#41  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:33 PM
.

Last edited by SS-Block; 03-31-2014 at 05:46 PM..
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  #42  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:41 PM
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Originally Posted by SS-Block View Post
I agree with your sentiment. But outlawing guns wont tackle the problem of illegal firearms. How do we get rid of all firearms? And imagine a world without nukes and guns etc, knife crimes would go up. Get rid of knives, and it would increase spear chucking crimes, and then rock throwing crimes.
There are illegal firearms in all of these countries that have a hundredth of the amount of gun deaths that America has. Of course there will be illegal firearms, but that doesn't mean that the number of gun deaths will remain the same or increase. It will most definitely decrease. And the knives argument is not a very good one. Recently a man in China stabbed 22 children on a playground and how many of them died? Zero. A knife can kill, yes, but not as easily as a gun, and in many cases, an individual with a knife could be easily subdued, unlike someone with a gun.
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  #43  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by jolanar View Post
Making guns illegal only harms the everyday citizen. Just take a look at Mexico. 30 thousand people dead because drug gangs are running rampant and normal citizens aren't allowed to protect themselves. All it does is give criminals more power.


If we are going to strip away guns from citizens, then there is NO reason for cops to have guns either. Strip them of their guns as well. Oh whats that, they would still need them because criminals don't care about laws? Well I'll be who would known.
To be fair, that's fucking Mexico dude. Besides, what about accidental death?

I never said strip everyone of guns anyway. Reading comprehension.
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  #44  
Old 12-15-2012, 09:53 PM
Only the most naive person would think that if all guns were outlawed, that suddenly all police officers would become more polite. That would be a pretty frightening place to be.
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  #45  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:37 PM
I started thread about guns and do still think Obama needs to do some thing about it is no use cry ing about it l still think you need to follow Australia lead on,this the primister was in couple years ago paid people to sell their guns it is amazing what,a person, does http://www.joblo.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=75 when moneyn becomes involved

Last edited by Bondgirl; 12-15-2012 at 10:45 PM..
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  #46  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:48 PM
Take no notice of the link on the above post
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  #47  
Old 12-15-2012, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Bondgirl View Post
l still think you need to follow Australia lead on,this the primister was in couple years ago paid people to sell their guns it is amazing what,a person, does when becomes involved
Good point Bondgirl. In Australia, there has been a 60% decrease in gun-related homicides since that happened and there have been no mass shootings.

Last edited by Bourne101; 12-15-2012 at 10:55 PM..
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  #48  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:18 PM
Another thing Obama could do is toughen up boarder control Australia has they stopped2000 weapons from getting on our streets all these weapons were bought on the net so that is another area he needs to stop
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  #49  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guiltless View Post
"Gun Free Zones" might as well be called Easy Pickin's.
Gun free zones do not exist so that criminals otherwise wanting to enter the school will just turn and go, "oops, didnt know it was a gun free zone." Of course not.

They exist to prevent ACCIDENTAL shootings of children.

Does anyone else not remember that viral video of the big, beefy SWAT guy that was demonstrating gun safety in a classroom and the gun went off and shot him in the leg???

Guy is probably the epitome of gun training and gun safety. He's giving a lecture on it for goodness sake. Yet, thank fuck he was the one struck by the bullet and not a child.

Accidents happen. And around guns, those accidents are usually fatal.

We will never know what could have been, had this guy not had access to semi-automatic guns, which he used to kill 20 children in 5 minutes. If it was a knife, bomb, bat, whichever - we just dont know. And it's really pointless to speculate upon that. But any logical person understands that , most likely, it would not have been as severe.
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  #50  
Old 12-15-2012, 11:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guiltless View Post
Only the most naive person would think that if all guns were outlawed, that suddenly all police officers would become more polite. That would be a pretty frightening place to be.
Yeah, especially not right away. Like, as if the law is enacted and suddenly only hardened criminals have weapons, and its just anarchy. People firing into the air, looting store front windows, and robbing people in daylight, while the cops stand by stuffing their faces.

I can't believe that even passes for an argument.

Police would still have guns.
Ordinary citizens would still have guns.

There would just be less of them. And, since 80% of guns involved in gun fatalities were initially obtained LEGALLY, fewer legally obtained guns would equal fewer illegally obtained guns.

Simple.
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  #51  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:02 AM
I proposed this a while back, but why dont we make weapons insurance mandatory for all firearms? Certainly, we do this for cars.

