Michael Moore's SiCKO

[someguy]

NOTE: STICK TO TALKING ABOUT THE MOVIE. These threads always go in the shitter when someone starts bashing Moore. We don't care. Go make a thread in the rant section about him if you want, this is about the film SiCKO. If someone wants to start up something stupid, be the better person and simply ignore it.

This is coming out in around 2 weeks, I just watched it. I gotta say, a big disappointment. It just came off like Moore was praising different countries constantly for the way they do things compared to America. The first half is really great, it's a pretty emotional look into the American health care system screwing over people unfairly. The problems start up once Moore makes it into the U.K. and France, he spends too much time showing how their health care system is better among other things (Moore totally has a crush on France). I think the movie is almost as polarizing as Fahrenheit 9/11 at a lot of points throughout the movie. Less time should have been spent on showing the red vs blue politics about it. I still liked the movie, I'd give it around a 7/10 but with a topic that everyone can relate to or support I was expecting a bit more to come out of it (the first half of the movie shows the potential he had, it's unfortunate he kind of ruined it in the second).

[Scarfather]

I think the reason Moore spent so much time on foreign countries' health care policies is to show systems America can aspire to.

I agree, he did get really mushy about France, but he was presenting some damn good reasons to feel that way.

[someguy]

Oh yeah, he was using them as a way to show what America should try to do. I just thought that he got pretty repetitive with it all.

And he went a bit silly with the Canadian health care. I've had first hand experience and the wait times are annoying. When I go to an emergency clinic I have to wait 3 to 4 hours in order to actually get a doctor (wait times are determined on how much of an emergency what you have is, but depending on what you have it can feel like an eternity). Personally though, I'd rather just sit around for a bit rather than go through the hell of health insurance and whatnot. It's just a slight annoyance to me.

[outsyder]

I'll be interested to see just how accurately (or not) he portrays the Canadian health care system. Supposedly, this movie is his most objective one yet.

[Scorpio24]

Micheal Moore is a fat prick who's anti Republican and anti bush screw this thread....




Ok that should save about 15 people posting here. Onto the film itself...


I've always loved Moore's films for better or for worse. Personaly I thought Farenight 9/11 was a brilliant if not quite sqewered look at America, Bush and the policies and things that go with it.

The thing that puts me off about watching this film slightly is the way he goes to other countries as a pre-cursor for what American health service should be and only report what he wants. (As usual some would say)

I'm not sure on Canadian Helath servie but the UK health service isn't in exactly supreme state. Much like Someguy said about Canada the same applies here. Waiting lists in A&E are shocking. Not 2 months ago we had to ruch a friend of mine to A&E with very bad chest pains. That was about 11.00 pm. We finaly got a qualified doctor to see him at 3.00 am. On top of that they sent him home with just pain killers. All the while he was still in quite a bit of pain. We even wrote to the local paper about the shit care he had.

Not to mention the problems with MRSA and dirtyness on hospital wards. My girlfriend works in Heamotology department and she is scared stiff that if she had to go into hospital for somehting she wouldn't come back out because the hospital is teaming with disease.

Point is i'm fairly sure Moore's is not reporting back on those facts. I'm assuming of course as i haven't seen the film yet and maybe somebody can confirm or correct me on that?

I genuinely like watching Moore's films and find them very interseting but they are all tainted with extreme bias. He's also very vain I find and very self important. Me and my Gf both were very close to him in his opening of F9/11 in Cannes. He seemed to be loving the attention he got just a little to much for my liking. Maybe i'm being harsh on him there though. It just adds to the feeling of how much he cares about his subject at hand and how much of it is just for his personal gain.

For the reason that I feel his veiw won't be an honest appraisal, i'll probably skip this and catch it on DVD.

[Cronos]

i thought it was really good

[echo_bravo]

Originally posted by someguy
[B]
I gotta say, a big disappointment. It just came off like Moore was praising different countries constantly for the way they do things compared to America. .

Ummm thats all he did in his other films LOL.

[someguy]

Farenheit 9/11 did not focus much on other countries, while Bowling for Columbine stayed kind of brief about it compared to this. Things got really overbearing towards the end also.

