Boxing anyone?

[Darth Kenshin]

So Mayweather/Pacquiao has hit another bump in the road now that 50 Cent (pursuing a business relationship with Pacquiao) is no longer working with Floyd. He was a guy who potentially could've brought them together, but it's not gonna happen.

Look, as much as I would love for the fight to happen, it's time to move on. After what Sergio and Andre Ward did in September, the prospect of Mayweather/Pacquiao isn't as appealing, as in most people's minds, they're no longer the 2 best fighters in the world (whereas in 2009, they were 1-2 by FAR).

How about Floyd vs. Sergio Martinez and Pacquiao vs. Danny Garcia or something like that? Get Canelo involved in here somewhere (I strongly feel he's gonna fight Floyd soon, even though I don't want it to happen). Regardless, stop trying to make Mayweather/Pacquiao happen. Floyd clearly doesn't want the fight unless it's under his conditions, and Pacquiao (rightfully) has too much pride to put up with Floyd's BS.

$40 million flat offer with no upside from PPV? Get real, Floyd. That's especially atrocious after Pacquiao said he'd give Floyd more money (55-45 split) any way.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

I agree with you Darth. It seems like the other guys on the P4P list have caught up to Floyd and Manny. Ward has cleaned out 168, one of the deepest divisions in the sport, by schooling everyone he's faced. Donaire may be the biggest puncher in the sport, P4P. (He actually put a dent in Fernando Montiel's head. No joke. Look it up on Google). Manny hasn't knocked anyone out in three years and Floyd is not what I'd consider an active fighter.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

My Top 15 P4P List:

1. Andre Ward
2. Nonito Donaire
3. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
4. Manny Pacquiao
5. Sergio Martinez
6. Juan Manuel Marquez
7. Wladimir Klitschko
8. Vitali Klitschko
9. Timothy Bradley
10. Carl Froch
11. Miguel Cotto
12. Abner Mares
13. Anselmo Moreno
14. Danny Garcia
15. Lucas Matthysse

[Darth Kenshin]

p4p best is tough. It kind of reminds me of BCS Rankings, since it's so rare that the best actually play each other (or, in this case, fight each other). There are two different "tests" so to speak:

1. Sight test - which guy LOOKS the best and most complete. Similar to college football, which teams LOOKS the best

2. Accomplishment test - which guy has actually done the most. In college football, it's strength of schedule

I don't like hypotheticals, so I rely more on the accomplishments. So, while I honestly believe Floyd Mayweather is the most complete fighter in the world (and really, he might be the most complete fighter I've ever seen), I'd have to agree with you, Brando, and put Ward at #1 now. He's just done so much more. It's the same reason that Kansas State should be (and is) ranked ahead of Oregon, even though Oregon looks more talented.

1. Ward
2. Mayweather
3. Martinez
4. Pacquiao
5. Donaire - still looks like he doesn't know what he's doing yet, but his ceiling is basically limitless

After those 5, I feel there's a pretty significant gap. Maybe Marquez is 6, but honestly, he might just be a style problem for Pacquiao. He also loses points because his recent wins have been tarnished (Katsidis and Diaz).

[Brando @$$ Fat]

With P4P we tend to award career achievements over recent ones. Normally that's fine and I think it certainly should be a factor, but it becomes problematic when the older big-name fighters become less active and the younger guys start catching up to their achievements. It's like when people stopped recognizing Roy Jones as #1 P4P in favor of Shane Mosley. Even though Jones hadn't lost his skills and was still very dominant, his career progression had clearly plateaued while Mosley was frequently challenging himself and winning big fights. Floyd has been in that same boat for the last few years now. It's harder for me to make a case for Floyd at #1, while I don't have to strain as much with Ward and Donaire.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

I'm really impressed with the way Abner Mares has been able to hold off his high level of competition with just his sheer determination. He's not really fast and he doesn't hit very hard, but his ability to cut off the ring and pound the body is quality stuff. One of these days he's going to need a point deduction because the dirty stuff can get out of hand, but I'm really impressed with him. If he's not in the top 10 P4P, he's right outside of it. I don't see him beating Donaire, though.