Making people pay a $100 bucks per gun per month would surely curb people from the responsibility, since so few would be able to afford it. And, since that insured weapon would naturally be registered, there would be fewer "floating" guns out there.

In addition, any accident caused by the weapon could be paid for by the insurance, given you're not found at fault.

I also think where you can sell your weapon should be tightened. For instance, you MUST sell it back to the government when you're done with it. And you should be required to allow an inspection of the weapon at least once a year, to be certain you havent lost it or sold it somewhere you shouldnt have, like a pawn shop or gun show, or on the corner etc.
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  #52  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:23 AM


No, no, by all means, flood more guns into the situation without any sort of mandatory training. Absolute guaranteed smaller body count.

The answer is not banning guns and not flooding the country with them, so let's remove those two straw men from the argument. Now we're left with just the REAL issues, let's discuss those.

We have gun shows/fairs etc that have exhibitions an estimated 5000 times a year, where the ATF states only 50%-75% of the vendors posses a Federal Firearms License. It is also estimated that at the largest of these gun shows, 1000 firearms are sold in 2 days.

Now its not the amount of firearms that's alarming, its the percentage of vendors at these events that don't have an FFL to sell, meaning that between 50%-25% of these "vendors" or "private sellers", as they call themselves, are not required to keep records of what arms they sold, and in some reported cases these non-licensed vendors don't do background checks or ask for an ID. These vendors say they fall under the Firearm Owners Protection Act; that they are individuals "not engaged in the business" of dealing firearms, or that they only make "occasional" sales within their state of residence, so they are under no requirement to conduct background checks on purchasers or maintain records of sale. However federal law states that selling firearms to persons you have reason to believe are felons or otherwise prohibited from purchasing firearms is illegal.

Does anyone see where there could be an issue here? My mother's husband exchanged cars with his daughter-in-law. They had to get paperwork and the cars' registrations together to do a legal transfer of ownership. But if I want to sell my gun, I can just trade it with someone like I did my McDonald's fries during lunch in gradeschool. And if someone says this person wasn't allowed to have a gun my defense is "Well they didn't tell me."?

Can we agree that we all see a problem with this?

The killer in the Virgina Tech massacre was adjudicated as mentally unsound, but since he himself didn't fill out the part of the questionnaire about his mental health, aka: court ordered outpatient treatment, when he purchased guns from TGSCOM he was able to bypass the NICS. Why, before 2007, was it merely the purchaser's responsibility to provide information against themselves when it came to buying a weapon?

You're a gun manufacturer, you want your product to be used for defense purposes and/or hunting, right? Ideally you don't want your product or your company to have a bad name, so why wouldn't you put the effort on your end to make sure your product is not used by these kinds of people?

Here's an argument: If I leave my wi-fi network unsecured and someone uses it to download movies and music illegally and they trace it back to my IP address, legally I can be the one held liable for any copyright infringements because it was my responsibility to guard my network and put a password on it to avoid this scenario. So in, comparably, the most trivial of legalities I can be held liable, but in possible life and death cases, I'm not?


Now today Larry Pratt, executive director of Gun Owners of America says that the tragedy at Sandy Hook could've been averted if all those teachers in the school had been carrying. Carrying what exactly? Let's review: The killer came to the school wearing all black, a mask,a bullet proof vest, a semi-automatic rifle and two handguns, possibly semi-automatic glocks. So what? Teachers need to carry automatic rifles, Uzi's and armor piercing rounds?

Let's see what Capt. Gordon has to say about this:

Jim Gordon: We start carrying semi automatics, they buy automatics, we start wearing Kevlar, they buy armor piercing rounds...

How about something simple? Like instead of arming a population to the teeth with a multitude of weapons without requiring any sort of training on how to responsibly use, store and maintain these weapons, how about one or two armed and trained security guards/police officers posted at all schools (dependent upon size of school). Of course the argument will be made that this is financially unfeasible in this economy. Now here's my argument: Nobody argues the cost of security when they're filling body bags with dead kids.

Last edited by electriclite; 12-16-2012 at 12:52 AM..
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  #53  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaw2929 View Post
Thing is, you outlaw guns in any country.... It'll be just like drugs. There will be alternative methods to get them, and if someone wants one bad enough, they'll be able to still get it.

So it doesn't really matter either way. People are fucking stupid in general, but if a stupid fuck is determined enough, it won't matter if it's legal or not.
This exactly...
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  #54  
Old 12-16-2012, 01:29 AM
Seeing how the shooters mom - the teacher killed in her home and whose class he murdered - was a gun collector and had several semi-automatic weapons, some of which were used in the shootings, I'd say it's time to take a hard look at our need for assault weapons.

