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  #41  
Old 11-30-2012, 12:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jolanar View Post
There is a huge stretch between "worthless" and "doesn't deserve to make as much money as most new college graduates."
I have a college degree. My co-worker has a Masters in English Lit, and was the star's (wont say which) body double in the last five Harry Potter films. Educated, experienced people with long-term career goals work there, those getting their Bachelor's, one her Masters; we have plenty of grown ups too, people who owned their own businesses and now just need the medical insurance, or a parent seeking extra income in a hard economy.

You say its just about being educated. Please. At my PoE, every person that works there has at least some college under their belt. Several have degrees.

Look at the state of the Law industry right now. Law Schools are trying desperately to convince their students that a law degree is worth it. A law degree. Not too long ago, being a legit lawyer meant the high life. Like, the high high life. The same goes for a number of formerly valuable positions, architects, doctors. School is more expensive than ever, SO expensive in fact, that its often no longer worth it, even over the course of an entire life's career.

The world aint what it used to be.

"Being educated" isnt either. Otherwise, why would a group of hard working, educated, experienced people like those where I work, be making the same as high school dropouts? Really, if you wanna think about it, dropping out and not having the burden of a massive, unpayable, life-long debt makes a lot more sense.

Last edited by adamjohnson; 11-30-2012 at 12:28 AM..
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  #42  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:05 AM
$15 an hour is way too much. If you can't afford rent on your own then you stay at home with your Mama, or get some roommates. These are called entry level jobs for a reason. You're supposed to move on.
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  #43  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
Plenty of people are "educated" and still work in fast food/entry level jobs, because that's just how the world is right now. In actuality, a Bachelor's degree means about as much now as a High school degree did before.
Now "how the world is right now" is because of the way of government has been stepping in for a while now including in a college education. Access to an elementary school education became "a right" then access to a high school education became "a right" and now access to a college education is becoming "a right". So how does the value of such a system break down exactly? I'm sorry but the more people have of something the less value it has even education. I value a good education very much but if we're making a college education a standard then is a "standard" now "valuable" just because "we" say so?

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The minimum wage needs to increase. It historically and currently is not rising at the same rate as inflation. So, over time, people actually earn less and less and less. If it did, it would be 10.55. Currently, it is 7.25
Where did you come up with 10.55? Where did these people come up with $15.00? So combating something that is bad (inflation) is to combat it with something else that is bad (raising minimum wage)? How about we try to stop inflation instead of just concentrating on raising the minimum wage?

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The federal minimum wage for "tipped employees" is a whopping $2.13. In most other developed countries, especially in Europe, gratuity is included in every bill. In the states, if your customers dont tip well that week, you don't have enough to survive. And in a poor economy, people dont have money to tip.
I've gone over this on how ludicrous it is to look at "other developed countries". I don't even know where to begin with this line of thought. Why don't we adopt everything that every "developed country" has done? This 'don't do it unless 'it has been done' mentality is far beyond expired. We have been doing things that other "developed countries" have done for decades now and has only been getting us into a much much worse mess in the first place.

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The minimum wage should be looked at every year to make sure it's keeping up with inflation. $15/hour is a lot, but I dont see how people can get TOO mad about 10.55/hour.
So why wouldn't a person who worked at a place for 5 years at a 3% raise each year to make it to that level be mad? I can think of tons of reasons why they would be severely pissed off. I can also think of tons of reasons why consumers would be severely pissed off at the new higher prices that the places now charge for their foods and products.

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Fast food work is very, very hard. There have been many days where I've gone home and cried. It's thankless and physically demanding. I respect anyone that earns a living doing it, usually working 60+ hours/week in the process.
Even more motivation to go on and find a better job somewhere else. I don't care how someone takes this but god damn it! Grow up! Be a responsible adult! "Do not ask what your country can do for you!" Sound familiar? People refuse to change their lives but that doesn't mean others should carry the burden and change it for them because they're too irresponsible. Why do we want to encourage irresponsibility in the first place? I respect them as well but where my respect ends is when they expect others to give them more for what they didn't earn. If I was a worker at a place 5 years removed from a minimum wage the last thing I would want is a higher minimum wage. "Yay I just worked hard for 5 years just to earn just as much as some 16 year old who just waltzed in to the place with no experience."

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And always, always remember - we touch your food. Be nice.
Oh I'm always nice but many people don't understand rich people never buy fast food. Raising wages for fast food workers hurts middle/lower class people if anything. But always, always remember - business owners pay them. So they should be nice as well.

Last edited by creekin111; 11-30-2012 at 02:21 AM..
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  #44  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:12 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
I have a college degree. My co-worker has a Masters in English Lit, and was the star's (wont say which) body double in the last five Harry Potter films. Educated, experienced people with long-term career goals work there, those getting their Bachelor's, one her Masters; we have plenty of grown ups too, people who owned their own businesses and now just need the medical insurance, or a parent seeking extra income in a hard economy.

You say its just about being educated. Please. At my PoE, every person that works there has at least some college under their belt. Several have degrees.

Good for them they have those degrees.

Look at the state of the Law industry right now. Law Schools are trying desperately to convince their students that a law degree is worth it. A law degree. Not too long ago, being a legit lawyer meant the high life. Like, the high high life. The same goes for a number of formerly valuable positions, architects, doctors. School is more expensive than ever, SO expensive in fact, that its often no longer worth it, even over the course of an entire life's career.
And why do you think school so expensive and how it got to be so expensive?

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The world aint what it used to be.
Oh sure the world changes all the time and the one entity has shown time and time again to not change with it is government action.

