and I must commend this forum in particular for generally maintaining more civility than many others on the net, but these big, hyped up movies always get to the worst of people.

One man's trash is another man's treasure, after all. The worst is an ad hominem attack. We cannot judge people based solely on their taste, and we cannot all of a sudden say someone loses their validity as a critic because they liked some stupid B movie but hated the big Oscary epic that everyone is loving. Each situation and each film is completely different and unrelated to each other. Let us just all take the time to remember that if we hated something, and somebody else loved it (or vice versa) there is nothing "wrong" with them, they just have a different opinion. And at the end of the day, our opinions on films hardly make up any sort of significant contribution to our quality as a human being. It is how we behave and engage with others regarding those opinions that matters.

I'm sorry for my tangential diatribe.
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  #448  
Old 07-22-2012, 03:21 AM
I know I keep rambling about the Christ metaphor, but...

Thomas Wayne = The Father
Bruce Wayne = The Son
Batman = The Holy Ghost

Batman Begins = Life of Christ
The Dark Knight = Death of Christ
Dark Knight Rises = Resurrection

League of Shadows = Satan/Evil

What was the quote Ra's Al Ghul gave in TDKR about being able to take many different forms?

Obviously I've fleshed out more to it than this, but if anyone is willing to lend me a hand in taking the analysis to task, hit me up in private message, or just respond here. I understand if no one sees this, or thinks I am digging for something that's not there. On the flip side, maybe I'm just pointing out something obvious that doesn't need discussion. This was just an aspect I walked away with from the movie and thought was really intriguing because I think Nolan really took this slant with the character.

And just to note, I'm not a "religious fanatic" or anything, but just found a lot of parallels happening and was curious if anyone else is seeing this, or, again, if I'm being dim and it's really in your face (a la The Matrix) There were some very seemingly obvious parts, like Blake dropping to his knees, in a prayer like position before the return of Bats.

Either way, I'm planning to see it in IMAX this weekend, sans kid with a small bladder, so I'm hoping to catch much more. As it stands, I still feel this is a more solid film than The Dark Knight. Mainly, I'm excited to rewatch the whole trilogy at home this winter. But for now...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin View Post
Something about the love scene that I didn't realize until my sister just pointed it out:

Spoiler:
The point of it was apparently to reveal Miranda as Talia right there, if you're astute enough. My sister realized it. Her scar (which she called a "mistake from her childhood" or something) was a removed League of Shadows tattoo. Can't believe I missed that.
Spoiler:
And I was trying to figure out the scar and overlooked it. They even reference the tattoo during the film at some point, I think showing it on Bane's back. Awesome on your sister. This was one of my favorite insights into the movie in this thread so far.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin View Post
Also, regarding Blake:

Spoiler:


He's obviously not a pre-existing Robin, but he could be a hybrid of Robin and Azrael, who took over for Batman temporarily when Batman injured his back. A lot of characters in these recent comic book movies seem to be hybrids.

Right, and I think that's where Nolan really succeeds as a filmmaker. I think he's been given too much credit for sticking close to the source, when I think his real talent is adapting it into a film. He captures the beloved tone of character, the darkness, but he doesn't go for the sprawling nature of the comic world like the Marvel movies do. Those are very much comic book movies, but I think his Batmans are more film-atic. One way he does this is by condensing many of the character motivations into cinematic characters. He gives movie goers someone to hate, someone to root for and doesn't just go, "Hey, then there's this guy."

It's hard for me to explain, but I guess everyone knows what I mean.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin View Post
As for the ending:

Spoiler:


Enough about it not being "dark" enough. This trilogy had more than enough dark moments to go around. Bruce's past, losing Rachel, being completely spiritually broken, destroying his relationship with Alfred, being responsible for hundreds, if not thousands, of lives lost because of his arrogance (it was his arsenal that Bane was using, after all)... come on. The guy deserves some happiness when all of this is said and done.

Agreed. And it was dark as hell, really. That was my complaint, that it was too dark so...

Spoiler:
the ending felt tonally out of place for me. I mean, it felt right in the entire scope of the films, just not in this one. The movie kept getting darker and darker, until the last section of the 3rd act, then all of a sudden it's sunny. Maybe I'll appreciate it more (I mean, I liked it a lot now) when I see it again, but I think it was kind of paced oddly in that aspect and I think that's where detractors are feeling it. It really was a happy ending, but for a movie that seemed to be screaming that everything was going to hell.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
Spoiler:

The only reason anybody guessed Marion was Talia was because of set pictures taking during filming. Nobody knew unless they were already following the production of the film. There is absolutely no evidence that Marion is Talia while watching the film. She seems to be on the straight and narrow for the entire duration until the reveal at the end.

However, I don't disagree that things might have been more interesting if her reveal came earlier in the film, but Nolan does love his plot twists, and I stand by my claim that the scene of her stabbing Bruce while Bane chokes him with the rope is extremely effective and hard to watch.
That was my take, because I wasn't following any pre-production at all. Like I said earlier, I wondered, but just let myself go with the movie. That right there is the reason I avoid upcoming for the most part. I will swear up and down that being stone(d) cold seeing a movie is the only way to do it. I've only seen 2 teasers and a full length trailer for The Master and am already kicking myself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
Nolan and crew are completely done with this franchise, it's been said multiple times. There won't be a Batman 4 or a Robin spin-off. Nolan gave Bruce Wayne closure while allowing for the Dark Knight to live on and inspire hope in the people of Gotham. This theme has been present since the opening scene of Batman Begins when Ras tells him the he must elevate his status into being more than just a man, but a legend. Bruce Wayne only wanted to give up Batman because he wanted to be with Rachel and she admits in TDK that he can never do that. That's why she chose Harvey over Bruce.

It wasn't until the events of TDKR that Bruce learned to move on and let himself have a happy life. And he couldn't have done that without Blake being willing to take up the mantle. It was pretty well done as Blake had his own arc about learning the futility of fighting corruption within the confines of a corrupt system.
Yeah, but Nolan and crew have lied about other things.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinigami View Post
Spoiler:
Batman later showed up on the ice, didn't he? Maybe Bale walked across the ice like the badass motherfucker who trained with Liam.
That's the scene I want to see!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinigami View Post
Spoiler:
I just wanted to quote he clearly had time to make an over-the-top-I-just-finished-watching-Zorro flaming bat symbol on the bridge instead of taking care of business because that's awesome. I could go on about the importance of the batman's symbol, but it's standard superhero heroics.
I thought that line was funny too, but ultimately agree with your assessment. He's trying to instill fear in his enemies and hope in the people he's protecting. It was a perfect moment for me.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinigami View Post
Spoiler:
Yeah, I didn't like the tome bomb either. I didn't mind I countdown - didn't even notice in the heat of the movie, but I didn't like the nuclear threat and the final scene of batman flying the bomb off to sea. That disappointed me. It was merciless logic on the part of the writers, since a nuclear threat is well and logical for a mercenary like bane, but I wish he would have shown more mercy to the tone of the film and the appropriate scale. I'm not the end-all-be-all measure of what should or shouldn't be in a batman movie, but the nuclear threat disappointed me with its impersonal spectacle.
I didn't mind when it was just a theoretical countdown, but when they actually showed a timer, I didn't like that so much. It was cooler when they were being all scientific about half-lives and what-not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinigami View Post
Beyond that, I haven't been reading much praise for Bane's prison. One of my favorite sub plots in the movie. It was a solid set piece with curious substance and an interesting locale full of interesting accents. I liked the small scale of the triumph and I liked the therapy it gave Bale's Wayne. His exotic journeys in the first act of Batman Begins were my favorite parts of the movie, mixing in the legitimacy of foreign affairs and arduous travel with the comic book mysticism already prevalent in the mythology of an iconic character like batman. One of the best things about Nolan's trilogy is his ability to introduce concepts about heroism accessible to all sorts of audiences at all sorts of ages. The writers don't elaborate these concepts into ponderously complicated depths, shooing off the young'uns, but there are enough demonstrations of competing ideologies that none of the concepts in these movies feels disposable. Sometimes they might be simplistic, but iconography is always simplistic. It's the nature of the icon. And it's such a balancing act to portray an icon without being pulled down by its limitations. The Nolan team has done such a good job with this stuff.
For me, that kind of stuff is a reason I want to rewatch the movie. It was really well done. That was one scene in particular I didn't get to enjoy because of bringing my son along. I know a lot of people groan at me towing along a kid, and (god forbid) having to use the bathroom, but my son has a great track record. He's seen lots of 2 1/2 hour movies, not once getting up for the bathroom, but this time around, I don't know if it was a summer time issue with hydration or maybe something else, I had to get up multiple times. I felt bad for fellow patrons, but ultimately, I was the one missing scenes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dellamorte dellamore View Post
Spoiler:
Yep, for some brief fleeting moments, a couple of seconds maybe i was floored that someone would have the cajones to kill off the main freakin' hero in a film such as this, it's never been done ( or has it ? ) and would have been bolder than jumping into shark infested waters wearing chum .
The did it in The Matrix, and it didn't make for a better film.