I'd also say it's time to take a hard look at the lunacy masquerading as parenting in this country, and how it seems to be impacting the behaviors of the children being raised.

In the army, I learned to use a lot of weapons. We took training and handling of weapons very seriously. Military training was memorable because they covered everything completely and left a very thin margin for error. As a result, I handle them with care to this day.

Looking at the events of the last few months and years, I don't see that same respect for weapons or consequences for misuse. I don't see people treating life as valuable or important. Shooters just kill at random. And nothing is being done to stop it from happening. And the ones who suffered should never have had to.

Since yesterday, we can't begin to understand how so many people have had their lives ruined. How many kids died in fear or pain. How many parents won't ever see those babies again. How many siblings lost someone they had known their whole lives. How holidays and family gatherings are destroyed forever. There's no excuse for it.
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  #55  
Old 12-16-2012, 12:24 PM
Occasionally we see the shit hit the fan in other countries where a population is oppressed, and those people stand up to their corrupt governments and fight back, using weapons. Now you can say, "that will never happen here". Hopefully you're right, but in case it does, I want a way to fight back and protect myself. SO, no I wouldn't ban guns.
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  #56  
Old 12-16-2012, 07:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
To be fair, that's fucking Mexico dude. Besides, what about accidental death?

I never said strip everyone of guns anyway. Reading comprehension.
I was just responding to the thread in general, the title of which is "Do you think guns should be outlawed?"

And your right, that is Mexico. There is no real way to compare Mexico to the United States, just like there is no way to compare places like England and Japan with the United States. But I would say we have a lot more in common with Mexico as far as gangs and drug violence and the sort. Certainly not at the scale though. Not to mention England and Japan are both tiny tiny island countries.
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  #57  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
Yeah, especially not right away. Like, as if the law is enacted and suddenly only hardened criminals have weapons, and its just anarchy. People firing into the air, looting store front windows, and robbing people in daylight, while the cops stand by stuffing their faces.

I can't believe that even passes for an argument.

Police would still have guns.
Ordinary citizens would still have guns.

There would just be less of them. And, since 80% of guns involved in gun fatalities were initially obtained LEGALLY, fewer legally obtained guns would equal fewer illegally obtained guns.

Simple.
I spoke to a security guy today about how easy it would be to still get guns if they were outlawed. As he was ex-military, he went to explain how gifted certain people are in that they have the eye and the skill to make weapons. He knows one of these guys. And indeed, this guy told him that if he ever needed a piece, that he would take care of him. He doesn't want cops to be the only ones who can carry guns either.

So no, I really don't think much would change. It would just be harder for people to diffuse situations like at the school. Kinda like now, but worse.
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  #58  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:16 PM
Granny does not approve of this thread...
Spoiler:

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  #59  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jolanar View Post
I was just responding to the thread in general, the title of which is "Do you think guns should be outlawed?"

And your right, that is Mexico. There is no real way to compare Mexico to the United States, just like there is no way to compare places like England and Japan with the United States. But I would say we have a lot more in common with Mexico as far as gangs and drug violence and the sort. Certainly not at the scale though. Not to mention England and Japan are both tiny tiny island countries.
No, there's plenty more to compare. The latter two choices are first world countries. The first is not.

Quote:
So no, I really don't think much would change. It would just be harder for people to diffuse situations like at the school. Kinda like now, but worse.
There's much more evidence to support that things WOULD change, rather than didn't. It might take a while, a decade if not more, and certainly our situation is most definitely unique in we share a border with Mexico the way we do, as was mentioned. So it might not be as equally an effective measure.

And like I said before, I'm sure doing one thing or another, whatever it is, it wont be perfect. But it'll be progress.

Can anyone agree with me that doing nothing is not the answer?
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  #60  
Old 12-16-2012, 11:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guiltless View Post
So no, I really don't think much would change. It would just be harder for people to diffuse situations like at the school. Kinda like now, but worse.
I feel sorry for you if you actually believe this.