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"Being educated" isnt either. Otherwise, why would a group of hard working, educated, experienced people like those where I work, be making the same as high school dropouts? Really, if you wanna think about it, dropping out and not having the burden of a massive, unpayable, life-long debt makes a lot more sense.
Perhaps its because student loans and government meddling has been involved for decades in the first place? You want the same entity that has been causing all these problems to find "solutions" from their "solutions" from other "solutions" from other "solutions"... and so on and so on in the past to actually solve them again? I should need to bring up the definition of insanity for those that know it. Society is going to draw a line that a certain level of education is valuable over another. That's life. What is the definition of value? What kind of society doesn't have a value system that has long term success? If you think that everyone is going to be equally "highly educated" (or whatever that means) and receive equal benefits for their education then I really don't know what kind of fantasy world you want live in.
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  #45  
Old 11-30-2012, 06:36 AM
Probably the best way to find out what it's like to get laughed at, by people who were victims of violent crimes, would be to join a PTSD group and then share that you are there because you pay a larger percentage in taxes. I guess the government asking that you make sure your sidewalks are cleared out in the winter is the same thing as being forced to work in a cotton field.

Last edited by The Postmaster General; 11-30-2012 at 06:41 AM..
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  #46  
Old 11-30-2012, 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
And why do you think school so expensive and how it got to be so expensive?



Oh sure the world changes all the time and the one entity has shown time and time again to not change with it is government action.



Perhaps its because student loans and government meddling has been involved for decades in the first place? You want the same entity that has been causing all these problems to find "solutions" from their "solutions" from other "solutions" from other "solutions"... and so on and so on in the past to actually solve them again? I should need to bring up the definition of insanity for those that know it. Society is going to draw a line that a certain level of education is valuable over another. That's life. What is the definition of value? What kind of society doesn't have a value system that has long term success? If you think that everyone is going to be equally "highly educated" (or whatever that means) and receive equal benefits for their education then I really don't know what kind of fantasy world you want live in.
Society isn't just drawing a line between which education is more valuable and not, its drawing a line that says "Sorry we can't afford anymore. Only way in here is to be ridiculously talented/connected and/or more skilled than the experienced people we already got". People who got degrees in actual "demand", "safe" careers aren't getting work in those careers. Remember all that talk about nursing, that non-frilly profession, being the in demand career? Yup, they're not getting work. Not unless they move to another state. And that is just one example of a essential profession that's in more or less a hiring freeze.

You keep on mentioning how government meddling created this, but what's the other option? Financial aid gets cut and then government manipulates the job market by putting in more money towards people in careers they've researched are in low supply? I'm just curious if you have some model you're in favor of from a particular time and/or country or theory you want to present.

He didn't mention wanting government intervention at any point in his post. I think at this point we're very open to the people who run these worldwide, billion dollar food service companies negotiating and getting more creative and addressing this issue, instead of just an immediate crossing of arms and an "Nope, not gonna happen." reply. Also, considering the fact that at $7.25/hr while living in one of the most expensive cities in the US (And don't say move. If they can barely afford rent, how the hell are they gonna afford to research moving, a new job and a U-haul out to the boonies where things are cheap. Don't Marie Antoinette this.) these people are more than likely on some form of government assistance, which means that our cheap, fast-food is government subsidized.

Last edited by electriclite; 11-30-2012 at 08:10 AM..
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  #47  
Old 11-30-2012, 09:29 AM
I don't think most people have issues with slowly raising the minimum wage to meet inflation.

But more than doubling it overnight is just absurd and would cause more low wage workers to get laid off instantly, and small businesses to shut down everywhere and cause more trouble than it's worth. I just don't see how anyone could argue that it would do any good at all, and if you are I just can't take you seriously.
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  #48  
Old 11-30-2012, 10:16 AM
I've always felt the food at McDonald's was detrimentally underpriced and would have no problem paying more for a Big Mac (the $8 figure is hyperbole…)

If we are going to talk about government interference, we shouldn't forget that the reason McDonald's can served prepared food for cheaper than you can buy the ingredients at the grocery, is because of subsidies. It has very little to do with how much they pay their employees. We are pretty fucked if we have less of an issue with fellow citizens not being paid enough to live than we'd have with saving a dollar or two on buying junk food.
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  #49  
Old 11-30-2012, 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
Where did you come up with 10.55? Where did these people come up with $15.00? So combating something that is bad (inflation) is to combat it with something else that is bad (raising minimum wage)? How about we try to stop inflation instead of just concentrating on raising the minimum wage?
http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/facts/

You also mentioned that people can just work hard for a few years and get wage increases - another problem. At a lot of service/retail positions, they dont offer wage increases. And if you ask for one, often times you're just fired, so they can bring in a teenager who gets paid less. Happens all the time.

How the hell is raising minimum wage bad?

Ive also said this before but not here - a really good way to fix the unemployment rate is for the government to somehow offer incentives to employers to offer more full-time positions for their employees. Not necessarily higher wages, or better/more benefits. Just 40 hrs/week. Why does this help? Because many in the working poor have two (or more) jobs. They beg for full-time positions, but never get them, despite working in the same place for years. But if they had full-time positions, they could leave their 2nd job, freeing up millions of part-time positions for others.

Not a full proof plan, but if one person taking up 3 jobs just to make a liveable wage became 3 people with 1 full-time position each making a liveable wage, well you can see the benefit.

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Now "how the world is right now" is because of the way of government has been stepping in for a while now including in a college education. Access to an elementary school education became "a right" then access to a high school education became "a right" and now access to a college education is becoming "a right". So how does the value of such a system break down exactly? I'm sorry but the more people have of something the less value it has even education. I value a good education very much but if we're making a college education a standard then is a "standard" now "valuable" just because "we" say so?
Are you saying education isnt a right? Jesus. So because everyone's educated, education is worth nothing? That's crazy.

Again, most 1st world countries offer free Higher Education to their citizens, because they understand that an educated population is the greatest investment they can make in their countries.