Last edited by The Postmaster General; 07-22-2012 at 03:27 AM..
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  #449  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
I know I keep rambling about the Christ metaphor, but...

Thomas Wayne = The Father
Bruce Wayne = The Son
Batman = The Holy Ghost

Batman Begins = Life of Christ
The Dark Knight = Death of Christ
Dark Knight Rises = Resurrection

League of Shadows = Satan/Evil

What was the quote Ra's Al Ghul gave in TDKR about being able to take many different forms?

Obviously I've fleshed out more to it than this, but if anyone is willing to lend me a hand in taking the analysis to task, hit me up in private message, or just respond here. I understand if no one sees this, or thinks I am digging for something that's not there. On the flip side, maybe I'm just pointing out something obvious that doesn't need discussion. This was just an aspect I walked away with from the movie and thought was really intriguing because I think Nolan really took this slant with the character.

And just to note, I'm not a "religious fanatic" or anything, but just found a lot of parallels happening and was curious if anyone else is seeing this, or, again, if I'm being dim and it's really in your face (a la The Matrix) There were some very seemingly obvious parts, like Blake dropping to his knees, in a prayer like position before the return of Bats.
I see more parallels with Buddhism than I do with Christianity.
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  #450  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:17 AM
I loved it..Saw the trilogy at AMC and thought that Nolan did an awesome job at bringing his one word themed Batman movies (Fear,Chaos,and Pain) to an end
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  #451  
Old 07-22-2012, 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jig Saw 123 View Post
I see more parallels with Buddhism than I do with Christianity.
I'd like to see your elaboration on this, though I can see some but not as many as you seem to be.
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  #452  
Old 07-22-2012, 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preston_79 View Post
Terrific movie 9/10

Spoiler:
I have zero interest in seeing JGL as Nightwing in a spin off. He did a fine job, but that was a perfect ending.



Michael Caine must find amusement in the fact that all he has to do is get a little weepy in a film for 20 seconds and people think he deserves an awards for it.

Spoiler:
How could seeing Bruce at the cafe in the end not turn him into a blubbering mess? He took it pretty well for thinking he was dead.

EXACTLY. It made for a great little Nolan-y ending, but it was also totally illogical. Bruce is like his son, and Alfred Bruce's father. A wink and a nod and that's it. No way.

I still wish they hadnt revealed the identity of the man in the cafe at the end. GOSH that would have been so fucking epic
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  #453  
Old 07-22-2012, 11:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpikeDurden View Post
Whenever a film becomes divisive people start throwing out the pejoratives and making personal attacks towards each other. Nobody saw this film with blinders on. Nobody took it easy on the film. People saw and evaluated the film as they saw fit. Each person is a unique, individual beast. Sometimes it can be quite difficult to try to comprehend the opinions of others when they are so different from our own. But this is human nature, and this is how things have always worked.

I'm sure everybody already knows exactly what I am talking about and I must commend this forum in particular for generally maintaining more civility than many others on the net, but these big, hyped up movies always get to the worst of people.

One man's trash is another man's treasure, after all. The worst is an ad hominem attack. We cannot judge people based solely on their taste, and we cannot all of a sudden say someone loses their validity as a critic because they liked some stupid B movie but hated the big Oscary epic that everyone is loving. Each situation and each film is completely different and unrelated to each other. Let us just all take the time to remember that if we hated something, and somebody else loved it (or vice versa) there is nothing "wrong" with them, they just have a different opinion. And at the end of the day, our opinions on films hardly make up any sort of significant contribution to our quality as a human being. It is how we behave and engage with others regarding those opinions that matters.

I'm sorry for my tangential diatribe.
No, there are two different cuts of the movie floating around. Some of us are lucky enough to see the good version, while others got shafted with the awful version.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
Spoiler:
And I was trying to figure out the scar and overlooked it. They even reference the tattoo during the film at some point, I think showing it on Bane's back. Awesome on your sister. This was one of my favorite insights into the movie in this thread so far.
Spoiler:
I'm struggling to remember any reference to a League of Shadows tattoo. I remember wondering if the scar would have any significance later, but I don't recall them bringing it up again. However I couldn't help but think of the scar when Talia stabbed Batman, how that would add another scar to Bruce's collection.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
Yeah, but Nolan and crew have lied about other things.
That's true, and believe me when I say I wouldn't mind seeing Nolan make a new Batman movie every 2 years, but I do believe him when he says he's done. Also that comment was in response to a pseudo-criticism of the ending because of a follow up film that may or may not(probably not) happen.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
That's the scene I want to see!
There is a lot about the story that I think could have been fleshed out. There have been complaints about the run time, and I agree, but not that the film should have been trimmed, that would have made it even more disjointed. No, if anything the film needs to be longer. Nolan was obviously going for a very grandiose style of film, like the epics of David Lean. Personally I think this movie would benefit from the deliberate pace of a film like Lawrence of Arabia rather than the hyper-kinetic pacing of The Dark Knight.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
I thought that line was funny too, but ultimately agree with your assessment. He's trying to instill fear in his enemies and hope in the people he's protecting. It was a perfect moment for me.
Yep, this really worked for me too. It's a visual representation of the symbol Bruce has been trying to build up for the entire trilogy. It was also pretty cool to see something they've used in the marketing take place in the actual film. I remember waiting to see a similar image in The Dark Knight because of its prominence on the poster.

But yeah, Batman can't inspire people on his own just by beating up thugs, there has to be some type of show for the people to see. Like during the final battle, Batman didn't necessarily have to be in the front lines fighting with the cops, but his appearance in the Bat at just the right moment to take out one of the Tumbler cannon's was enough to inspire the cops to rush into a melee fight against armed mercenaries.



Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
For me, that kind of stuff is a reason I want to rewatch the movie. It was really well done.
The prison scene was cool, I didn't feel like it dragged at all. I feel like a lot of criticisms are a bit inconsistent. I'm seeing stuff like "the 2nd act really dragged" followed by "and how the hell did Bruce recover from his injuries in the prison so quickly??" It's one of those things where Nolan has a lot of story to tell, but he's trying not to take too much of our time in doing so. Ultimately, he may have been better off going with one extreme over the other. But scenes like this really reminded me of some of the classic epics we just don't see anymore. It's as if Jean-Pierre Melville directed a David Lean film.


Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
The did it in The Matrix, and it didn't make for a better film.
Agreed, I don't see how Bruce Wayne's death makes for the perfect ending for this trilogy. It can all be traced back to dialogue in the first film. The entire point of making The Batman is because one man can be killed, and that won't inspire anybody. It's the symbol that inspires people. Bruce Wayne's death wouldn't have helped anything, but Batman's sacrifice in the eyes of the people is a powerful sentiment.