Last edited by Bourne101; 12-17-2012 at 12:10 AM..
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  #61  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:10 AM
.
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  #62  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne101 View Post
I feel sorry for you if you actually believe this.
Prohibition doesn't work. I feel sorry for anybody who approaches issues like this based on emotion or kindergarten logic(in your case- no guns would mean less violence). As for your pity toward me, save it for yourself. And your condescension here is basically an insult, so your argument basically self-detonates anyway.
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  #63  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Guiltless View Post
Prohibition doesn't work. I feel sorry for anybody who approaches issues like this based on emotion or kindergarten logic. As for your pity toward me, save it for yourself. And your condescension here is basically an insult, so your argument basically self-detonates anyway.
You show me some statistics that indicate that anything you're babbling about contains any logic whatsoever and maybe I'll begin to take you seriously.
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  #64  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:44 AM
People don't fucking learn. Of course guns are the problem. This mother took her autistic son and taught him how to use dangerous weapons that he eventually used on grade schoolers. This is a revealing and terrifying truth. The majority of Americans support gun control measures and yet it's being held up by a rambunctious minority that doesn't give a fuck about human life at all. It's sickening how backwards this country is on this one issue.
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  #65  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:44 AM
Guns are not the problem. People are. I would like to point out I read a story that in China some guy just used a knife to cut up a 20 or so people in a school of grade schoolers. It is my understanding this has been a problem there this year. I will say few deaths with knives, so far. Guns are a very efficient and easy way to kill many people at one time.
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  #66  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Erroneous View Post
Guns are not the problem. People are. I would like to point out I read a story that in China some guy just used a knife to cut up a 20 or so people in a school of grade schoolers. It is my understanding this has been a problem there this year. I will say few deaths with knives, so far. Guns are a very efficient and easy way to kill many people at one time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne101 View Post
And the knives argument is not a very good one. Recently a man in China stabbed 22 children on a playground and how many of them died? Zero. A knife can kill, yes, but not as easily as a gun, and in many cases, an individual with a knife could be easily subdued, unlike someone with a gun.
.
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  #67  
Old 12-17-2012, 12:59 AM
The simple fact is people with guns kill people. That's all there is to it. This will never change. It makes absolutely not one shred of difference what measures are taken to control this. There is no one miraculous solution to this problem. Tragedies such as this will happen time and again. And there's not a single thing anybody can do to stop it. So long as people as a whole want to be armed and dangerous, our society will never ever be a 100% safe place to live in. Guns in the right hands are acceptable. In the wrong hands it's totally unacceptable. It's all about the right decisions being made by the right people. Trouble is that the majority of people who own fire arms have no right to. A gun license means didly squat if the user is irresponsible with his weapons in the first place. Any whacko can go and buy a gun, pay for a license, then go kill some people. And that happens more times every year than I can even count. This will not change.
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  #68  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:04 AM
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Originally Posted by God of War View Post
The simple fact is people with guns kill people. That's all there is to it. This will never change. It makes absolutely not one shred of difference what measures are taken to control this. There is no one miraculous solution to this problem. Tragedies such as this will happen time and again. And there's not a single thing anybody can do to stop it.
The gun control methods of dozens of countries would indicate otherwise. Of course, it's not as if gun-related death will all the sudden disappear, but no one is saying that. We're just calling for some common fucking sense.
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  #69  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brando @$$ Fat View Post
People don't fucking learn. Of course guns are the problem. This mother took her autistic son and taught him how to use dangerous weapons that he eventually used on grade schoolers. This is a revealing and terrifying truth. The majority of Americans support gun control measures and yet it's being held up by a rambunctious minority that doesn't give a fuck about human life at all. It's sickening how backwards this country is on this one issue.
Let me correct you here. It's not a GUN problem. It's a PEOPLE problem. Mom taught him how to use a weapon, well there's the fucking problem. It starts with parenting. I'm not a gun supporter at all, but I also see that there are two sides to the problem.