Not only do we not offer free education, we charge the highest for it, including scam for-profit colleges that charge as much as they want and offer phony degrees that are worthless in the real world. No other country does that shit. No other country puts their TEENAGERS in massive, massive debt just when they're trying to get their lives started. Why would they?

Andif you make a mistake, or if the job market with which you are educated changes, and you want to go back to school - you can't. Because its too expensive. OFten times college is one-shot deal. Get it right the first time or not at all. Either way, you're still fucked with student debt.

Remember about 50 or so years ago, after the war, the government started offering free college tuition to degrees that were in high demand, like engineering. Why? Because they knew then that we were falling behind in key areas that could drastically affect our country down the line. It wasnt a handout. It was an investment in the future of this country.

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Even more motivation to go on and find a better job somewhere else. I don't care how someone takes this but god damn it! Grow up! Be a responsible adult! "Do not ask what your country can do for you!" Sound familiar? People refuse to change their lives but that doesn't mean others should carry the burden and change it for them because they're too irresponsible. Why do we want to encourage irresponsibility in the first place? I respect them as well but where my respect ends is when they expect others to give them more for what they didn't earn. If I was a worker at a place 5 years removed from a minimum wage the last thing I would want is a higher minimum wage. "Yay I just worked hard for 5 years just to earn just as much as some 16 year old who just waltzed in to the place with no experience."
I think you're incredibly far removed from the way the world actually works now. Simply working hard doesnt necessarily guarantee success anymore.

You find it offensive to raise the minimum wage because then people who worked hard for years would be mad? Well guess what, I worked hard in college and I Still got paid the same as some 16 year old kid when I started. You dont magically get a raise just because of a degree.

The real working poor, the ones with families to support, the ones that dont have a mama to move in with, they work their asses off, they raise families, they work 3, 4, 5 jobs just to have enough to eat. And you think thats just because theyre uneducated, becuse they dont work hard, because they havent earned it, because they're havent "grown up"?? What kind of a compassionless monster are you? I dont think you have any clue how hard these people work.

Helping people that work hard is not a handout. It's compassionate. It's fair. It's kind. It's also an investment in the future.

Last edited by adamjohnson; 11-30-2012 at 10:49 AM..
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  #50  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erroneous View Post
If people are so sick and tired of not making enough money, get educated and or some real world skills and get a better job. Fast food is not a career. Get real people.
This is a bad argument. It is actually you who needs to 'get real'.

There are two ways to improve our lot in life. One is through the individual level. We get a better education, we get more technical or in-demand skills, and so forth. This is good; it's one of the ways that countries have had massive change, like industrialization and so forth.

But this isn't enough. It isn't enough because this isn't the way economies work. Supply does not create its own demand; 'better' jobs for more educated people aren't going to be created simply because there's now more people with those skills. This is about fast-food workers; there were similar news stories about Walmart employees. Are Walmart jobs and fast-food jobs going to disappear because people became more educated? Are engineering jobs going to appear because everyone who worked at Walmart was able to get an engineering degree? No, they won't.

So we have the second way of improving our lot in life: in a collective level. We band together to demand better conditions, better benefits, a better life. This is the way that most improvement in the workforce has happened, either through unions or through massive, planned government programs. Improvement in the workforce has not happened because people were touched by the magic fairy and all individually decided to get a better education.

Americans have had it drilled through their heads for 40-50 years that no, they shouldn't collectively band together and fight their common enemy, which is the asshole that doesn't want to pay them. Instead, they should fight each other for increasingly smaller scraps. This is a tenacious propaganda campaign that has been quite successful, as we can see from the dismantling of unions and the public perception towards workers with benefits (pretty much every article about workers with benefits implies or outright states that these benefits they negotiated for are completely undeserved and their pensions should all vanish), and this crap you just peddled about how people need to just 'get better jobs', as if an economy works that way.

We see this now, when people graduate with college degrees, even masters and PhDs, only to find that they're no longer as valued as they were before, and now they can't get jobs, and even when they do, they pay shit. But of course, people can accept this, because they'd be getting paid even worse if they had a non-degree job. A predictable race to the bottom, because guess what, the world isn't just some bullshit econ 101 'you gotta market yourself, be the best good out there in the labor market' load of clap trap.

You, and everyone else suggesting similar arguments, really know absolutely nothing about how wages, employment, or economies work. It's just embarrassing to read this kindergarden nonsense. Don't you people have any sense of shame. Good God.

Last edited by The Heart Collector; 11-30-2012 at 01:44 PM..
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  #51  
Old 11-30-2012, 01:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverload View Post
$15hr!? Fast Food is an entry level job. The mangers of these places don't even make $15hr. I know many people with college degrees that don't make that much. This is ridiculous. How does it make sense that an inexperienced 16yr old could possibly go out and get the common-teen-job of fast food, and make more than a 26yr old college graduate?
Because both wages are bad, you fool.

$15 x 40 (hours) x 52 (weeks) = $31,200. A little over 30,000 dollars. That is bad.

The 16 yr old shouldn't be making more than the college graduate, because the college graduate shouldn't be making $15 an hour.

This is how this works: instead of the college graduate realizing they're both getting fucked, and banding together to support better rights for all workers, he wants the person making less to suffer more, so that he can at least be superior to that lowlife. That is class warfare. Divide the enemy and conquer, as they say.

Last edited by The Heart Collector; 11-30-2012 at 02:01 PM..
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  #52  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
Even more motivation to go on and find a better job somewhere else. I don't care how someone takes this but god damn it! Grow up! Be a responsible adult! "Do not ask what your country can do for you!" Sound familiar? People refuse to change their lives but that doesn't mean others should carry the burden and change it for them because they're too irresponsible.
Irresponsible? Why are they irresponsible, because they have a minimum wage job? You know nothing about these people. Nothing, absolutely nothing. Not a thing. And here you are, telling millions of people you've never met how to live their lives because they have a job you don't approve of. Who the fuck are you? What in God's name has given you the impression that anyone should give a shit about your 'how to live your life' advice, if you want to call that laughable ignorance and condescension 'advice'?