Alfred explained that Bruce's hope for martyrdom doesn't come from a sense of saving Gotham, but an escape from Bruce's life of guilt, grief, and anger. The thing about Bruce learning to fear death in prison is really important for his arc, and why he can't have the strength to do any good if he's so willing to sacrifice himself. What's the point of going through all of that trouble to make a symbol if you're just going to throw away your life anyway? Wayne's death wouldn't add anything but shock value, and would undermine all of his growth during the trilogy.

Last edited by DaveyJoeG; 07-22-2012 at 12:15 PM..
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  #454  
Old 07-22-2012, 12:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
I'd like to see your elaboration on this, though I can see some but not as many as you seem to be.
I would write an entire analysis, but for lack of finding the words to do so, I'll just provide links that--somewhat--back up my initial claim.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=12,1349,0,0,1,0



http://www.sequart.org/magazine/9132...me-a-buddhist/
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  #455  
Old 07-22-2012, 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
Spoiler:
I'm struggling to remember any reference to a League of Shadows tattoo. I remember wondering if the scar would have any significance later, but I don't recall them bringing it up again. However I couldn't help but think of the scar when Talia stabbed Batman, how that would add another scar to Bruce's collection.
If I'm remembering correctly, and I may not be - another reason I want to see the movie again - It was almost immediately afterÖ

Spoiler:
They mention Bane is part of the League. It's a follow shot and you see the tattoo on his back. It seems like it was the investment center scene, after he takes his jacket off, but it may have been at some point in the prison. I remember the scene because it seemed interconnected, them mentioning him being part of the league, then the tattoo. I can't say for certain how it unfolded, or, hell, really if it even did.



Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
That's true, and believe me when I say I wouldn't mind seeing Nolan make a new Batman movie every 2 years, but I do believe him when he says he's done. Also that comment was in response to a pseudo-criticism of the ending because of a follow up film that may or may not(probably not) happen.
Nah, I agree that it is ultra unlikely. I was just riffing on the wool he's pulled over our eyes thus far, especially since it was tied in with the current discussion.


Quote:
There is a lot about the story that I think could have been fleshed out. There have been complaints about the run time, and I agree, but not that the film should have been trimmed, that would have made it even more disjointed. No, if anything the film needs to be longer. Nolan was obviously going for a very grandiose style of film, like the epics of David Lean. Personally I think this movie would benefit from the deliberate pace of a film like Lawrence of Arabia rather than the hyper-kinetic pacing of The Dark Knight.
Agreed. I really hope that there is an extended cut, not just of this movie, but how cool would it be for the entire trilogy. He hasn't had one for any of the previous, so it seems unlikely that this might have one, which kind of makes me hopeful that it's going to be an expansion on the entire trilogy.

Christmas is going to be fun for a lot of schmoes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jig Saw 123 View Post
I would write an entire analysis, but for lack of finding the words to do so, I'll just provide links that--somewhat--back up my initial claim.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=12,1349,0,0,1,0



http://www.sequart.org/magazine/9132...me-a-buddhist/

I'm not asking you to back up what you are saying, just asking for some discussion on the connections I made, which I think are pretty solid and straight forward. If there are other religious connections, I'd love to see it as a whole. The buddhism connections were very pronounced in the first movie. Hell, I mean we can just start that discussion with them training in the monastery in the Himalayans.

The thing is that seeing this movie, I drew a parallel to the entire trilogy. Then I showed were I started seeing these parallels, which seem pretty blatant to me. You didn't really disagree with me, but seemingly just dismissed what I said, citing that there were more Buddhist parallels. Then when I asked you to add something to the dialogue, you cite articles written based off information written from 4 years ago (although the most recent article is 2012, it was written before Rises) And the articles don't even touch on the Buddhist elements I already saw, for example, reincarnation - they both touch on one single theme: compassion. That's not really a buddhist-centric theme, though. So basically where I gave multiple parallels, you gave one, one loose one to backup "sort of" that there are less of the parallels I've pointed out.

I'm not trying to argue that the movie has Christ-figure parallels, but just pointing at the ones I saw after seeing the completed trilogy. I didn't see this after the first movie or the second but when seeing it all as a whole.

There are both Christian and Buddhist overtones, I'm positive that both are there, but I'm really just trying to get a dialogue going, not say that it's one or the other. I don't feel much help in that respect when being referenced to some articles that just say they are Buddhist parallels because of one thing, then being told that you could offer more analysis, but just won't, because hey look at these articles.

I think it's much more interesting to talk about things that haven't been discussed. I haven't seen anyone making these parallels that I made here and offered up that I could be digging too deep or could be pointing at something totally obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the latter. Nolan's films are pretty rich in a lot of respects in terms of psychology, but I think there are also some religious aspects and I'm cool if no one wants to talk about it, but I have Google so I mean I can research what I want, but, again, I think I prefer going to discussion forums more than link dumps for a reason.

I'm more interested in hearing what you have based on your own insights, than hearing about what you read. That's all, man.
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  #456  
Old 07-22-2012, 12:46 PM
I'm just glad we didn't get a shot of Bruce being crowd-surfed by the people, with his arms spread out like a cross. I think that symbolism is there, but with the excitement of just seeing the film, I'm a bit too focused on the trees to step back and look at the forest. Although I must admit I might have continued to go to church if Jesus had a hovercraft.

Last edited by DaveyJoeG; 07-22-2012 at 12:48 PM..
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  #457  
Old 07-22-2012, 12:49 PM
SPOILERS, even tho everyone should've about seen it by now
and here.....we.....go.

ayone thinking Nolan's new film DKR is anywhere close to the other two batmans in his trilogy, didnt realize what made his first two films special.

BB's and TDK'S ability to show realism in a fantastic extraordinary fantasy cityscape of mobs, thugs, citizens, cops, a united city closing in on itself through the tyranny of forces of evil such as Rhas Al Ghul, Joker, and even Scarecrow. Its about how, not just batman, but the city, is in just as much pain and suffering as Bruce. It felt as if Batmans sense of peace could only be obtained through the peace of Gotham.

What the Dark Knight Rises does, is showcase multiple chracters, plot devices, action elements, and, sadly, superhero cliches into a mixed bag that only taps the surface of what each scene could've done narrative wise, emotional wise, and even visual wise. Even when the film looks to be heading in a great direction, there is something STILL missing from this third batman. I know what everyones question is

Is it Bane not matching up to Joker?
Not at all, Bane proves to be an intimidating and threatening force for Batman. There are a few lines of dialogue that I found hard to understand. About 3/4 of his sentences came out clearly each scene. But his prescense is fantastic until the last third of the film, where all that has been built up for the character is simply pushed aside for the reveal of a really, really, tacked on plot twist.

What is missing is actually quite a few things
1. Gotham's personality- When Bane overtakes Gotham, he occupies the city for 95 days. We get no sense of this longevity in the film, therefore getting no sense of the paranoia surrounding the citizens of an entire island. No sense of an eniter city of people being locked in with itself with Bane, a ruthless dictator ruling them and controlling the masses of the ENTIRE city. Have you seen how big Nolan's Gotham is? How does Bne have enough men to control what is supposedly a city 4 times the size of new york. We NEVER get the sense of Bane's massive army overtaking every square inch of the city. Gotham is nothing but a surrounding for fist fights. Dammit Nolan.