[Darth Kenshin]

Great win for Mares. I think he's in the 10-15 range p4p. Would love to see him vs. Donaire. Would be exciting.

Glad to see Wlad pick up a W without Steward. It's a shame he hasn't really been challenged. Hard to properly place him historically. Wish there was someone who could actually give him a challenge.

Wlad is as physically gifted as any one I've seen. Obviously powerful, but much quicker than he's given credit for. Against stiffer competition, he'd have a chance to be a top 10 heavyweight. But since he never fought any one, hard to place him among the greats.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

Wlad is as physically gifted as any one I've seen. Obviously powerful, but much quicker than he's given credit for. Against stiffer competition, he'd have a chance to be a top 10 heavyweight. But since he never fought any one, hard to place him among the greats.

I think history will be a lot kinder to Wladimir than we are now. He's going on 9 years without a defeat and is a very active fighter by this generation's standards. He turned a nearly catastrophic career into one of the most dominant heavyweight reigns of all time. The lack of competition is somewhat negated by his sheer dominance over an entire era of heavyweights. Also, he hasn't had that Hasim Rahman moment yet where he randomly loses to a mediocre opponent. He is the epitome of consistency.

Part of the problem is that Americans simply don't take to Eastern European sports stars. There isn't an abundance of them in football or baseball, our two biggest pastimes. Even the ones who come over here for basketball and play really well, like Peja Stojakovic, are largely ignored. Maybe we're too culturally isolated from that part of the world.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

I hope to god Ricky Hatton never fights again. He was good in 2005 but he sucks now and will probably end up a punchline like Gerry Cooney if he keeps at it. I like him a lot personally and liked watching him when he could fight, but with all the drug abuse and KO losses he's becoming the most depressing boxer on the planet.

EDIT: Robert Guerrero looks like a completely different fighter from three years ago. He used to be really boring and over-technical, but moving up in weight he's had to deal with opponents in a different way. He isn't as fast or strong at 147 so it's fun to watch him dig down a little to get wins over quality guys.

[Darth Kenshin]

Amazing how every time Canelo is in the stands watching a potential opponent, the big money fight gets ruined. First was Victor Ortiz. Now, Cotto. Hilarious.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

At least Canelo has better options than he did just a few months ago. A losing Cotto is a hundred times better than a winning Victor Ortiz.

[Darth Kenshin]

And Austin Trout is a much better fighter than Josesito Lopez, if he fills in. Otherwise, Canelo gets dusted by the Mayweather train.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

And Austin Trout is a much better fighter than Josesito Lopez, if he fills in. Otherwise, Canelo gets dusted by the Mayweather train.

Yeah, I have a feeling though that Canelo isn't going to fight either guy. Even though I think his ceiling is a lot higher than most people think it is, those are two of the slickest guys in the sport. Hell, Mayweather may be the slickest fighter of all time. Golden Boy tends to coddle their fighters a lot more than other promoters.

I have a weird feeling about tomorrow's fight. I have no clue who's going to win, but I have a feeling it won't be a typical meeting between these two. Maybe it's a bad thing or a good thing, but I don't see another 12 round close decision.

[Darth Kenshin]

...

This is what I was afraid of.

So Marquez wins. Now what? Pacquiao still has a 2-1-1 edge. Do they fight again?

If not, what does Marquez do next? I would've hoped the biggest star in boxing (internationally, not in the US) would lose in a "pass the torch" way. Not to a 39 year old who won't be able to capitalize on the biggest victory of his career for too long.

I hated this fight and everything about it since it was signed. Sure, it was exciting. Might even be fight of the year. But in the long run, how was this good for boxing?

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

...

This is what I was afraid of.

So Marquez wins. Now what? Pacquiao still has a 2-1-1 edge. Do they fight again?