There are no better jobs. People with the skills can't even get the damn jobs, and you want people who don't have them to get them. Or do you think the unemployment rate is the way it is because people don't want to work?

Last edited by The Heart Collector; 11-30-2012 at 02:10 PM..
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  #53  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
Why is there no sympathy for the worker who worked hard for 5 years from a minimum wage to a higher wage? That hard worker got a 3% raise every year for their diligence and dedication. Along comes this busy body politician that says now any pimple faced teenager can come along and now and get as much pay as that worker. Of course its not fair because again that's not what liberals want.

There is no sympathy for the workers because the workers worked, and made money. They have their raises, and their $15 dollars, which they presumably wanted and needed in order to support themselves. The workers have that money, and they've used it. This is wholly irrelevant to what anyone else is making.

The worker shouldn't feel bad that other people are now able to make the same amount by working less because it's spiteful, childish, and idiotic.

Why should other people make the same as I do? If they do, I won't be able to feel superior to them. The answer is because your sense of superiority is less important than other people's ability to live dignified lives.

Last edited by The Heart Collector; 11-30-2012 at 02:18 PM..
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  #54  
Old 11-30-2012, 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Heart Collector View Post
Because both wages are bad, you fool.

$15 x 40 (hours) x 52 (weeks) = $31,200. A little over 30,000 dollars. That is bad.

The 16 yr old shouldn't be making more than the college graduate, because the college graduate shouldn't be making $15 an hour.

This is how this works: instead of the college graduate realizing they're both getting fucked, and banding together to support better rights for all workers, he wants the person making less to suffer more, so that he can at least be superior to that lowlife. That is class warfare. Divide the enemy and conquer, as they say.
But if all the wages go up, then so will the cost of living. It will cause inflation. It will cancel itself out. It always has, and always will.

$30,000 isn't great, but it isn't bad. It might be bad to you. It's more than what I make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Heart Collector View Post
The worker shouldn't feel bad that other people are now able to make the same amount by working less because it's spiteful, childish, and idiotic.

Why should other people make the same as I do? If they do, I won't be able to feel superior to them. The answer is because your sense of superiority is less important than other people's ability to live dignified lives.
It's not about that at all.

This isn't some ridiculous class warfare, it's simply: “I went to school. I spent all these years, money, and sacrifice to earn a better living for myself. So, why am I tens of thousands of dollars in debt with school loans and still earning as much money as I would have if I had never gone to school?”

Last edited by Silverload; 11-30-2012 at 03:15 PM..
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  #55  
Old 11-30-2012, 03:25 PM
Quote:
But if all the wages go up, then so will the cost of living. It will cause inflation. It will cancel itself out. It always has, and always will.
This is completely absurd and obviously untrue. Nothing in the historical record suggests anything like this. Do you realize the implication of this argument is that a society's quality of life can never change? This is clearly false, as society's quality of life has changed, plenty of times.

It's just a ridiculous lie used to make people think that they shouldn't fight for wage increases. We know all the other examples are false too; wages going down doesn't make cost of living go down. Wages stagnating doesn't make cost of living stagnate. It's just when you want a raise that "no, it won't work".

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This isn't some ridiculous class warfare, it's simply: “I went to school. I spent all these years, money, and sacrifice to earn a better living for myself. So, why am I tens of thousands of dollars in debt with school loans and still earning as much money as I would have if I had never gone to school?”
You are tens of thousands of dollars in debt with school loans and earning as much money as you would have if you had never gone to school* because you've been lied to. You've been led to believe that the way to success is alone. But that's not true. What you just do is to stand together with your fellow man, not stand alone.

That is the point. This isn't merely people working at McDonalds being uppity; at almost every level, working Americans have seen eroding labor rights. All of you are getting fucked by the people who pay your wages, and that's who you should be paying attention to, not the guy who makes a lesser wage than you do. Workers who stand together and manage to improve their conditions should be praised. These people don't need to reduce their demands because this guy here went to college.


* not true.

Last edited by The Heart Collector; 11-30-2012 at 03:28 PM..
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  #56  
Old 11-30-2012, 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverload View Post
This isn't some ridiculous class warfare, it's simply: “I went to school. I spent all these years, money, and sacrifice to earn a better living for myself. So, why am I tens of thousands of dollars in debt with school loans and still earning as much money as I would have if I had never gone to school?”
This thing about education is weird because no one is saying that people who work at McDonald's, and have college degrees, should get paid more. It's about the living wage being too low. People act like high schoolers or uneducated people are the only ones allowed to work at McDonalds, but what about longevity? A high schooler shouldn't be working there any more than a year or year and a half, given labor laws, and they shouldn't be working there full-time AT ALL. Anyone who works there longer obviously is trying to support something, regardless of what it is doesn't matter. It's here that I point to the quote from the guy in the article who people are snubbing here -- He's worked there 30-40 hours for over a year and hasn't had a raise.

This is all about personal freedom to people here, but why are we shitting on people's freedom to make demands to their employees and strike? Why is that such a problem? I don't get why someone would side with the personal freedom choice to treat people like inferior citizens, regardless of whether they are being an asshole. And yes, if you hire a single mother who lost her nursing job and has been a good worker past the orientation period and then refuse to give raises when your company is profiting by the billions. Yes, I don't care what you believe, it would be odd for you to think that's at the least a bit uncool.

electriclite also brought up a point I wanted to make, but was to mesmerized with tax increases on upper class being a metaphor for violent assaults by a gang on a person in an alley… Minimum wage to work at McDonald's in NYC is pretty crazy. I can't speak outside of Manhattan but the amount of revenue there, and the pressures of the job, are insane. To pay someone in a large area like that, the minimum like you would someone working in bumfuck, Nebraska - that's just assholish.