Scorpio, if you want to know I'll tell you about the UK health care system and how it's portrayed. He starts by going to the pharmacy and getting amazed that the drugs cost around 10 dollars American no matter what, and those under 16/over 60 pay nothing. He then went to a hospital looking around, and kept talking to people there who laughed at him when he asked about their health insurance and how much it cost (another thing that 'amazed' him was a cashier at the hospital who gives money back to people for transportation fees rather than taking money). He interviewed a doctor who tells him about how he gets a large paycheck from the government (he drives a sports car and lives in an expensive home, blah blah blah) and is paid more when he helps patients.

I understand what Moore is doing with the coverage of the other countries, I'm just not a fan of how he's going about it. I would say Canada's system is much better than the United States right now, but it's portrayed as being perfect which it hardly is. The threat of bringing back privatized health care in Canada is usually around (I don't think it'll happen though). Another thing that irked me was that there is no coverage on countries that use a two tiered system rather than strictly universal or privatized. I think Sweden is a country that has both systems in place. I would have liked to know more about that.

[Dr.Frankenstein]

I'll admit I'm no fan of Michael Moore...but..but ...but! Health Care in the USA and all whom are concerned with its operations needs a kick in the ass by someone ballsy like Michael Moore...gotta tip my hat to this effort at least....Lets hope it shakes the Health Care system up and the American people as well for the better of the systems future to serve us all fairly this time....but I won't hold my breath for it.

[Digifruitella]

saw it yesterday, greatly put together, eye opening, should get people off his back after his last doc.

[Badbird]

I've loved all his movies.

He said in an interview that a lot of people point out that the Canadian health care system isn't perfect, but when ever he asked if they want to trade with the US version, no one wanted to.

It may not be perfect, but at least you have something up there. I just spent seven years without any coverage because it was just too expensive. Lucky for me I was never sick.

We are one of the richest countries in the world and we can't even take care of our own people. Ridiculous.

[BananaDancer]

Originally posted by Dr.Frankenstein
I'll admit I'm no fan of Michael Moore...but..but ...but! Health Care in the USA and all whom are concerned with its operations needs a kick in the ass by someone ballsy like Michael Moore...gotta tip my hat to this effort at least....Lets hope it shakes the Health Care system up and the American people as well for the better of the systems future to serve us all fairly this time....but I won't hold my breath for it.

I totally agree with you about healthcare in the United States. Even for someone who doesn't like Moore, one still has to agree that it is time for a change when it comes to healthcare here.

[castlesave]

i havent seen this movie. does moore at all talk about how these other countries are swimming in terrible debt from thier health care systems and they are desperately trying to adopt one like America's? i gave this guy a shot, but i simply cant take the out and out lies he thinks he can just use to further his cause. F911 made me absolutely sick when i saw the things he was saying that were later proven to be just pure fabrication. its scary to think that hes influencing people this way.

[someguy]

Originally posted by castlesave
does moore at all talk about how these other countries are swimming in terrible debt from thier health care systems and they are desperately trying to adopt one like America's?

What? I'm in Canada and we're not swimming in debt over the health care system. We aren't desperately trying to adopt a privatized one either, the farthest we'll ever go is a two tiered but even that is shot down repeatedly in order to keep universal health care. Maybe Scorpio can also elaborate on the UK and if they are in a terrible debt over all of it.

[Cronos]

Originally posted by castlesave
does moore at all talk about how these other countries are swimming in terrible debt from thier health care systems and they are desperately trying to adopt one like America's?

no because they aren't...at least the UK isn't

[castlesave]

not trying to make this a politcal debate, but Canada, the UK and France have all tried passing legislation to move toward privitized health care. They cant because of the shock it would impose on its people. you have to pay for it with taxes, usually the way they avoid raising taxes to huge levels, is to divert it away from other programs. typically, its medical research that loses out. businesses then have their payroll taxes raised to help cover cost becuase on average, they fed, state, and local governments only pick up 64% of the cost. The wait to see government employed doctors in the UK is very long compared to Privitzed countries. Malpractice suits are drawn out because the doctors are on the government payroll. the list of drugs that dont get paid for by the government is HUGE and includes the most effective cancer drugs.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/h...d.html#britain

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/h...ed.html#canada

again, not trying to be politcal, but the movie is and i want to treat it as a movie. a very powerful one because its attempting to persuade people to support certain politcal views. im all for what moore is doing, i just dont agree with how he does things. he has been exposed as an liar time and time again and he wont answer to any of them. the guy made a movie about companies moving out of the US and THEN PROMPTLY MOVED HIS OPERATIONS TO CANADA. he made a film about the problems that American auto manufacuters are having WHILE HES DRIVING A FORIEGN CAR!!