If not, what does Marquez do next? I would've hoped the biggest star in boxing (internationally, not in the US) would lose in a "pass the torch" way. Not to a 39 year old who won't be able to capitalize on the biggest victory of his career for too long.

I hated this fight and everything about it since it was signed. Sure, it was exciting. Might even be fight of the year. But in the long run, how was this good for boxing?

What the fuck are you talking about? This just reminded the world how great boxing is. That fight was insane. Good for Marquez and Pacquiao for putting on such a great show. I doubt there'll be a rematch.

[Erroneous]

Originally Posted by Brando @$$ Fat

What the fuck are you talking about? This just reminded the world how great boxing is. That fight was insane. Good for Marquez and Pacquiao for putting on such a great show. I doubt there'll be a rematch.

I am with you. This is great for Boxing. I think there will be a rematch as long as Pacquiao wants one. This has been a great series of matches.

[Darth Kenshin]

Originally Posted by Brando @$$ Fat

What the fuck are you talking about? This just reminded the world how great boxing is. That fight was insane. Good for Marquez and Pacquiao for putting on such a great show. I doubt there'll be a rematch.

Boxing needs stars to survive in the masses. That's just a fact.

Yes, this was a great fight, but I want new blood in boxing. It's why I wanted Chavez to beat Martinez. It's why I love Andre Ward and Donaire. It's why I think Gamboa is better than he actually is. I want a group of guys in their 20's or early 30's who are great fighters and great draws. Marquez, being 39, isn't going to get any one new interested in boxing. If, say Pacquiao was knocked out by Bradley, then I feel people would've been more interested in seeing someone knew ascend to the pantheon. That's what I mean.

[jaw2929]

I saw that the Pac-Man went down to Marquez last night.... Wow. I think Mayweather surpasses Pacquiao as far as biggest Boxing draw, just by default at this point! So much for a Mayweather/Pacquiao fight now!

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

Boxing needs stars to survive in the masses. That's just a fact.

Yes, this was a great fight, but I want new blood in boxing. It's why I wanted Chavez to beat Martinez. It's why I love Andre Ward and Donaire. It's why I think Gamboa is better than he actually is. I want a group of guys in their 20's or early 30's who are great fighters and great draws. Marquez, being 39, isn't going to get any one new interested in boxing. If, say Pacquiao was knocked out by Bradley, then I feel people would've been more interested in seeing someone knew ascend to the pantheon. That's what I mean.

Don't overlook the great things young fighters have done this year. Andre Ward just clobbered the best light heavyweight on the planet after cleaning out the most talent-stacked division in the sport. Adrien Broner is coming off a huge win where he looked virtually unbeatable. I think the future will be fine.

All these years, we were paying attention to Pacquiao because he was the guy who retired Oscar, the biggest moneymaker. If Marquez had beaten up Oscar like that, he'd have been the star this whole time. Juan Manuel Marquez is a legend in this sport and we made him out to be some second fiddle. In reality, he is in the same pantheon as Robinson, Ali, Leonard, and Chavez.

[jaw2929]

Originally Posted by Brando @$$ Fat

Juan Manuel Marquez is a legend in this sport and we made him out to be some second fiddle. In reality, he is in the same pantheon as Robinson, Ali, Leonard, and Chavez.

So having said that boss, where does Pacquiao fall? Is he up there too, ya think? How about Mayweather?

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by jaw2929

So having said that boss, where does Pacquiao fall? Is he up there too, ya think? How about Mayweather?

It's hard to say. It depends on how much we want to penalize Pacquiao for losing so brutally; or how much we want to punish Mayweather for ducking Pacquiao. I hold both of them in very high regard, despite their shortcomings. What I do know is that Marquez will finally get the recognition he deserves as more than a future Hall of Famer, but a truly legendary fighter.