And sure, people can find other jobs… OR they can make things better for them and the next person. That's exactly what these people are trying to do. They aren't getting paid to strike. They aren't getting anything else out of it except a venue to point out issues they see and ask for changes based off that. It's something of a revolt.

To me, this is the same thing our forefathers did, except now, there is no more land to take over and conquer. There's no more colonies to be made because everything is under control already. Right now, I kind of feel like global corporations are akin to the monarchy of the 18th century. It's a different fight, that needs different methods.

<insert drunk and sped-out emoticon>
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  #57  
Old 11-30-2012, 06:47 PM
Well l have to say that pay conditions are very low in fast food stores

I know the mcdonalds stores in Australia pay low wages when if you worked in any other hospitally area you should get around 24 dollars a hour

I know there is a place called the star cosino where they pay there kitchen staff 15 dollars an hour

You see l work oin a hospitailty job and get the right wages and they are not as low as fast food places or some restraughts

I did work in mcdonalds a few years ago and the wages then were around 8 dollars an hour

And not much has changed now

How do they expect people to pay bills and things

It is only if you make it to manager in the fast food sector that your wage might increase abit


http://www.fairwork.gov.au/industrie...ing-wages.aspx

Also in Australia we have this where we can ask qestions on how much we should be receiving in wages

You see alot of jobs pay you underneath of what you should be recieving

Last edited by Bondgirl; 11-30-2012 at 07:12 PM..
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  #58  
Old 11-30-2012, 07:16 PM
Sure, I've worked for assholes and I can see how easy it is to blame the employers for the shitty conditions. But they're not the problem(save CEO gov't quislings like Warren Buffet et al). They are a red herring--a distraction--from the real problem of what prevents peaceful and voluntary employer/employee relationships. That largely unspoken problem is the gun of state coercion and is primarily why so many are unemployed and underemployed, let alone underpayed.

Employers simply aren't allowed to give anyone a fair shake anymore or they will be fined if not jailed. The government loathes free and open[fair] competition on every level(which is why you should never steal btw ).

And they love it when the worker(s) blames the employer for his predicament instead of the source of all the myriad rules and regulations enforced at the point of a gun(the state) operating behind the employer's shitty policies.

The same kinda thing happened after that world class social engineering experiment(aka communism) failed. Instead of people waiting forever in the state-run bread lines complaining about the inefficiency of state bread(too clear a ruse); the state got "in bed" with (I'll use a euphemism here since 'takeover' makes things complicated for some people)the breadmaker's company as a "silent partner"; and the people waiting forever in the bread lines could then bitch about the bread company instead(as well as to come to hate the idea of free enterprise); thereby giving a pass to the state altogether; and then asking for the state to do something to stem the "evil" company's bad policies. Pretty clever.

Not much has changed now; except that in order for you to work at McDonald's you gotta be bilingual(not sure if this has extended from the West Coast to the East Coast yet). They won't tell you that though, they just say it's "preferred".

As for New York City and the wage system there; anyone willing to feed that monstrous leviathan with their tax dollars(paying $16 for a pack of cigarettes etc.) deserve whatever they get, Hurricane Sandy included. I'm from there and escaping that place was one of the best things I ever did.

As for the fast food workers themselves; I simply see this as the beginnings of a trend of unravelings that will bring us that much closer to Greece. Get your $1 McDoubles and McChickens while you can!
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  #59  
Old 11-30-2012, 07:36 PM
Well l have to say that there are a few employers around where l live who try to pay you low wages for there staff

I couldnt beleive how many l came across trying to say that they were only prepared to paying you 12 dollars an hour this is there adult wage
I can tell you that you shoulfd never work for that type of money and also l have come across employers while being interveiwed for a job and they wont tell you waht you pay will be that is a big no no

Also there are employers who pay cash in hand which is illegal in Australia
They do this so they dont have to pay the tax department

I am for a fair pay and not for little wages like l have just told you
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  #60  
Old 11-30-2012, 07:42 PM
I get a kick out of when employers ask me what I think I'm worth an hour to them. I usually have fun pointing out about 20 or so different variables and criteria to them; thereby showing them I know that they know the inanity in asking such a question and that I know I'll never receive such starting pay.
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  #61  
Old 11-30-2012, 07:45 PM
I have to admit one employer asked me that very qestion

i stated that l wanted 25 dollars an hour and the look on that person face nearly made me laugh

he said he could only afford 15 dollars so l said l would work for someone who pays that amount when l know l can get more
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  #62  
Old 11-30-2012, 07:50 PM
Nice one.

I always bring cost of living into it and automatically show that $9-$15 isn't feasible for anyone trying to live even a simple life.

Not here anyway.
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  #63  
Old 11-30-2012, 07:56 PM
Well these days you can not live on 10 to 13dollars a hour the way prices of things are sky rocketing

Plus if you know you can do better you do go for it knowing you can have that extra money in your pocket

I can understand workers demostrating and wanting more when they know others in the same job are getting the right money
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  #64  
Old 11-30-2012, 08:01 PM
I can certainly understand the workers coming to that understanding to demonstrate.

When there aren't exactly alternate/backup jobs falling out of the sky to fall back on.

There really aren't many options. So yeah, I can see their frustration.
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  #65  
Old 11-30-2012, 08:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by electriclite View Post
Society isn't just drawing a line between which education is more valuable and not, its drawing a line that says "Sorry we can't afford anymore. Only way in here is to be ridiculously talented/connected and/or more skilled than the experienced people we already got". People who got degrees in actual "demand", "safe" careers aren't getting work in those careers. Remember all that talk about nursing, that non-frilly profession, being the in demand career? Yup, they're not getting work. Not unless they move to another state. And that is just one example of a essential profession that's in more or less a hiring freeze.
And its exactly because of billions of direct and indirect government involvement owning a business is much more of a risk and a pain in the ass to maintain. The private sector has been shrinking as the public sector has been growing and sucking away at the private sector. But why the private sector is suffering is a totally different subject.

