#41  
Old 04-10-2010, 10:24 AM
Thanks a lot, starcat. I'm gonna have a huge red palm print on my forehead for days thanks to your posts in this thread. Thanks a lot...
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  #42  
Old 04-10-2010, 10:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post
In noway am I saying girls shouldnt wear hot clothes... im not saying hot revealing clothes causes girls to get raped... the biggest portion of men would never rape a girl, but a few just aint wired right and they do, and often they are going to choose the girl wearing hotter items of clothes... im sorry if thats so offensive to you, but I really believe that to be true. But i'm not saying girls shouldnt not be able to wear anything they want, that would be like saying because there is a small chance I could get in a car wreck I should never drive again.
This part is very naive. You dont understand much about the psychology of rape. Often, it's about power and rapists pick victims they deem as "weak." Women wearing revealing clothing would be considered empowered; women wearing nothing at all would be considered even more empowered, and a rapist would likely steer clear.

In addition, very VERY few rapes occur between two strangers. People dont just walk down the street and rape someone during lunch in the bushes. More often than not, rapes occur between two people who know each other, usually boyfriend/girlfriend, or other close acquaintances.
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  #43  
Old 04-10-2010, 12:05 PM
Quote:
To be insensitive and use my own female friends as an example, I know about six women who have been raped (lets not even include sexual assault/harrassment). I also have a few female Muslim friends, I have spent two weeks in a Muslim country and I have seen no evidence of disrespect towards 'their women' in the way that I have seen disrespect towards 'ours'...of course I know this doesn't mean disrespect doesn't occur in their culture.
I've never spent time in an Islamic country. You have more first-hand experience.
There's a chance we were pointing out different things and I misconstrued you and ran with it. The bit that tipped me off was ...and I have seen no evidence of disrespect towards 'their women' in the way that I have seen disrespect towards 'ours'. You could be speaking about the way men turn to ogle at women or the way men crudely refer to women in their presence or a variety of other things, when I'm speaking specifically about violent sexual assaults and sexual abuses, which do not usually occur out in the open. The aside about the head to toe veiling, nay sheathing, of women, as though their body parts and skin were dangerous blades in need of capping (imo precisely the ideology, rationalized around ideas about being humble and pure, which some women may have adopted genuinely and I'm no one to judge if they have), invalidats the suggestion that clothing has enough say on abuses suffered. It has a say on titillation, for sure, but... While I do not want to go anywhere too beside the topic of this thread and too deep into potentially controversial judgments about religion and social customs, Muslim women in these underdeveloped Islamic communities are by and large second class citizens and that is the reason they suffer abuses and that is symbolized by these manners of dress because these manners of dress were dictated by men, not women, which is the whole point and thumbs down against any suggestion that men ought to dictate how women dress, much less any suggestion that the more clothes women wear and the more they cover the less likely they are to be victims.

It's about women tailoring themselves to accommodate men... Not in a sense of community, but in the disrespect of a lower gender. If ever women do choose to dress themselves head to toe, for their own reasons, of their own powers, I'm no one to judge because they are doing roughly the equivalent of blacks in americaland adopting negro and trying to overtake its usage and connotations. But as it stands now the clothing is still a symbol of their lower status and as it stands now their clothing does not prevent them from being the victims because they are still victims, as their clothing is a representation of their victimhood, like any manner of clothing that is dictated for you to wear by another who has a higher status. In other, quicker words, there's no solving a victimhood by further accentuating the victim as a victim.

...which is a bit of a blowhard conclusion to draw from a thread about women marching topless, but starcat's pov on this subject made me urgh enough to build up this kind of scale and context. Anyways. If this conversation isn't off base (mods?) I'll be sure to post as many stats as I can before I continue any farther, since I would otherwise be repeating the same information some of you might not believe. And I'll do my best to elaborate on as many stats as I can, since we all know and doubt the legitimacy of statistics.

Last edited by Shinigami; 04-10-2010 at 12:07 PM..
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  #44  
Old 04-10-2010, 06:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
This part is very naive. You dont understand much about the psychology of rape. Often, it's about power and rapists pick victims they deem as "weak." Women wearing revealing clothing would be considered empowered; women wearing nothing at all would be considered even more empowered, and a rapist would likely steer clear.

In addition, very VERY few rapes occur between two strangers. People dont just walk down the street and rape someone during lunch in the bushes. More often than not, rapes occur between two people who know each other, usually boyfriend/girlfriend, or other close acquaintances.
Thats cool man, you can think I am naive. I do know that power trips are the main reason for rape. I wasnt listing all the reasons of rape, I never said that was the main reason of rape. All I said was in a nutshell... if girls have their boobs hangin out some loose wired horny neanderthal could snap.

And Shinigami... exactly what did I say to make you so urghh... cause I dont think I said a damn thing you think I did... even after many rereadings to make sure I didnt word anything wrong.
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  #45  
Old 04-10-2010, 06:45 PM
^I read your post as not just suggesting that women having their boobs out might be distracting for men (fine whatever), but also breezily insinuating that distraction as the cause of some mentioned sexual violence case and in turn underlining most of the post with that sentiment (err) and also not just pointing out that possible behavior but accepting it like boys will be boys (urgh). A combination of those things did not agree with me for reasons explained and tooted about the thread.

But you don't have to justify yourself to me and I'm open, as usual, to the idea that I misunderstood. There's a topic and argument here regardless.

Last edited by Shinigami; 04-10-2010 at 06:47 PM..
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  #46  
Old 04-10-2010, 08:02 PM
Im cool too dude... I honestly have no beef with ya. I still cant figure out what I said to make you think it, but there is not one fiber in my strand that thinks its acceptible behavior, or boys will be boys. The only boys will be boys is alot of boys will get erections when they see bare boobs... it cannot be helped... as long as its kept in their pants its just an embarrasing situation and dont see how they could be in trouble for it though...
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  #47  
Old 04-13-2010, 01:19 PM
To make a quick response so you know I didn't ignore your post; I see your point about the second class citizen thing and its a good one. I would say that despite the fact that this dress is chosen by men, we could argue that the 'other' form of dress that our society accepts is of the intention to please men too, so there isn't too much of a difference when it comes to the abuse of women in the two cultures as we might assume there is.

However I think the issues we're gravitating towards would involve exploring religion and society - to the extent that is probably done better face-to-face than online.
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  #48  
Old 04-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by starcat View Post
Im cool too dude... I honestly have no beef with ya. I still cant figure out what I said to make you think it, but there is not one fiber in my strand that thinks its acceptible behavior, or boys will be boys. The only boys will be boys is alot of boys will get erections when they see bare boobs... it cannot be helped... as long as its kept in their pants its just an embarrasing situation and dont see how they could be in trouble for it though...
You have an embarrassing view of men.
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  #49  
Old 04-13-2010, 02:30 PM
Natty-
Yeah I think everybody involved said what they wanted to say. Schmoes be' spent.

The good news is that now I don't have to run down my statistics.
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  #50  
Old 04-13-2010, 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
You have an embarrassing view of men.
He did say boys.
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