[Darth Kenshin]

Boxing history is goofy and I think the way we used to remember things has completely changed. Nowadays, with all of the internet blogs and 24/7 sports coverage, controversial decisions are more apparent. For example, I'm sure there were some iffy decisions that past great fighters got, but for the most part, they're forgotten (with the notable exception of Leonard/Hagler). I think Marquez will be given a lot more credit for "losing" twice to Pacquiao than other fighters in the past who were on the short end of similarly controversial decisions.

That said, Pacquiao will be considered better because of what he accomplished in various weight classes and because he peaked higher.

The "peak" is always an interesting thing in boxing rankings. I always go back to Hopkins/Jones. At their respective bests, Roy Jones was comfortably better than Hopkins (Hopkins was never regarded as the p4p best figher in the world, but Jones was for almost a decade). But Hopkins was better for a longer period of time. What do you weigh more heavily: peak excellence or longevity and accomplishment? Kind of hard to say. But the fact is Pacquiao, at his peak, was more dominant than Marquez, and even though he clearly won't age as gracefully, I think that's enough to establish him as the better fighter and one of the 40 best fighters of all-time, at least. Probably top 30

[Brando @$$ Fat]

That's a fair assessment, Darth. I think I would agree that Pacquiao rates higher because of what he did from 2006 to 2009, being as dominant as he was against such elite competition. I wouldn't rate Marquez too far behind, though. Aside from beating Pacquiao, his reign as lightweight champ was underrated. Juan Diaz and Michael Katsidis may not seem like huge conquests now, but those two were a big deal at one point and Marquez stopped both of them in thrilling slugfests. They were never the same afterwards. Also, he deserves credit for ridding us of Joel Casamayor.

[Darth Kenshin]

Donaire just locked up fighter of the year. Sorry, Marquez.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

Donaire just locked up fighter of the year. Sorry, Marquez.

Yeah, I would agree with this. Not because Marquez didn't have an amazing year, but Donaire has been utterly dominant and sent two quality fighters into retirement. He went from P4P elite to being a probable future Hall of Famer in one year. That said, he clearly did struggle a little with Jeff Mathebula last July.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Great. Boxing gets a break on network TV and the shitty corrupt judges absolutely fuck it up once again. Thanks a lot, assholes.

[jaw2929]

Originally Posted by Brando @$$ Fat

Great. Boxing gets a break on network TV and the shitty corrupt judges absolutely fuck it up once again. Thanks a lot, assholes.

I'm not in the loop.... Can you please explain? What happened?

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by jaw2929

I'm not in the loop.... Can you please explain? What happened?

There was a rematch this afternoon on NBC between Tomasz Adamek and Steve Cunningham. It was the rematch to a masterpiece of a fight four years ago. The rematch was a good one too, but the judges fucked over Cunningham, who clearly won the fight. Boxing hasn't been on a major network like this in a while and in its showcase fight the judges shamefully reminded the public of boxing's judging problem.

I love boxing but I hate boxing judges. A few of them are ok but too many of them are just slimy, corrupt people.

[Darth Kenshin]

Mayweather is hoping to fight twice next year. As much as I love the younger guys, the fact is the sport is better when Mayweather is active. He's the biggest star in the sport right now and two fights would be fantastic.

Only problem is, who does he fight? Roberto Guerrero? Canelo? Those are the names I keep hearing.

My hopes: May vs. Timothy Bradley. When's the last time two Americans squared off in a truly significant fight? That could be fun, and it'll also be an easy fight for Mayweather (who will have been inactive for over a year by then and probably wouldn't want to take too big a risk).

September: SERGIO MARTINEZ. That's the only career defining fight left for Mayweather now that Pacquiao is out of the question. Honestly, no other win would mean anything to his legacy. But if he took down Sergio? That would be epic. Personally, I would expect Martinez to beat him, but I'd still love to see it.

Don't count Mayweather/Pacquiao out yet. It could still happen in September if Pacquiao fights Marquez earlier in 2013 and wins convincingly. Kind of like when Rahman knocked out Lennox Lewis and postponed the Lewis/Tyson showdown a bit.