Quote:
You keep on mentioning how government meddling created this, but what's the other option? Financial aid gets cut and then government manipulates the job market by putting in more money towards people in careers they've researched are in low supply? I'm just curious if you have some model you're in favor of from a particular time and/or country or theory you want to present.
Here's the problem: http://www.joblo.com/forums/showpost...3&postcount=35 Back during the days when everyone didn't need a college education or be automatically rejected from any high paying job remember? Again government has been offering more and more financial aid over the recent years and tuition has been hitting through the roof. Again you're not really offering a solution just adding more to the problem. A private college education is not a right and is not supposed to be cheap. That's the whole point. But since everyone wants it to be we end up with this vicious cycle.

There are a number of things that are pushing more and more students to higher education, but subsidizing is a HUGE part of it. Also we've seen a number of credit bubbles over the last 30 years or so. That's what having a fractional reserve banking system and a central bank that inflates the monetary base tends to do - cheap money chases after investments that aren't always so good. In addition to subsidized loans you have an increase in private loans for students (just like you have an increase in car loans, home loans, credit card/consumer debt). All of that creates an increase in the demand for secondary education which in turn will cause prices to go up.

1) You honestly are unable to comprehend the idea that if you artificially flood a specific market with tons of money to buy a product, that said product won't increase in price?

If I have a lemonade stand and I know that your mom is gonna give you $5 a day to buy lemonade but you can ONLY USE THAT MONEY TO BUY LEMONADE, don't you think I'm going to raise my price and take advantage of your free money? I know I would as well as anybody else would.

2) Also federal loans aren't the only form of government aid to students. Do you think the impact from said market flooding happens overnight?

Quote:
He didn't mention wanting government intervention at any point in his post. I think at this point we're very open to the people who run these worldwide, billion dollar food service companies negotiating and getting more creative and addressing this issue, instead of just an immediate crossing of arms and an "Nope, not gonna happen." reply. Also, considering the fact that at $7.25/hr while living in one of the most expensive cities in the US (And don't say move. If they can barely afford rent, how the hell are they gonna afford to research moving, a new job and a U-haul out to the boonies where things are cheap. Don't Marie Antoinette this.) these people are more than likely on some form of government assistance, which means that our cheap, fast-food is government subsidized.
Well how is $10/hr going to make any difference? Especially since the cost of living will go up. Do you actually think we can live in a world we're there isn't a working poor class? Do you really think we can eliminate poverty completely by government force? What's your end game here? All I see is a never ending cycle that kills savings and yes those people who used to get raises with those low end job are no longer getting them because its artificially distorted by a minimum wage. If the minimum wage was raised to $15/hr then you would start seeing almost everyone who already earns that much ever get a raise either. You might as well say unpaid interns never get hired full time.
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  #66  
Old 11-30-2012, 09:16 PM
That is^IF you have a license and a permit to open a lemonade stand.....
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  #67  
Old 11-30-2012, 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
http://www.raisetheminimumwage.com/facts/

You also mentioned that people can just work hard for a few years and get wage increases - another problem. At a lot of service/retail positions, they dont offer wage increases. And if you ask for one, often times you're just fired, so they can bring in a teenager who gets paid less. Happens all the time.

How the hell is raising minimum wage bad?
Businesses can fire you for asking for a raise? That almost never ever happens. And if it does so what? Then either the job is terrible and perhaps you should find a different job that eventually offers raises or you really aren't doing a good job to deserve that raise. Getting a raise isn't a right. A free man has no right to more of another man's property. Neither does a free man have a right to associate with another free man.

Quote:
Ive also said this before but not here - a really good way to fix the unemployment rate is for the government to somehow offer incentives to employers to offer more full-time positions for their employees. Not necessarily higher wages, or better/more benefits. Just 40 hrs/week. Why does this help? Because many in the working poor have two (or more) jobs. They beg for full-time positions, but never get them, despite working in the same place for years. But if they had full-time positions, they could leave their 2nd job, freeing up millions of part-time positions for others.
So then they'll just give them cheaper full time jobs that would pay almost as much as if it was part time all the while giving existing businesses unfair advantages over emerging businesses or businesses yet to be formed. A business is meant to run efficiently if there's work then work has to be paid for. It would be wildly inefficient for a business to have a worker who sits on their ass half the time when the work isn't needed. And where do we get this 40 hours a week from? Why not 50? Why not 30?

Quote:
Not a full proof plan, but if one person taking up 3 jobs just to make a liveable wage became 3 people with 1 full-time position each making a liveable wage, well you can see the benefit.
No I don't see the benefit because someone has to pay more money for work that doesn't exist or isn't needed. You honestly don't see any unintended consequences snowballing into a huge massive cluster fuck down the line?

Quote:
Are you saying education isnt a right? Jesus. So because everyone's educated, education is worth nothing? That's crazy.
Education is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality, accountability and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Recognizing that the education of children is a parental responsibility, we should restore authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. Parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education. That's crazy? Oh yeah because you say so.

Quote:
Again, most 1st world countries offer free Higher Education to their citizens, because they understand that an educated population is the greatest investment they can make in their countries.
If its so important to you and your children then you should pay for it. Public education has been getting worse and worse because we're trying to pay less for a more demanding service. Also again using 1st world countries as an example is extremely short sighted and narrow minded. "Don't try something unless it has already been tried."