2.Besides Bane, does anyone else have a personality?- Nolans characters in DKR are simple shadows of what they could've been. Bruce Wayne is givin sufficient screen time, but his arc is so awkward. After 8 years, he's crippled, runs into catwoman, then says f off to alfred, then puts the suit right back on. Even if he's gone 8 yrs without training, strength wise or combat wise. Hey, he should be good. Also, Alfred's role in the film? Uh....cry to bruce, cry more to bruce, cry at the end at Bruce's grave(awful scene btw) and thats it. Poor alf doesnt do squat. Catwoman? Her entrance was brilliant, but who else noticed slowly but surely throughout the runtime, Selina just, dissapears. She comes in and out of scenes so randomly, also randomly just appearing in her suit one scene, and being dressed normal another scene. ridiculous. Marion Coltiard? her character may be the biggest joke in the entire film. Not only does she have a 2 min 15 sec love scene with Bruce, she had maybe 8 more min of screentime in the whole 3 hr affair. And then she's relied upon for the third act reveal of her being the real bad guy? Instead of Bane? What? Or JGL as "Robin", doing his best in ACT 3 by driving a bus of orphans around. That's it. He seemed charismatic as a Comish Gordon 2.0, but he didnt, do, squat. Even Batman has scenes mostly concerning him not doing anything substantial. He rides around at night chasing banes bikers, escapes the cops with an extremely convenient highway jump after not even catching the bikers. Then what? He gets beat up by Bane, climbs out of the prison, fights bane one more time, only to be stabbed. But he's good, don't worry, he still will proceed to fly around shooting tumblers with his bat plane. He then does ONE thing substantial, flying the bomb to the ocean. The only event in the film Batman actually has the chance to have an effect on the plot. Bats simply didnt do enough in his own damn movie. Also, Matthew Modine and the rest of the terribly mediocre cast of Gotham's officials move on screen like stick figures, especially in the first act. They had no impact whatsoever on anything in the movie, including Gordon.
I have to move on...

3. The Awkward Editing/Dialogue- the plane prologue's dialogue is a mess. characters talking back and forth left and right, with terrible camera angles and no sense of whose talking to who. The awkward step into Wayne's life after 8 years is too forced. It's not relaxed in any frame in the film. Wayne appears strangely off key, and his dialogue with Alfred is too heavy handed and blunt. Nothing sincere, nothing that felt real.There were some cheesy ass monologues as well, which almost every character had a chance to lay out their big dramatic speech. Did anyone also feel that scenes were edited very strangely, along with scenes ending very awkwardly. The flow of the first hour, is pretty inconsistent. How the film tries to switch back and forth between all its characters is simply confusing. Did anyone even know Marion Coltiard's characters name? Poorly presented dialogue and questionable cuts from scene to scene.

4.The classic "2nd act overshadowing the 3rd."- it happened in TDK, and it now happens in TDKR. In TDK, Nolan killed his climax by having the truck chase/joker interrogation 25 min stretch of the film be the strongest part of it, making the last hour almost futile in terms of topping itself with something more spectacular, it's a mere waste of time. The boats/building fight with Joker is nothing compared to that genius half hour. In Rises, the 2nd act involves Bane facing batman, breaking his back, sending him to prison to watch his city burn while he cant do anything about it. That's some cool shit. Does the rushed city hall fight and tumbler chase at the end even come close to topping its second act? No.

5. Classic Plot holes from Nolan- There are enough holes to drive a truck through the movie. here we go, Wayne's miraculous healing by doing push ups and sit ups, his "walk" from India to entering the closed off isle of Gotham, Gordon being healthy enough to do, whatever he does in the movie after going through a shitstorm in the first half. Marion Coltiard just waiting in the court house for bane to be kicked through the glass, batman being deeply stabbed an extremely long length, bane's mask? tell us what it does for him!, how do the cops who have been in the sewer for months not have beards, dirty clothes, not the slightest even psychologically impaired from it, catwoman convienently can drive bats bike as good as batman can, batman takes the time to set a flair on the ice to light it on fire to show a symbol on the bridge which of course Bane can see where he's from, bruce becomes broke in the movie, eliminating all his resources to do what he wants in the movie, so how does he bring the bat plane into the city to have parked in the alleyway just chilling there, waiting for him to be chased there to make his exit in it. This stuff is too conventional for nolans trilogy. the other two films have nowhere close this dependency on conventionality. It's too bad.

That "ending"- Something that belongs on the lifetime channel. lets view alfred crying at bruce's grave, fast forward who the fuck knows how many years to the predictable table sequence of alfred and bruce seeing eachother but not saying anything. How does Alfred not completely break down after thinking for so long bruce has been dead? come the fuck on.

I could type even more out about this movie's blatant laziness but I wont.

Last edited by MovieMan50; 07-22-2012 at 01:03 PM..
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  #458  
Old 07-22-2012, 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
I'm just glad we didn't get a shot of Bruce being crowd-surfed by the people, with his arms spread out like a cross. I think that symbolism is there, but with the excitement of just seeing the film, I'm a bit too focused on the trees to step back and look at the forest. Although I must admit I might have continued to go to church if Jesus had a hovercraft.
Ha!

I'm waiting for the deleted scene with him walking on water to get back to Gotham.

What aboutÖ

Spoiler:
A flood to destroy life on Earth (Gotham)
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  #459  
Old 07-22-2012, 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
Ha!

I'm waiting for the deleted scene with him walking on water to get back to Gotham.

What aboutÖ

Spoiler:
A flood to destroy life on Earth (Gotham)
Absolutely, in all seriousness, I'd like to see more of that stuff on the ice, it's obvious that something was cut from that sequence. An extended trilogy cut would be great, but I think TDKR needs it the most.

Spoiler:
Talia used a flood to destroy the reactor and prevent the bomb from being disarmed.
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  #460  
Old 07-22-2012, 01:19 PM
How many deleted scenes were there from the previous two Nolan Batmans? Did any of them add to the story. The last part of TDK felt disjointed to me.

Have there been instances before where there were scenes no one knew about that came out after the fact? I guess Lucas did that, sort of, but I mean in terms of filling in blanks.
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  #461  
Old 07-22-2012, 01:39 PM
I'm sure The Dark Knight Rises is at least a damn good movie, maybe even a REALLY damn good movie. I'm seeing it again this afternoon to nail down my thoughts. But I thought it had a lot of plotting issues, and just felt... unwieldy I think is the word. Pace was a bit erratic, characters all over the place, logic gaps. It's the first time I would call a Nolan film "unwieldy", but I think it certainly lacks the polish of his best work, including The Dark Knight.

However, still lots I liked. Bane was sweet I thought, totally formidable and Hardy did a great job. How many noticed how different his voice was in the opening plane scene from when the prologue ran with MI4 back in December? Clearly they did a lot of ADR work. Oddly I almost found it TOO clear in the opening scene this time as compared to when I saw the prologue months ago. Also, one spoilery thing I will comment on right now...

Spoiler:
I hear a lot of complaints over how Catwoman killed Bane. I get where they are coming from but I don't really agree that it was a cheap way to kill him off. Sure it was fast, even completely abrupt, but that was the point. We expect a big typical final showdown with the big villain I guess and this goes against expectation... so should we really be surprised that Nolan went this way? It was a surprise, a bit of a shocking moment and I even yelled "whoa" or something. The other bad guy death I might compare it to is Phillip Seymour Hoffman's in Mission Impossible 3 when he just gets quickly mowed down by a passing car in a scuffle with Tom Cruise. Also not what is expected, but I LOVED that death scene as well. Anyway, I don't think the abrupt nature of it cheapened it or made Bane's exit any less satisfying.
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  #462  
Old 07-22-2012, 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMan50 View Post
ayone thinking Nolan's new film DKR is anywhere close to the other two batmans in his trilogy, didnt realize what made his first two films special.
Who are you to decide what other people found special about the two previous installments? Too many people are assuming their opinion = fact in this thread.