[jaw2929]

Originally Posted by Brando @$$ Fat

There was a rematch this afternoon on NBC between Tomasz Adamek and Steve Cunningham. It was the rematch to a masterpiece of a fight four years ago. The rematch was a good one too, but the judges fucked over Cunningham, who clearly won the fight. Boxing hasn't been on a major network like this in a while and in its showcase fight the judges shamefully reminded the public of boxing's judging problem.

I love boxing but I hate boxing judges. A few of them are ok but too many of them are just slimy, corrupt people.

First Bradley's "win" over Pac-Man earlier on in the year, and now this? I agree with you. I'm very new to Boxing and I enjoy what I've seen so far.... But this corrupt judging bullshit has to end!

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

Don't count Mayweather/Pacquiao out yet. It could still happen in September if Pacquiao fights Marquez earlier in 2013 and wins convincingly. Kind of like when Rahman knocked out Lennox Lewis and postponed the Lewis/Tyson showdown a bit.

Marquez is not Rahman. Not even close. One is a future Hall of Famer and the other was a B-fighter who got lucky once against the champ. Pacquiao can't just go into a fifth fight with Marquez and destroy him with ease the way Lewis did to Rahman in their rematch.

I wouldn't mind seeing Pacquiao and Marquez go their separate routes for now and face each other in their final fight. Pacquiao-Mayweather would at least give people some closure even if it's nothing close to what it would've been three years ago. I'd love to see Marquez vs. Brandon Rios or Lucas Matthysse. Win or lose, Pacquiao-Marquez 5 would be a great send off fight for both men.

[jaw2929]

So Nonito Donaire has won The Ring's "Fighter of 2012" year end award. I've heard nothing but good things about him, and I guess he had 4 solid fights throughout this year. I've not seen him box, but he's definitely one I'm going to make an effort to see!

[Darth Kenshin]

Of all the truly elite fighters, Donaire is the most active. That's why he's such a wonder to watch. We're lucky if guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Marquez, or Martinez fight twice in a given year. Andre Ward hasn't fought more than twice since 2009, and even then some of the competition was mediocre. For Donaire to fight 4 times against quality opponents in one year is just insane. I can't remember the last time a guy had 4 fights that tough in a calendar year.

So his willingness to fight the best, along with his committment to random drug testing year-round (not just while training), and his aggressive, exciting style... he's basically everything you want in a boxer.

[jaw2929]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

Of all the truly elite fighters, Donaire is the most active. That's why he's such a wonder to watch. We're lucky if guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Marquez, or Martinez fight twice in a given year. Andre Ward hasn't fought more than twice since 2009, and even then some of the competition was mediocre. For Donaire to fight 4 times against quality opponents in one year is just insane. I can't remember the last time a guy had 4 fights that tough in a calendar year.

So his willingness to fight the best, along with his committment to random drug testing year-round (not just while training), and his aggressive, exciting style... he's basically everything you want in a boxer.

If definitely sounds like it and it also sounds like his achievement as Boxer of the year was very well deserved. Definitely gotta check out his fights!

[Brando @$$ Fat]

Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin

Of all the truly elite fighters, Donaire is the most active. That's why he's such a wonder to watch. We're lucky if guys like Mayweather, Pacquiao, Marquez, or Martinez fight twice in a given year. Andre Ward hasn't fought more than twice since 2009, and even then some of the competition was mediocre. For Donaire to fight 4 times against quality opponents in one year is just insane. I can't remember the last time a guy had 4 fights that tough in a calendar year.

Donaire had a good year but it was an overrated year. The drug testing is fine but I don't really think that should make the difference. Holyfield won that award numerous times, deservedly, and does anyone doubt he didn't juice at least a little in his career?