Quote:
Not only do we not offer free education, we charge the highest for it, including scam for-profit colleges that charge as much as they want and offer phony degrees that are worthless in the real world. No other country does that shit. No other country puts their TEENAGERS in massive, massive debt just when they're trying to get their lives started. Why would they?
Who's forcing teenagers by gunpoint to take on massive debts? Again supply and demand. You're not going to wave a magic wand and its going to stay cheap forever.

Quote:
And if you make a mistake, or if the job market with which you are educated changes, and you want to go back to school - you can't. Because its too expensive. OFten times college is one-shot deal. Get it right the first time or not at all. Either way, you're still fucked with student debt.
As for reasons why I explained why student debt is so expensive in the first place above.

Quote:
Remember about 50 or so years ago, after the war, the government started offering free college tuition to degrees that were in high demand, like engineering. Why? Because they knew then that we were falling behind in key areas that could drastically affect our country down the line. It wasnt a handout. It was an investment in the future of this country.
And how did that "investment" turn out? Government never invests in anything efficiently and especially not in the long term.

Quote:
I think you're incredibly far removed from the way the world actually works now. Simply working hard doesnt necessarily guarantee success anymore.
Life isn't a guarantee. Whoever said anything was a guarantee? Please quote me. I'm really getting sick of this demand from perfection from my side. Always interpret any criticism of government programs or intervention as a demand for perfection and attack such a demand as unrealistic. "You think if everyone works hard everyone will be a billionaire." NO!!! I'll tell you one thing that's a guarantee whenever government sticks its fat nose into something it fucks everything up.

Quote:
You find it offensive to raise the minimum wage because then people who worked hard for years would be mad? Well guess what, I worked hard in college and I Still got paid the same as some 16 year old kid when I started. You dont magically get a raise just because of a degree.
What are you talking about? Its your responsibility to find a job with better pay and I never said it was magic or automatic. Again nothing is guaranteed! I never said anything to the contrary. You seem to be the ones who are guaranteeing things. Nobody got a raise from $5.25 an hour to $7.00 an hour over a few years for being a loyal good employee to only see now their $7.00 an hour is now the same wage every new employee is guaranteed to just because some politician said so? All that loyalty and good work back to the minimum again. And you don't think there isn't anybody who got raises from $7.25 to $10? But now you want their loyalty and hard work back to the minimum again.

Quote:
The real working poor, the ones with families to support, the ones that dont have a mama to move in with, they work their asses off, they raise families, they work 3, 4, 5 jobs just to have enough to eat. And you think thats just because theyre uneducated, becuse they dont work hard, because they havent earned it, because they're havent "grown up"?? What kind of a compassionless monster are you? I dont think you have any clue how hard these people work.


Helping people that work hard is not a handout. It's compassionate. It's fair. It's kind. It's also an investment in the future.
Your "help" is pointing a gun at someone's head and forcing them to surrender more of their property. How compassionate.

And yeah awesome calling me a monster. Nothing more to discuss here. Again more name calling and it seems to be coming to the left. I'm getting sick of this shit and had enough.
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  #68  
Old 11-30-2012, 09:49 PM
http://www.joblo.com/forums/showthread.php?t=147567
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  #69  
Old 11-30-2012, 10:00 PM
Thanks bourahioro. I'm just getting sick of the name calling and offensive language towards me and others. I've just been generally ignoring any of those who do so. Not worth my time or effort. I just thought some would have more respect for the opinions of others on here without resorting to stuff like that. But sadly its getting worse like it does on every board. Oh well.
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  #70  
Old 11-30-2012, 10:12 PM
No problem - The long and short of it is that there are very few *real* rules here. Both JoBlo and I have zero tolerance for bullshit. I didn't put up with it when I was a Moderator before, and I won't now that I'm a Moderator again.

JoBlo has made it VERY clear that certain things are unacceptable, and *some* people just don't get it. Perhaps they will now.

If you (or ANYONE else) have *any* problems with other Schmoes shoot me a PM and I'll look into it within 24 hours.
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  #71  
Old 11-30-2012, 11:06 PM


"If you have a weak heart or a large corner office, brace yourself, because this may come as a shock: Henry Ford paid his workers a decent wage and still made good money. In 1914, he doubled their wages to $5 a day. He wanted to decrease turnover and make it so that every employee could afford to buy one of the cars they built. Two years later, Ford had doubled its yearly profits - from $30 million per year to $60 million. Not bad for an hourly investment of $2.50 per employee.

“It’s ironic that I have to use an example from the past to illustrate perhaps a bridge to the future,” Jennifer Granholm says. “If 21st-century industrialists want a middle class that is capable of buying their products, they should pay the wages that allow the workers to do so. Not how little they can get away with, but how much they can afford, rather than hoarding profits as the middle class shrivels.”
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  #72  
Old 11-30-2012, 11:22 PM
“You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it.”
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  #73  
Old 12-01-2012, 12:20 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
And always, always remember - we touch your food. Be nice.
Haha reminded me of Project Mayhem.
"Do not fuck with us!"

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  #74  
Old 12-01-2012, 01:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
Nobody got a raise from $5.25 an hour to $7.00 an hour over a few years for being a loyal good employee to only see now their $7.00 an hour is now the same wage every new employee is guaranteed to just because some politician said so? All that loyalty and good work back to the minimum again.

That happens every few years in the human service field due to COLA increases. People with longevity get their salaries somewhat standardized with the starting workers. Few people grumble but no one revolts. In 15 years I've never seen anyone quit or get disgruntled over it. The general consensus as far as I've seen has been that it's heavily supported because it keeps bringing in new talent and keeps positions filled.

Of course, probably no one working with or involved in human services thinks the people at the back of the line should get a shitty ended stick just because, and only because, they were at the back of the line.

People are putting McDonald's in this magic bubble, free of government interference, while totally, and continuing totally to, ignoring that McDonald's benefits heavily because of government subsidies. I'd be interested to see the numbers on how much profit the corporation makes from subsidized ingredients vs. paying employees $100 more a week.