From those that arent and have been capable of stating your opinion and respecting others' as well - great discussions. Ive enjoyed reading several of your takes (often contradictory to my own, even). I feel that with subsequent viewings, I will enjoy this entry more and more (as I did with TDK before it). As it stands, it is my favorite in the trilogy. An extended cut would be amazing! That was my thought as well, but Im not expecting one and therefore not getting my hopes up.
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  #463  
Old 07-22-2012, 02:12 PM
Spoilers
Rises is a very good but not great movie. Dark Knight was great, one of my favorites of all time. It had flaws but there were so many geek boner inducing scenes with Two-Face and especially the Joker that I barely noticed them. Not even during my seventh theater viewing (tied w/Burtonís first as my record) did those flaws bother me. Rises just didnít have enough of those crazy-good, burn a hole in my brain scenes to cover up the many flaws it had. Now donít get me wrong, the bat-breaking scene rivaled anything in TDK. The dialog was perfect. Bane was a beast. I loved how he toyed with batman before finally breaking him. But his other scenes were all too underwhelming and sometimes not even all that logical. His intro for instance doesnít make sense because there is no way any investigation would conclude that the plane just accidentally crashed.
ďWhatís the verdict Bob?Ē
ďLooks like the wings just fell off here and then a mile down that way the tail fell off and two miles later it fell straight down out of the sky Steve.Ē
ďAnd all the bullet holes?Ē
ďThey probably just panicked and started firing.Ē
ďOk so pilot error then, case closed.Ē
You can nitpick the Jokers plans too but he wouldnít have cared if they failed. Heíd just find another way to fuck with people. Like when the boats donít blow up, oh well heíll just do it himself. These villains were supposed to be smart and had one very specific plan although that was very confusing too. Why wait 5 months to blow up the bomb? Teaching a lesson to people you are going to nuke anyway while giving someone 5 months to thwart it doesnít seem too smart. Youíd have to be pretty damn confident that every cop in Gotham would go into the sewers at the exact right time too. Seemed very flimsy to me.
I loved and respect how Nolan went for a grand end-of-Gotham epic to end his Trilogy but was disappointed with his execution. He is still a genius and I will be there on opening day for every movie he makes but to me he slipped up a bit here. Not just in his story telling either, twice this movie had major continuity issues. When Bane hits the stock exchange he rides out on his bike during the middle of the day then all of a sudden itís the dead of night. And again at the end itís dark as shit, Batman says the bomb will go off in 45 minutes and then all of a sudden itís bright as hell. Some will say thatís a nitpick but it was too noticeable for me to agree. Totally different than a guy smoking a cigarette to the nub then all of a sudden itís a full one kind of error.
Very interested to see if JGL takes over as Batman and hope for that rather than a reboot. Too many good villains left that would kill in the Gotham Nolan created and too many great directors that could carry the torch.
As Batman movies go:
#1 The Dark Knight
#2 Batman (Burtonís)
#3 Batman Begins
#4 The Dark Knight Rises
#5 Batman Returns
The rest are shit.
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  #464  
Old 07-22-2012, 02:25 PM
Fact= u sound like a hypocrite calling out my opinion and replacing it with yours, just seems useless.

This was an important movie. Whether u discard the hype or not. Nolan couldve done anything he couldve dreamed to cap off his fantastic run through batman. I even lowered my expectations for it and i still was vastly underwhelmed. Maybe it was due to me viewing it as its own movie, like the other two, instead of a mere continuation of it. A 7/10 i feel doesnt justify nolans time and effort put into this, but sadly, its really his fault with the films problems. Its good, not even close to great, which i find unbelievable some 10/10 ratings on here.

I respect every opinion like i do my
Own, but i sometimes still question the specific concrete reasons why someone feels a film deserves a 10/10 perfect rating when there are multiple easily viewable flaws to all of us, even if u know a little bit about film, the most important thing about reviewing movies is obtaining no bias before viewing it, like "wanting to love it" so much that you do love it no matter what the film is.
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  #465  
Old 07-22-2012, 02:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gomer Pile View Post
Spoilers

...twice this movie had major continuity issues. When Bane hits the stock exchange he rides out on his bike during the middle of the day then all of a sudden it’s the dead of night. And again at the end it’s dark as shit, Batman says the bomb will go off in 45 minutes and then all of a sudden it’s bright as hell.
I hadnt noticed the first error until you mention it here - now I fully remember the scene and youre correct. It is mid day at the stock exchange, and theres only 8 minutes on the timer - cut to the chase which takes place in the dead of night and concludes as the timer runs out.

However, the final scenes all take place in day light if my memory serves. It is extremely overcast but at no time is it night. I will have to watch for that upon future viewings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MovieMan50 View Post
Fact= u sound like a hypocrite calling out my opinion and replacing it with yours, just seems useless..
I didnt call out your opinion. In fact, quite the contrary. What I "called out" so to speak - was your assumption that your opinion was fact. What made Begins and TDK special to you might not be the same for everyone else; so to say others didnt realize what made them special just seemed extremely arrogant and illogical to me.

Furthermore, I dont think anyone (10/10 rating in their opinion or otherwise) in this thread is saying the movie was without flaws. Nor was I.

Last edited by Inglorious; 07-22-2012 at 02:32 PM..
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  #466  
Old 07-22-2012, 02:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post

I'm more interested in hearing what you have based on your own insights, than hearing about what you read. That's all, man.
I understand, dude. So I'll do my best to formulate my stance on the subject.

Batman Begins, like you mentioned, was notably drenched in Buddhist symbolism. Bruce is a young 'prince of Gotham' who is given everything his heart desires until the lost of his parents forces him to experience pain and, later on, anger. This reflects Buddha's lost of his mother, though during childbirth, is forced to be raised, singlehandedly by his father (similar to Alfred raising Bruce). Both Buddha's father and Alfred try to protect their son from the 'evils' of the world--Buddha's dad being a little more extreme. Eventually, Bruce Wayne leaves Gotham to start a new path or to experience the feeling of living through desperation (similar to Buddha leaving his wife and child to seek the path of enlightenment). Bruce adapts a high level of theatricality in order to become a symbol--extreme to even Ras Al Ghul. Buddha, in the beginning of his path to seek Nirvana, starves himself to feel the small things we take for granted. Itís up to ourselves is an idea Buddhism maintains that it is not up to others to make us meditate or study, or in Bruce's case fight injustice and save Gotham. We are responsible for creating our own suffering, and it is solely up to us to create the circumstances for our release (his release is becoming Batman). It requires personal wisdom and commitment. Bruce also follows the five precepts underlined in Buddhism. 1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures. 2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given. 3. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech. 4. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct. (which was broken in The Dark Knight Rises ) 5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. Bruce seeks to end the suffering within by eliminating the catalyst (corruption).And of course, the Four Noble Truths are obviously seen throughout the successors after BB.

For The Dark Knight, Batman is forced with an unpredictable foe (Joker) who is the physical manifestation of everything he's against. Buddha, stood under a tree and was tempted by the many things of the corrupted and selfish world (sex, alcohol, even the devil himself--metaphorically of course) but turned away from such things. Batman is tempted by the Joker to do what he always swore not to, take a life to stop injustice. Unfortunately, this doesn't go the same for Harvey Dent who's turned upside down by the madness and lost of his only love. He becomes Two-Face in an effort to seek some sort of equilibrium for the wrongs that destroyed him. Ironically, there's a Buddha' quote that great reflects this notion. Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. Vengeance is not the way, Buddha saids this, Batman lives by it, and Ras Al Ghul lived by it--and of course Dent.

Finally, The Dark Knight Rises reflects Buddha's final idea that he is not the only way to reach Nirvana and eliminate suffering, but just one of many paths. Like you said, reincarnation is prevalent in Bruce's climbing out of the Lazarus Pit in the third act. It's not only a form of breathing in new life, it's also him escaping the ideology Ras Al Ghul taught him in the beginning, he had to embrace fear or allow it to find him in order to be truly free. The Pit is the home for the forgotten and the broken (Talia, Bane, and Bruce were all down there) and what happened to each character--other than Bane--they climb out and seek their goal. This has less to do with Buddhism than it does with perseverance which of course is heavily relied on in Buddhism. Subsequently, each are enlightened after coming from the darkness with new perspectives on how to put an end to their suffering.
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  #467  
Old 07-22-2012, 03:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
How many deleted scenes were there from the previous two Nolan Batmans? Did any of them add to the story. The last part of TDK felt disjointed to me.