[castlesave]

Originally posted by someguy
What? I'm in Canada and we're not swimming in debt over the health care system. We aren't desperately trying to adopt a privatized one either, the farthest we'll ever go is a two tiered but even that is shot down repeatedly in order to keep universal health care. Maybe Scorpio can also elaborate on the UK and if they are in a terrible debt over all of it.

I live in Buffalo and I play hockey with a bunch of Canadiens. many of them have told me they hate the health care system there because they cant afford to wait sometimes. they actually have crossed the border to get some forms of treatment.

[CuatroDiablos]

I saw it and shook my fist 200 times , powerful stuff...and this movie is about people that have Health Care but still get screwed , some cases shown here are seriously fucked up. It's all about greed here in the USA and not about debt , we waste so much money on weapons and the military but we can't do it for health reasons .....I know I wont be living here long since right now I can't afford more than what I pay for Insurance and i sure don't want to get cancer or another serious illness here , that means I would die real fast.

I would wait 6 hours to get Medical attention in canada instead of getting a 6,000 dollar bill from a hospital here.

[castlesave]

most countries spend more money on their military than on healthcare. you'll spend 6000 on the tax over your lifetime to cover your cancer treatment in a national healthcare system. way way more in fact. and it will be months rather than hours that you will be waiting.

[echo_bravo]

Everyone knows Mexico has the best health care system. You get any drug for ridiculously cheap prices on the streets of Tijuana.

[castlesave]

Originally posted by echo_bravo
Everyone knows Mexico has the best health care system. You get any drug for ridiculously cheap prices on the streets of Tijuana.

hahaha HAHAHA

[castlesave]

im reading now about how the Cubans are angry with Michael Moore because he showed Private hospitals and tourist hospitals and said they were public. they're pissed because the public hospitals are horrible and they think this movie will ruin the fight to fix their real hospitals

[someguy]

Originally posted by castlesave
not trying to make this a politcal debate, but Canada, the UK and France have all tried passing legislation to move toward privitized health care. They cant because of the shock it would impose on its people. you have to pay for it with taxes, usually the way they avoid raising taxes to huge levels, is to divert it away from other programs. typically, its medical research that loses out. businesses then have their payroll taxes raised to help cover cost becuase on average, they fed, state, and local governments only pick up 64% of the cost. The wait to see government employed doctors in the UK is very long compared to Privitzed countries. Malpractice suits are drawn out because the doctors are on the government payroll. the list of drugs that dont get paid for by the government is HUGE and includes the most effective cancer drugs.

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/h...d.html#britain

http://www.liberty-page.com/issues/h...ed.html#canada

The links you gave are HEAVILY biased towards privatized health care. Yes, people will wait with a universal health care system but this is known. That's the reason for why people choose privatized health care, since there is no wait. The problem is that you need the $$$ in order to get your surgery done. Not a lot of people have that money, and the insurance companies will try as much as possible to deny your surgery because it won't help them make a profit. If given the choice, I would rather take the wait and get my surgery done rather than get it immediately and be financially crippled for the rest of my life.

That link about Canada mentions that privatized health care got shut down by the courts, and you say that money is lost on things like medical research. Try this link

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/

In the end, they agreed on several improvements:

* $16-billion, five-year Health Reform Fund for primary care, home care and catastrophic drug coverage
* $13.5 billion in new federal funding to the provinces over three years
* $2.5 billion cash infusion for 2003
* $600 million for information technology
* $500 million for research

...

Among the key parts of the agreement:

* Ensuring stable, predictable long-term funding.
* Implementing a National Waiting Times Reduction.
* Creating a National Home Care Program.
* Developing a national strategy for prescription drug care.
* Respecting the Canada Health Act.