Besides, everyone knew Jorge Arce was completely shot. He's an old warrior who had no reflexes and only a little punch resistance left. That was a sad, painful mismatch. Vazquez Jr. got KO'd by Arce, so while I consider him a good fighter he's not even a top 10 fighter in that division. Mathebula was a decent fighter too, but he wasn't world level and he was very competitive with Donaire. Nishioka was the best win, by far.

Thinking about it more, I just think people are butthurt about Marquez because of the PED accusations. I get that, but let's compare the quality of victories here. Marquez knocked out a legend, who also happens to be his greatest rival, with one perfect shot. Donaire beat four quality guys who combined don't equal a Manny Pacquiao.

[jaw2929]

Originally Posted by Brando @$$ Fat

Donaire had a good year but it was an overrated year. The drug testing is fine but I don't really think that should make the difference. Holyfield won that award numerous times, deservedly, and does anyone doubt he didn't juice at least a little in his career?

Besides, everyone knew Jorge Arce was completely shot. He's an old warrior who had no reflexes and only a little punch resistance left. That was a sad, painful mismatch. Vazquez Jr. got KO'd by Arce, so while I consider him a good fighter he's not even a top 10 fighter in that division. Mathebula was a decent fighter too, but he wasn't world level and he was very competitive with Donaire. Nishioka was the best win, by far.

Thinking about it more, I just think people are butthurt about Marquez because of the PED accusations. I get that, but let's compare the quality of victories here. Marquez knocked out a legend, who also happens to be his greatest rival, with one perfect shot. Donaire beat four quality guys who combined don't equal a Manny Pacquiao.

To counter-argue, I guess the question now becomes: Who had a better year than Donaire?

[Darth Kenshin]

Marquez only fought twice this year, and only one win was significant. Grantes, it was Manny Pacquiao, but that doesn't make him the fighter of the year. Knockout of the year? No question. Event of the year? Probably. But Fighter of the Year encapsulates 12 months worth of work.

Donaire did what very few elite fighters have done in the last 15 years: fought 4 MEANINGFUL fights. No, none of his victories were as significant as beating Manny, but there were still 4 quality opponents. His overall body of work, over the course of the entire year, makes him the right choice for Fighter of the Year.

It's like giving the Cy Young award to a guy who pitched a perfect game and a couple other shutouts, but overall went 15-11 and didn't have the overall body of work as another elite pitcher. Singular moments, no matter how impressive, shouldn't sway awards meant to represent an entire year. Only the Heisman Trophy doesn't follow that rule.

[Brando @$$ Fat]

The idea of "Fighter of the Year" is purely subjective and I get why some might choose Donaire. He's been really sharp and all that's left for him right now is the fight with Mares. It's a matter of quantity vs. quality and I think there were other fighters out there who proved just as much, if not more, in fewer fights against superior opposition this year. Hell, I think Danny Garcia should also be in the conversation. If it always came down to quantity, then Pongsaklek Wonjongkam would've won this award ten years in a row.

I find it strange that as soon as everyone became suspicious of Marquez, everyone started hailing Donaire as Fighter of the Year, citing his activity and participation in random drug tests (reasons that have never been used for someone being picked as FOTY) as the reasons for the honor.

[Darth Kenshin]

It's a combination of quality vs. quantity. Wongjongkam is very active, but he rarely fights significant fights. He fought 7 times in 2011, for example. 5 of those fighters had fewer than 10 professional fights. That's not proving much. Donaire took on 4 difficult, meaningful fights.

One thing I agree with you on, Brando, is Donaire's drug testing shouldn't be a factor in Fighter of the Year. I brought it up to Jaw just to give some background on him as a fighter and why he's the kind of guy everyone should watch and take note of. But it definitely shouldn't be the rationale for picking him over Marquez for Fighter of the Year.

[jaw2929]

Appreciate it Darth. I did read that about how Donaire agrees to be randomly drug tested at any time throughout the year for no real reason at all. That's something to be respectful of and to be proud about.... But I agree, it shouldn't have any bearing on making him fighter of the year. His in-ring skills have done that for him!