Have there been instances before where there were scenes no one knew about that came out after the fact? I guess Lucas did that, sort of, but I mean in terms of filling in blanks.
From what I've heard, Nolan does as much editing he can while doing rewrites to the script. I think in the case of the Dark Knight and Batman Begins, not many entire scenes were cut, but instead they whittled down shot after shot until it was nice and tight. I remember hearing that about 15 minutes were cut from the initial run-time of TDK, the only full deleted scene I'm aware of is a scene with the Joker outside the penthouse, after his first fight with Batman, explaining that he is a formidable foe. Here's an image from that scene:



However, with TDKR it's obvious that many more entire scenes were cut. The initial run-time was reported to be something close to 4 hours. I would love to see a director's cut BluRay a la Kingdom of Heaven, that helps restore some coherence and gravitas.
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  #468  
Old 07-22-2012, 03:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jig Saw 123 View Post
Batman Begins, like you mentioned, was notably drenched in Buddhist symbolism. Bruce is a young 'prince of Gotham' who is given everything his heart desires until the lost of his parents forces him to experience pain and, later on, anger. This reflects Buddha's lost of his mother, though during childbirth, is forced to be raised, singlehandedly by his father (similar to Alfred raising Bruce). Both Buddha's father and Alfred try to protect their son from the 'evils' of the world--Buddha's dad being a little more extreme. Eventually, Bruce Wayne leaves Gotham to start a new path or to experience the feeling of living through desperation (similar to Buddha leaving his wife and child to seek the path of enlightenment). Bruce adapts a high level of theatricality in order to become a symbol--extreme to even Ras Al Ghul. Buddha, in the beginning of his path to seek Nirvana, starves himself to feel the small things we take for granted. It’s up to ourselves is an idea Buddhism maintains that it is not up to others to make us meditate or study, or in Bruce's case fight injustice and save Gotham. We are responsible for creating our own suffering, and it is solely up to us to create the circumstances for our release (his release is becoming Batman). It requires personal wisdom and commitment. Bruce also follows the five precepts underlined in Buddhism. 1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures. 2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given. 3. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech. 4. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct. (which was broken in The Dark Knight Rises ) 5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. Bruce seeks to end the suffering within by eliminating the catalyst (corruption).And of course, the Four Noble Truths are obviously seen throughout the successors after BB.

For The Dark Knight, Batman is forced with an unpredictable foe (Joker) who is the physical manifestation of everything he's against. Buddha, stood under a tree and was tempted by the many things of the corrupted and selfish world (sex, alcohol, even the devil himself--metaphorically of course) but turned away from such things. Batman is tempted by the Joker to do what he always swore not to, take a life to stop injustice. Unfortunately, this doesn't go the same for Harvey Dent who's turned upside down by the madness and lost of his only love. He becomes Two-Face in an effort to seek some sort of equilibrium for the wrongs that destroyed him. Ironically, there's a Buddha' quote that great reflects this notion. Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. Vengeance is not the way, Buddha saids this, Batman lives by it, and Ras Al Ghul lived by it--and of course Dent.

Finally, The Dark Knight Rises reflects Buddha's final idea that he is not the only way to reach Nirvana and eliminate suffering, but just one of many paths. Like you said, reincarnation is prevalent in Bruce's climbing out of the Lazarus Pit in the third act. It's not only a form of breathing in new life, it's also him escaping the ideology Ras Al Ghul taught him in the beginning, he had to embrace fear or allow it to find him in order to be truly free. The Pit is the home for the forgotten and the broken (Talia, Bane, and Bruce were all down there) and what happened to each character--other than Bane--they climb out and seek their goal. This has less to do with Buddhism than it does with perseverance which of course is heavily relied on in Buddhism. Subsequently, each are enlightened after coming from the darkness with new perspectives on how to put an end to their suffering.
Um, this is completely awesome.
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  #469  
Old 07-22-2012, 04:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jig Saw 123 View Post
I understand, dude. So I'll do my best to formulate my stance on the subject.

Batman Begins, like you mentioned, was notably drenched in Buddhist symbolism. Bruce is a young 'prince of Gotham' who is given everything his heart desires until the lost of his parents forces him to experience pain and, later on, anger. This reflects Buddha's lost of his mother, though during childbirth, is forced to be raised, singlehandedly by his father (similar to Alfred raising Bruce). Both Buddha's father and Alfred try to protect their son from the 'evils' of the world--Buddha's dad being a little more extreme. Eventually, Bruce Wayne leaves Gotham to start a new path or to experience the feeling of living through desperation (similar to Buddha leaving his wife and child to seek the path of enlightenment). Bruce adapts a high level of theatricality in order to become a symbol--extreme to even Ras Al Ghul. Buddha, in the beginning of his path to seek Nirvana, starves himself to feel the small things we take for granted. Itís up to ourselves is an idea Buddhism maintains that it is not up to others to make us meditate or study, or in Bruce's case fight injustice and save Gotham. We are responsible for creating our own suffering, and it is solely up to us to create the circumstances for our release (his release is becoming Batman). It requires personal wisdom and commitment. Bruce also follows the five precepts underlined in Buddhism. 1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures. 2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given. 3. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech. 4. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct. (which was broken in The Dark Knight Rises ) 5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. Bruce seeks to end the suffering within by eliminating the catalyst (corruption).And of course, the Four Noble Truths are obviously seen throughout the successors after BB.

For The Dark Knight, Batman is forced with an unpredictable foe (Joker) who is the physical manifestation of everything he's against. Buddha, stood under a tree and was tempted by the many things of the corrupted and selfish world (sex, alcohol, even the devil himself--metaphorically of course) but turned away from such things. Batman is tempted by the Joker to do what he always swore not to, take a life to stop injustice. Unfortunately, this doesn't go the same for Harvey Dent who's turned upside down by the madness and lost of his only love. He becomes Two-Face in an effort to seek some sort of equilibrium for the wrongs that destroyed him. Ironically, there's a Buddha' quote that great reflects this notion. Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. Vengeance is not the way, Buddha saids this, Batman lives by it, and Ras Al Ghul lived by it--and of course Dent.

Finally, The Dark Knight Rises reflects Buddha's final idea that he is not the only way to reach Nirvana and eliminate suffering, but just one of many paths. Like you said, reincarnation is prevalent in Bruce's climbing out of the Lazarus Pit in the third act. It's not only a form of breathing in new life, it's also him escaping the ideology Ras Al Ghul taught him in the beginning, he had to embrace fear or allow it to find him in order to be truly free. The Pit is the home for the forgotten and the broken (Talia, Bane, and Bruce were all down there) and what happened to each character--other than Bane--they climb out and seek their goal. This has less to do with Buddhism than it does with perseverance which of course is heavily relied on in Buddhism. Subsequently, each are enlightened after coming from the darkness with new perspectives on how to put an end to their suffering.

LOVE IT!
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  #470  
Old 07-22-2012, 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by electriclite View Post
This week. He said he would probably see it Monday or Tuesday.

I really can't wait to read his take on the ending.
Spoiler:
I personally feel he will have issues.
Impressive self-restraint. I'd be going crazy if I hadn't seen the movie by now.

Spoiler:
I can see him enjoying the ending. He seemed to understand that Nolan intended on ending Bruce Wayne's story and be okay with other liberties that were taken, such as Bruce wanting to stop being Batman in TDK. If anything, I think he'll be disappointed that the love triangle between Bruce, Selina, and Talia wasn't more fleshed out.
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  #471  
Old 07-22-2012, 05:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
Spoiler:
I can see him enjoying the ending. He seemed to understand that Nolan intended on ending Bruce Wayne's story and be okay with other liberties that were taken, such as Bruce wanting to stop being Batman in TDK. If anything, I think he'll be disappointed that the love triangle between Bruce, Selina, and Talia wasn't more fleshed out.
That surely is one thing I wish had happened. Selina Kyle was still a bad ass and Anne Hathaway exceeded my expectations in the role. In the end the 2 characters' relationship seems sort of bizarre considering what you have mentioned; the weak/minute connection. In fact, she was the only thing I felt CERTAIN about going in to the film - certain that I would hate her and find Nolan's "Cat" to be lame (with a corny costume to boot). I was entirely wrong. As far as the other mention goes... she was really lame in this for me unfortunately.