Looper had essentially tackled this idea.
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  #70  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Digifruitella View Post
Let me correct you here. It's not a GUN problem. It's a PEOPLE problem. Mom taught him how to use a weapon, well there's the fucking problem. It starts with parenting. I'm not a gun supporter at all, but I also see that there are two sides to the problem.
Still though, you have bad parenting worldwide, but because people in most countries can't hoard semi-automatic rifles that they bought at Dick's motherfucking Sporting Goods (seriously, it is INSANE that one can do this), the bad parenting doesn't generally lead to mass shootings. The person may act out in other ways (drugs, stabbing someone, etc.), but he/she will generally not have the ability to kill 30 people in a matter of minutes.
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  #71  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:30 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne101 View Post
Still though, you have bad parenting worldwide, but because people in most countries can't hoard semi-automatic rifles that they bought at Dick's motherfucking Sporting Goods (seriously, it is INSANE that one can do this), the bad parenting doesn't generally lead to mass shootings. The person may act out in other ways (drugs, stabbing someone, etc.), but he/she will generally not have the ability to kill 30 people in a matter of minutes.
I was waiting to retort with that though, you won't have people with the same issues, and problems as him go out and commit mass shootings - this is true of course, but it minimizes the problem when you, as a parent do your duties right. Communicate well with your kids, and have the fuckin' brains to know the difference between good and bad parenting. But obviously it wouldn't stop anything in the world. As long as people live on this earth, you'll have dictators, you'll have terrorists, and you'll have straight up lunatics.
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  #72  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne101 View Post
.
Nice to see we are reading the same stuff and that people don't think I make shit up. LOL
I did not read most of the posts here. But thanks Bourne.
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  #73  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:45 AM
Yes his mum took the shooter to a shooting rang which was wrong also the aunt said the boy had problems all through his life but like some parents you try and ignore it but what he shoulfd have got was help also what made angry was having a gun fair the next day they had all different sort of guns and,the buyer couldn't care that all those children were shot with these weapons
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  #74  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:47 AM
I just want to say that I do not own a gun. I used guns in the military. I have seen what bullets from guns can do. I will not ever own a gun or have a gun in my house as long as we don't fall into Mad Max's world. The biggest reason why I do not have a gun is that I fear I might use it. I feel the same way about motorcycles. I would be that guy going 150 in traffic on a bike ending up as a spot on the highway. No thanks. I feel sorry for people who feel they need to own all kinds of guns to protect themselves from the government. lol. Or they own guns for the up coming end of the world or anarchy. Hunters don't need what they own to kill animals. A couple rifles will do. The concept of home protection is a joke. More people are killed or hurt in the name of friendly fire or accidents than actual protection. I also do not buy the bullshit that if they outlaw guns that only the criminals will have them. Chances are if you own a gun you are not going to have it on you or near you when you need it when a criminal comes into your world. 99% of all guns are pretty much useless. I don't have any numbers to support this statement, but I am pretty sure that way over 90% of all shoots fired (outside of hunting) are for all the wrong reason. Police should not carrying them on their person either. It only leads to more problems. Have them in the car if the situation calls for it, take it or them out.
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  #75  
Old 12-17-2012, 01:55 AM
Also since we have had gun laws in aus we don't have,gun shops like we used too they are all empty shops with all those four and,five year old children being killed you would think the. American government would take action why are they waiting because it will keep going and hasn't the American people had enough of all of theese shooting
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  #76  
Old 12-17-2012, 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bondgirl View Post
Also since we have had gun laws in aus we don't have,gun shops like we used too they are all empty shops with all those four and,five year old children being killed you would think the. American government would take action why are they waiting because it will keep going and hasn't the American people had enough of all of theese shooting
There are a few big reasons why they are not and can not do anything to get rid of guns.

1. The second Amendment in our Constitution allows people to own guns (arms). The Constitution is the basis of all our laws.

2. The gun lobby is too strong

3. Because most people feel the laws we have on the books work

4. Because a few nuts are not spoil it for everyone

5. It takes years and years for anything to get passed into law. Nothing as big as this is going to get changed quickly.
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  #77  
Old 12-17-2012, 02:18 AM
Well it is interesting how aus was able to change the law with all its red tape but you guys can't why can't congress gett together they seem to pass other things through quick if they need too
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  #78  
Old 12-17-2012, 02:25 AM
Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people and not a single shot was fired. He did it with crap he bought from a hardware store. Literally.
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  #79  
Old 12-17-2012, 06:21 AM
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Originally Posted by creekin111 View Post
Timothy McVeigh killed 168 people and not a single shot was fired. He did it with crap he bought from a hardware store. Literally.
Actually, no. He obtained a lot of the materials by stealing them or committing fraud. It took him from mid-1994 through early-95 to collect all of the materials and then 2 days to build the bomb. On top of that, in making the bomb, he put himself in possession of an unregistered destructive device, which is illegal.

Now with all of this in mind, the question comes up: If Timothy McVeigh had been able to walk down the street and by bombs legally, would he have killed more, less, or about the same amount of people?
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  #80  
Old 12-17-2012, 06:58 AM
I was watching the news tonight and Obama said gun culture needs to change since the killing of those.young children I hope this is action and not just words
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