So obviously money is being given to things like medical research. The taxes are not as crippling as people may think (I'll try to find the link, but I remember reading that the average American pays more for health care than a Canadian/UK/French person does). I can't comment too much on the pharmaceutical companies in Canada though since I don't know too much about it unfortunately.

again, not trying to be politcal, but the movie is and i want to treat it as a movie. a very powerful one because its attempting to persuade people to support certain politcal views. iwont answer to any of them. the guy made a movie about comm all for what moore is doing, i just dont agree with how he does things. he has been exposed as an liar time and time again and he panies moving out of the US and THEN PROMPTLY MOVED HIS OPERATIONS TO CANADA. he made a film about the problems that American auto manufacuters are having WHILE HES DRIVING A FORIEGN CAR!!

I don't care. We don't care. This is not what the thread is about. We are not discussing about Moore as a filmmaker, it is about the movie. I'd appreciate it if you ended this stuff so the thread won't go down the hole.

[castlesave]

very well, i will not retort except to say this:

this is a documentary by a man whos previous documentaries have been shown to contain lies on top of lies and film editing that would make you sick if you saw it. this isnt a fictional movie, this a widely disstributed "documentary" with the intentions of persuading people on a big issue. Moore and any other film maker should be allowed the same forum, but this man is a proven liar. their needs to be accountability for people who present these films as facts. EVERYTHING this man says should be taken with a huge grain of salt. this isnt a person making a movie with some enuendo for government, there can be some very very very serious consequences for what he is doing.

[someguy]

You basically repeated what I asked you to stop saying so the thread wouldn't be derailed.

[castlesave]

i guess im just not understanding what it is you want to disscuss. the casting?? its a documentary, the subject matter and creator are the only things that you can really talk about.

[Tuukka]

Originally posted by someguy
Another thing that irked me was that there is no coverage on countries that use a two tiered system rather than strictly universal or privatized. I think Sweden is a country that has both systems in place. I would have liked to know more about that.

Are you saying that countries like Canada and UK don't have private section at all??? That sounds like a pretty dumb system to me??? I mean for surely rich people use private doctors and hospitals?

Here in Finland we have the both the universal system and privatized one. I don't know how it compares to Sweden, but my guess is that it's pretty much identical. Finland and Sweden are like sister countries in most aspects, especially in politically and in terms of how the society is built.

The good thing about universal system is that it's cheap, the bad thing is that it takes a lot of time.

The bad thing about private hospitals is that they are expensive, but luckily they are also fast. And you do get better service, because the doctors are better trained, better paid, and they have less work stress.

I use exlusively private services, because I can afford it. When I was younger and I had less money, I used exclusively public healthcare. If I use private sector, I still get some money from the public healthcare to cover the expenses, but generally it's maybe 3 times more expensive to use the private sector - At least when you deal with basic stuff, and not with extremely expensive surgeries etc.

The medicine prizes are of course the same for everyone.

[someguy]

There are a few private medical centres in Canada that are operating Tuukka, but it is kind of ridiculous. I was reading a magazine article and it cost over $1000 to just get referred to another specialist.

[Digifruitella]

so, castlesave, are you defending the american healthcare?

[therealjohng]

I liked the movie. Like someguy said, it's disappointing considering how strong the movie opens. But it's decent none the less.

[castlesave]

Originally posted by Digifruitella
so, castlesave, are you defending the american healthcare?

where did i do that? though i do prefer a privitzed system, it has its flaws. but the pros def. out weigh the cons. The US has been responsible for nearly 60% of all new drugs/medications since the 70s. due mostly to the money we devote to research. our hospitals and doctor facilities are held to a huge government standard. virtually no wait. the fact that our doctors and hospitals are legally bound to help a patient even if they can not pay. if we (Americans) divert that money into paying for a system that is far far from perfect (France 15.5 billion bucks in debt despite huge tax increases for businesses and citizens, 900,000 people in the UK waiting to get admission to national hospitals, and the 50,000 surgeries that were cancelled last year, thousands who died in Canada while waiting for surgery last year) then we wouldnt cure any problems, we would just create different ones. Moore loves to point out that there are 40 million people in the US without health care. what hes not saying is that these are people who (mostly) are waiting for the application process or have not applied to the many cheap or free government programs of health care (medicaide, medicare). also interesting to note that its been sited that the 40 million figure includes illegal aliens!! my point is that Michael Moore is creating propoganda because he has an agenda against a certain politcal party and a certain elected official. this isnt just a movie like Batman or Shrek. Moore's films are used in classrooms in the US!!!! despite the fact that so much of what he says are proven lies. I love my country and i have a deep DEEP disstain for anyone who is trying to manipulate its people.