For some reason I feel that what I just wrote is incoherent. Hopefully thats not the case.
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  #472  
Old 07-22-2012, 05:46 PM
Just got back from my 3rd showing....I dig it...I won't say its as strong as TDK but one hell of an endcap. But - I'm pretty sure theres a better film left on the cutting room floor if the rumored 4 hour rough cut is true....

I dont have time to write up a bunch of thoughts...but I just wanna have one nitpick for a second...

Juno Temple....I don't know if any actor/actress has ever annoyed me with such a little amount of screen time. Her delivery of "There's a storm coming, remember? This is what you wanted." makes me cringe every time.
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  #473  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post

Right, and I think that's where Nolan really succeeds as a filmmaker. I think he's been given too much credit for sticking close to the source, when I think his real talent is adapting it into a film. He captures the beloved tone of character, the darkness, but he doesn't go for the sprawling nature of the comic world like the Marvel movies do. Those are very much comic book movies, but I think his Batmans are more film-atic. One way he does this is by condensing many of the character motivations into cinematic characters. He gives movie goers someone to hate, someone to root for and doesn't just go, "Hey, then there's this guy."
While I've yet to see TDKR (seeing next weekend after I get back to Ohio), I have to say this hits the nail on the head. I am not a comic fan by any stretch of the imagination (the only ones I've read are Watchmen and some of the Dark Horse Star Wars comics), but I do appreciate well-crafted films and that's why this trilogy has appealed to me so much, in much the same way LOTR did. They aren't intended to be a visual version of a comic (or book for that matter) but their own individual beasts.
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  #474  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
Impressive self-restraint. I'd be going crazy if I hadn't seen the movie by now.

Spoiler:
I can see him enjoying the ending. He seemed to understand that Nolan intended on ending Bruce Wayne's story and be okay with other liberties that were taken, such as Bruce wanting to stop being Batman in TDK. If anything, I think he'll be disappointed that the love triangle between Bruce, Selina, and Talia wasn't more fleshed out.

Spoiler:
Yeah, he understood Nolan's take mainly in regards to Bruce looking for an out as Batman. I just dunno how he'll react to actually seeing Bruce happy not being Batman and chilling in Italy on screen. Especially since the film displays evidence of both him and Gordon both on the look out/hoping(?) for trouble so Batman could come out again and give Bruce some purpose again. Not to mention Bruce essentially handing the keys to the Batcave over to someone else.

Although I do feel he'll like the idea that if Bruce is gonna free of Batman and hopping around the world, that he's doing it with Selina. Between his tech skills, the mobile EMP and her world class catburglar skills, its gonna be a daunting task getting a photo or proof of Bruce Wayne being alive.

I personally loved it because its something no one has ever done, and anyone who has read comics on and on and on eventually gets to a point where they're like "Can someone give these people a break from all the drama?" The do have special issues on occasions where the characters have downtime, But its so much more different when its done on screen especially for this film where it has a more finite conclusion. At least in regards to this take on Batman,

Last edited by electriclite; 07-22-2012 at 06:39 PM..
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  #475  
Old 07-22-2012, 06:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jig Saw 123 View Post
I understand, dude. So I'll do my best to formulate my stance on the subject.

Batman Begins, like you mentioned, was notably drenched in Buddhist symbolism. Bruce is a young 'prince of Gotham' who is given everything his heart desires until the lost of his parents forces him to experience pain and, later on, anger. This reflects Buddha's lost of his mother, though during childbirth, is forced to be raised, singlehandedly by his father (similar to Alfred raising Bruce). Both Buddha's father and Alfred try to protect their son from the 'evils' of the world--Buddha's dad being a little more extreme. Eventually, Bruce Wayne leaves Gotham to start a new path or to experience the feeling of living through desperation (similar to Buddha leaving his wife and child to seek the path of enlightenment). Bruce adapts a high level of theatricality in order to become a symbol--extreme to even Ras Al Ghul. Buddha, in the beginning of his path to seek Nirvana, starves himself to feel the small things we take for granted. Itís up to ourselves is an idea Buddhism maintains that it is not up to others to make us meditate or study, or in Bruce's case fight injustice and save Gotham. We are responsible for creating our own suffering, and it is solely up to us to create the circumstances for our release (his release is becoming Batman). It requires personal wisdom and commitment. Bruce also follows the five precepts underlined in Buddhism. 1. I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures. 2. I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given. 3. I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech. 4. I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct. (which was broken in The Dark Knight Rises ) 5. I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drinks and drugs which lead to carelessness. Bruce seeks to end the suffering within by eliminating the catalyst (corruption).And of course, the Four Noble Truths are obviously seen throughout the successors after BB.

For The Dark Knight, Batman is forced with an unpredictable foe (Joker) who is the physical manifestation of everything he's against. Buddha, stood under a tree and was tempted by the many things of the corrupted and selfish world (sex, alcohol, even the devil himself--metaphorically of course) but turned away from such things. Batman is tempted by the Joker to do what he always swore not to, take a life to stop injustice. Unfortunately, this doesn't go the same for Harvey Dent who's turned upside down by the madness and lost of his only love. He becomes Two-Face in an effort to seek some sort of equilibrium for the wrongs that destroyed him. Ironically, there's a Buddha' quote that great reflects this notion. Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. Vengeance is not the way, Buddha saids this, Batman lives by it, and Ras Al Ghul lived by it--and of course Dent.

Finally, The Dark Knight Rises reflects Buddha's final idea that he is not the only way to reach Nirvana and eliminate suffering, but just one of many paths. Like you said, reincarnation is prevalent in Bruce's climbing out of the Lazarus Pit in the third act. It's not only a form of breathing in new life, it's also him escaping the ideology Ras Al Ghul taught him in the beginning, he had to embrace fear or allow it to find him in order to be truly free. The Pit is the home for the forgotten and the broken (Talia, Bane, and Bruce were all down there) and what happened to each character--other than Bane--they climb out and seek their goal. This has less to do with Buddhism than it does with perseverance which of course is heavily relied on in Buddhism. Subsequently, each are enlightened after coming from the darkness with new perspectives on how to put an end to their suffering.

Very awesome! Thanks!
Spoiler:
I think a lot of Batman's actions parallel this way but that maybe the overall story arc is where I'm seeing the Xtian mythos. The one action I feel is really Christ-y is him being without sin, but him sacrificing himself for sin by taking the fall for Harvey Dent in TDK. While his reincarnation can be seen as that, it can also be seen as a resurrection. I was pointing at reincarnation more in the continued reappearance of The League of Shadow, which on the Jesus-tip, I felt was more in the vein of evil taking many different faces.

It's definitely cool you shared that and I really like these kinds of things in movies. Nolan is always screaming that he doesn't intend it to be more than just a film, but I think he's a smart enough guy that all of these things are going to end up. Similar to his study of dreams with Inception, I think he's trying to make the movies as grounded in reality as possible and maybe with trying to make a heroic mythology in the film may have, intentionally or not, looked to Eastern and Western mythologies to draft this best-to-date live action cinematic version of Batman. Your input is making me think that this may be one of the most multifaceted blend of world culture into a single character, or story arc in film. Maybe this is why these versions of Bats have been the most popular worldwide?

Again, thanks for not just leaving me to dig for all this stuff on my own. I still haven't even gotten a good chance to explore the things I was feeling from it. I'd like to know if you are feeling any of the Western motifs I pointed at or if you think those are absent. I know movies can be a lot like an ink blot for people, especially ones that make no claim one way or another, but I really am intrigued on just the fact that you have dug a bit deeper into the symbolism here. Because I think this is pretty cool, and especially a nice break away from the conservative/liberal interpretations, which seem to be practically the only "look deeper" takes anyone has given these movies. This is a probably one time moment when I wish me and someone else where paired together to do a movie analysis in a world religion college class.