Maybe an aside, but does anyone remember in the mid-90s when McDonald's started charging for extra condiments?
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  #75  
Old 12-01-2012, 03:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
That happens every few years in the human service field due to COLA increases. People with longevity get their salaries somewhat standardized with the starting workers. Few people grumble but no one revolts. In 15 years I've never seen anyone quit or get disgruntled over it. The general consensus as far as I've seen has been that it's heavily supported because it keeps bringing in new talent and keeps positions filled.
Perhaps not right away because its not as if COLA happens overnight. It happens slowly but gradually and its like that metaphor of a frog in the slower boiling water. Many people never believe (or want to face the reality) that cost of living will increase and effect them negatively but it always does gradually in small doses. Long term its a terrible detriment to people like them whether the recognize it or not but many eventually do sooner or later.

And yeah government subsidies are bad mmm'kay. Combating something bad with something else that is bad multiplies the badness. Two negatives does not equal a positive.

Last edited by creekin111; 12-01-2012 at 04:49 AM..
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  #76  
Old 12-01-2012, 05:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
Perhaps not right away because its not as if COLA happens overnight. It happens slowly but gradually and its like that metaphor of a frog in the slower boiling water. Many people never believe (or want to face the reality) that cost of living will increase and effect them negatively but it always does gradually in small doses. Long term its a terrible detriment to people like them whether the recognize it or not but many eventually do sooner or later.

And yeah government subsidies are bad mmm'kay. Combating something bad with something else that is bad multiplies the badness. Two negatives does not equal a positive.

Actually COLA does happen overnight.

And my point about the subsidies McDonald's receives were more to point out that you and others are acting like McDonald's and other corporations are in a bubble that is free from government intervention. Maybe I didn't outright say that... Oh wait, I did. Anyway, there is a huge difference between an entity or citizen acting freely from the government and one that benefits from the government, especially in this case where it's such a huge benefit. I'm not pointing out that subsidies are bad, I'm pointing out that it's hypocritical to overlook that a company can reap billions due government interference when voicing outrage over the slight possibility that the company might have to spread the wealth due to government interference.

Last edited by The Postmaster General; 12-01-2012 at 10:16 AM..
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  #77  
Old 12-01-2012, 11:06 AM
I want to bring up the whole "just get an education and get a better job" argument.

If you've actually been through college, more specifically if you started with community college, then surely you may have noticed some older adults, mostly women, trying to go back to school and get a degree, mostly likely so they could get that better job.

Most of them fail because of two reasons: math and science, but mostly math. When you've been out of the game for a long time, trying to make it through the gauntlet of math classes required for a bachelor's degree is fucking hard. I'll bet most people here who've been out of school for just a few years couldn't solve most algebra problems. Now try waiting twenty years and see what it's like. With ever progressive math class I took, there were less and less older adults hanging around, until finally there were none at all in my last couple classes.

Personally, I was pretty good at the stuff myself in high school, yet struggled with just a little time off of it when I went to college. I barely passed my final class, and was only able to do so because I had a couple really good teachers to help me out.

While not as difficult, science was pretty tough too for most older adults. The dropout rate wasn't as high as it was with math, but it was there.

Now imagine trying to get through all that if you never had a solid educational foundation to begin with, which is something a lot of the working poor don't have. The reality is that a college education is completely out of reach for a lot of people. And simply saying "you should get a better education" is every bit as absurd as telling internally warring nations in the Middle East or Africa "You should just stop fighting" to solve their problems.

Last edited by Badbird; 12-01-2012 at 11:09 AM..
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  #78  
Old 12-01-2012, 11:56 AM
I'm enjoying the situation presented here where the government is maligned for ruining the way things should work while looking down on people for not merely going out and getting an education or job in this system...which the government has severely harmed.

Kind of like:

"My business isn't making enough for me to do very well"
"Well it's the damn government's fault, if they got out of the way you'd be earning better profits"

versus

"My job doesn't pay enough for me to afford basic needs"
"Why don't you get an education and a better job then? Stop whining!"

And it's great to know that you can indirectly tell someone their job is worthless and doesn't earn you things like RENT or FOOD and be untouched, but people who get upset by those kinds of statements will get banned. See adamjohnson, you're not directly being told that you're just a burger flipper who's too lazy to go out and get real work. It's being told to you and millions of people like you!

I'm not arguing against the decisions made (they were given previous warnings and broke the rules), but these rules (or rule, really) were put in place to make sure this forum could have actual discussions. Instead I see people using them as a shield to protect themselves when they say hateful remarks.
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  #79  
Old 12-01-2012, 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by someguy View Post
And it's great to know that you can indirectly tell someone their job is worthless and doesn't earn you things like RENT or FOOD and be untouched, but people who get upset by those kinds of statements will get banned. See adamjohnson, you're not directly being told that you're just a burger flipper who's too lazy to go out and get real work. It's being told to you and millions of people like you!

I'm not arguing against the decisions made (they were given previous warnings and broke the rules), but these rules (or rule, really) were put in place to make sure this forum could have actual discussions. Instead I see people using them as a shield to protect themselves when they say hateful remarks.

Agreed. There is something slightly backwards about what just went down. Disappointed.

Last edited by Bourne101; 12-01-2012 at 12:24 PM..
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  #80  
Old 12-01-2012, 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Postmaster General View Post
Maybe an aside, but does anyone remember in the mid-90s when McDonald's started charging for extra condiments?
They still charge for extra condiments(there's even a sign in the one across the street from me now that says it does), like when I get a 20-piece McNuggets I ask for 6 or 7 pure honey sauces. Sadly though, since the NEW sauces came out, they seemingly have discontinued with the pure honey. So I bring my own now.
You haven't had a proper McNugget without the honey(and I don't mean the honey mustard).
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