[Badbird]

Originally posted by castlesave
very well, i will not retort except to say this:

this is a documentary by a man whos previous documentaries have been shown to contain lies on top of lies and film editing that would make you sick if you saw it. this isnt a fictional movie, this a widely disstributed "documentary" with the intentions of persuading people on a big issue. Moore and any other film maker should be allowed the same forum, but this man is a proven liar.

Moore has offered a $10,000 reward for anyone who can prove there was an outright lie and/or factual error in Fahreinheit 9/11. So far no one has collected.

The "Michael Moore is a big fat liar" schtick is pretty old. It's just something that gets trotted out with no real evidence or back up. The one list of supposed "159 lies in F9/11" that was floating around back when the movie came out was pretty weak. Most everything on that list was due to a failure to comprehend sarcasm, which Moore uses a great deal.

He knows he is goingto be a huge target and his team researches their shit.

It's kinda like when people say 50% of marriages end in divorce - well, that's not true. It's more like 42% right now, but the 50% number in ingraned in everyone's mind, so they just keep saying it and no one bothers to correct them.

[thedudeman69]

If you introduce major aspects of socialist medicine into a country like the USA, heavily, then you will make the medicine worthless. You'll get medicine, but it will be shitty. Also, I am downloading a screener, and I will watch this with a open mind, because I actually like some of Moore's movies, they make good points, but then they go downhill after the first hour or so. Also, strangely one of Fox(Faux) News contributors gave it a decent review.

[someguy]

Originally posted by Badbird
Response to Moore bashing from castlesave

I feel like a babysitter around here. Please don't derail the thread. We're having a good discussion on different health care aspects, people are just going to ruin it by arguing over Moore and his 'credibility.' Just take it up in PMs or go make a thread in politics.

dudeman, from what I have seen America's medicine/pharmaceutical prescription system is pretty fucked up. I think that there has to be some control over what's going on in order to make it a bit more fair for everyone.

[castlesave]

Originally posted by Badbird
Moore has offered a $10,000 reward for anyone who can prove there was an outright lie and/or factual error in Fahreinheit 9/11. So far no one has collected.

The "Michael Moore is a big fat liar" schtick is pretty old. It's just something that gets trotted out with no real evidence or back up. The one list of supposed "159 lies in F9/11" that was floating around back when the movie came out was pretty weak. Most everything on that list was due to a failure to comprehend sarcasm, which Moore uses a great deal.

He knows he is goingto be a huge target and his team researches their shit.

It's kinda like when people say 50% of marriages end in divorce - well, that's not true. It's more like 42% right now, but the 50% number in ingraned in everyone's mind, so they just keep saying it and no one bothers to correct them.

what about the kid that came back from Afghanastan (i think), who came out after F9/11 said that his interviewed was chopped up to make him look like hes against the war when he was actually trying like hell to get back. or the Senator (i cant recall which one) who was asked if he would send his kids to Iraq and when he said he already had a son over there, Moore cut that out. those are absolute proven lies. the full video he took of the senator surfaced on the internet and magically, it wasnt in its entireity in the movie. i guess Moore can just cut me a check.

[someguy]

castlesave, take it in PMs. I think I've said this like, SIX times now but the thread isn't about this. If you want to talk about the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY or the MOVIE go ahead.

[thedudeman69]

Originally posted by someguy
castlesave, take it in PMs. I think I've said this like, SIX times now but the thread isn't about this. If you want to talk about the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY or the MOVIE go ahead.

Why did you start a political thread if you thought it wouldn't get political?

[castlesave]

Originally posted by someguy
castlesave, take it in PMs. I think I've said this like, SIX times now but the thread isn't about this. If you want to talk about the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY or the MOVIE go ahead.

ive been talking about both.

[CyclicNightmare]

Originally posted by someguy
castlesave, take it in PMs. I think I've said this like, SIX times now but the thread isn't about this. If you want to talk about the HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY or the MOVIE go ahead.

I forgot this was JoBlo's Health Care Industry Club. My mistake.

[MisterChristian]

Thousands who died in Canada while waiting for surgery last year

Think I missed this on the news Somehow I do not think so.