It's funny because the only other movie that's made me dig like this was Pulp Fiction, which I wrote an opinion piece for a local paper, pointing out existentialism and that was some time last century. So, whereas yesterday I was citing these movies as sort of a "go with it" thing for me, I think was selling them shorter than I was. I also know that this kind of stuff isn't everyone's cup of tea and sometimes diminishes the movies, so if you aren't feeling it, no worries. I'm just surprised more people aren't, as Davey described, looking for the forrest here, especially since I considered myself to be less of a devotee to these movies.

PS - I'm using this spoiler tag simply to not weigh down the thread for others who aren't into these kinds of interpretations. I would think it would be interesting to totally pick apart this movie in term of philosophy, psychology and religion. Just not politics, because I really respect that this is the one area that Nolan stands up and speaks out against looking into the movies for.

I don't think I'm going to get it all while this is in the theaters, because this was a rare moment where I got out a theater this year, but I think when this is on video, I'm going to be watching the movies much more than I had prior. I like that, to me, this is one of those cases where the whole trilogy may be greater than the sum of its parts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyJoeG View Post
From what I've heard, Nolan does as much editing he can while doing rewrites to the script. I think in the case of the Dark Knight and Batman Begins, not many entire scenes were cut, but instead they whittled down shot after shot until it was nice and tight. I remember hearing that about 15 minutes were cut from the initial run-time of TDK, the only full deleted scene I'm aware of is a scene with the Joker outside the penthouse, after his first fight with Batman, explaining that he is a formidable foe. Here's an image from that scene:



However, with TDKR it's obvious that many more entire scenes were cut. The initial run-time was reported to be something close to 4 hours. I would love to see a director's cut BluRay a la Kingdom of Heaven, that helps restore some coherence and gravitas.
Whoa. Wait a minute. For some reason I initially read that 4 hours like it was 3 hours, thinking that only 15-20 minutes had been cut.

Holy extended edition, Batman!

Yeah, I would be down with that. As much as a, like others here called it, "bladder test" this one was, I'm really eager to get this final movie on video. It's funny how this movie made the other two so instantly rewatchable for me. That seldom happens with me and franchises.

BTW - Am I alone in double taking that still, thinking The Joker is shooting a bird?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AspectRatio1986 View Post
Juno Temple....I don't know if any actor/actress has ever annoyed me with such a little amount of screen time. Her delivery of "There's a storm coming, remember? This is what you wanted." makes me cringe every time.
Oh yeah, I totally forgot about that character. She seemed totally unnecessary. I wasn't totally put off by her, but she was just kind of there. And then she wasn't. And she's no Scarecrow!

Is cool though, I never knew that girl from Atonement was Julien Temple's kid.

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  #476  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:27 PM
Just got back. REALLY surprised at all the mixed reviews for this, I thought it was pretty fucking epic.

I imagine it's because people had incredibly high and completely unrealistic expectations, that's the only way I can rationalize being "disappointed."

Review coming soon



8.5/10
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  #477  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post

Very awesome! Thanks!
Spoiler:
I think a lot of Batman's actions parallel this way but that maybe the overall story arc is where I'm seeing the Xtian mythos. The one action I feel is really Christ-y is him being without sin, but him sacrificing himself for sin by taking the fall for Harvey Dent in TDK. While his reincarnation can be seen as that, it can also be seen as a resurrection. I was pointing at reincarnation more in the continued reappearance of The League of Shadow, which on the Jesus-tip, I felt was more in the vein of evil taking many different faces.

It's definitely cool you shared that and I really like these kinds of things in movies. Nolan is always screaming that he doesn't intend it to be more than just a film, but I think he's a smart enough guy that all of these things are going to end up. Similar to his study of dreams with Inception, I think he's trying to make the movies as grounded in reality as possible and maybe with trying to make a heroic mythology in the film may have, intentionally or not, looked to Eastern and Western mythologies to draft this best-to-date live action cinematic version of Batman. Your input is making me think that this may be one of the most multifaceted blend of world culture into a single character, or story arc in film. Maybe this is why these versions of Bats have been the most popular worldwide?

Again, thanks for not just leaving me to dig for all this stuff on my own. I still haven't even gotten a good chance to explore the things I was feeling from it. I'd like to know if you are feeling any of the Western motifs I pointed at or if you think those are absent. I know movies can be a lot like an ink blot for people, especially ones that make no claim one way or another, but I really am intrigued on just the fact that you have dug a bit deeper into the symbolism here. Because I think this is pretty cool, and especially a nice break away from the conservative/liberal interpretations, which seem to be practically the only "look deeper" takes anyone has given these movies. This is a probably one time moment when I wish me and someone else where paired together to do a movie analysis in a world religion college class.

It's funny because the only other movie that's made me dig like this was Pulp Fiction, which I wrote an opinion piece for a local paper, pointing out existentialism and that was some time last century. So, whereas yesterday I was citing these movies as sort of a "go with it" thing for me, I think was selling them shorter than I was. I also know that this kind of stuff isn't everyone's cup of tea and sometimes diminishes the movies, so if you aren't feeling it, no worries. I'm just surprised more people aren't, as Davey described, looking for the forrest here, especially since I considered myself to be less of a devotee to these movies.

PS - I'm using this spoiler tag simply to not weigh down the thread for others who aren't into these kinds of interpretations. I would think it would be interesting to totally pick apart this movie in term of philosophy, psychology and religion. Just not politics, because I really respect that this is the one area that Nolan stands up and speaks out against looking into the movies for.

I don't think I'm going to get it all while this is in the theaters, because this was a rare moment where I got out a theater this year, but I think when this is on video, I'm going to be watching the movies much more than I had prior. I like that, to me, this is one of those cases where the whole trilogy may be greater than the sum of its parts.
Spoiler:
Of course, man. I heavily enjoy peeling back the layers of films that have so many different underlining themes, meanings, and motifs--which Nolan has never failed to accomplish in any of his movies. However, people have a tendency, specifically here in America, at assuming everything has an underlining political connotation, this is where--as you said--kind of limits people's general appreciation for the film as a whole. For example, I look at the psychological motivation of each of the characters in Batman's mythos, especially villains, and there's just this rich sense of complexity that I think a lot of comic book movies have tried and failed or just lack completely. That's why Batman is my favorite hero because every single villain he faces is a reflection of what could have been for him had he chosen a different path--another Buddhism reference.

I do agree with your assertions of Bruce and his journey reflecting the story of Jesus and the Holy Trinity. But what I like about it the most is that it's not directly shoved in your face like, say, The Matrix. Nolan, like you said once again, has cultivated a variety of both Eastern and Western concepts that appeal to such a wider audience that I don't think (for some time at least) we'll see another superhero movie like this and any other Batman movie that follows will most likely always be in the shadow of The Dark Knight Trilogy.

Another thing I love about Nolan's movies in general is he makes summer movies complex, but not to the point the audience is left scratching their heads at what they just watched (i.e. he's not overly ambiguous). I enjoy conversations such as these because it gives me a better idea of how other people have looked at these films for the last seven years or so.
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  #478  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:28 PM
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  #479  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:51 PM
So is John Blake Nightwing?



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  #480  
Old 07-22-2012, 07:56 PM
Saw it again. Even better the second time. I simply just don't see many of the issues people are forming with this. The only time I would say the pacing was off was during the opening scene at Wayne manor. Other than that it moved masterfully. I was never confused as to what the plot was doing or what actions the characters took. It was no more jumbled or hard to decipher then TDK, which moved almost a bit too fast sometimes imo.

What I truly love about this film is it feels epic. Properly epic. The plot, the characters, the action. It's a HUGE film that just kept on building and building until it exploded in a last block that is the most tense and suspenseful piece of action film making in a long time. And a lot of it was done with practical effects, which was such a breath of fresh air!
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