NFL OFFSEASON DISCUSSION THREAD!

[Rated R]

Okay, the NFL Draft is just around the corner and the Bengals are getting ready to doom yet another promising young Quarterback, but who will they choose to ruin? Carson Palmer? That's my bet, what do you think?


Me being a Dolphins fan, I was glad to see the trade for Seau, but we need more. Now Ray Lucas is going to be released so we can court Brian Griese away from washing Grebdron's car. I think he needs a change of scenery, and in Miami, like Ricky Williams will excell.


I would go so far and predict who I think will win each division, but it's a tad bit early for that. I want to know how each of your faveourite teams and least favourite teams are shaping up, what is the likely outcome...you Bengals and Lions fans already know your fate...anyway cheers, and talk up the NFL offseason...I can't wait for kickoff.

[Grebdron]

You;re right about Palmer going to Cinci. I haven't kept up with much else, but will post more when I read up.

Griese's a good holder for extra points. You guys hsould get alot of value out of him.

[MixMasterMoose]

The Draft is only a few days awawy. Huzzah.

I think the Miami trade for Seau was a good trade per say but they overpaid (14 over 4 years) for a player who is getting on in the years and who takes way too many chances.

Don't understand Boston signing with the Chargers. I can't see him fitting well into their system. I give him 7 games before he starts to voice his complaints.

I like all of Buffalos moves with the exception of Sam Adams. Getting Spikes was a steal. That man can play.

Still not sure what to make of the Broncos signing Plummer. I have an odd feeling this is going to turn out to be a bust.

Didn't like the signing of Hugh Douglas by Jacksonville. The deal is back loaded (665,000 is 03 with increases following upto a maximum of 6.0 in 06 and 07) I think they will live to regret this decision. He is 31 (Or around there) and most DE that play his style slow down fairly quick around this age.

Washington: Overpayed wayyyyy to much for Coles. The role which they signed Morton for isn't the best one he is suited for. I think the jury is still out on Candidate. Randy Thomas was an excellent pick-up.

Arizona: Start scouting nexts year draft.

and My Team!

Vikings: Claiborne was a great pick up IF he keeps his weight under check. He showed up around 250 in Minnesota (correct me if I'm wrong) which is closer to his playing weight. Walker was a solid pickup as well as Rosenthal. Dunno what to think about Lyons. Don't really care much for Irvin.

As for my prediction: The Vikings finish 10-6 and make it into the playoffs.

I hope the fudge packers get killed this year. If not I know they will when they visit us. Farve has a tough time in domes.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by MixMasterMoose
As for my prediction: The Vikings finish 10-6 and make it into the playoffs.

That's a bold prediction. They have alot of talent, but without Moss giving 100%, they're fucked. And Moss hasn't given 100% since his rookie year. It seems the only thing keeping him steady the first year was Cris. And with Cris gone, Randy's gone to hell. Culpeeper is good, but can't do it himself.

[Cunning Visions]

I'm a Dolphins fan also and I have to admit...our offensive line worries me. Theres just not enough depth and it seems a key o. line player ALWAYS goes down with an injury during the season. Hopefully we will use the draft or whoevers left in free agency to get one.

As for the Bengals well, they hired a new coach!!...again
they promised changes this season!!...again
they will be lucky to win 2 games!!...again

The team to look out for this season is Buffalo. They did EXTREMELY well this offseason.

[horrorfreak13]

the Bungles will win 1 game no matter what they did in the off season.

The NFL opener has my Redskins with former Jets Leverneus Coles and Chad Morton against their former team now get a QB.

Speaking of the draft my Redskins don't have a first round pick because the Jets have it, but we'll see when the season starts when my Redskins go far at least farther than last year.

[MarkItZero]

I think it would be a big mistake for the Bungles to pick Carson Palmer. I dont think he is nearly as good as advertised. He won the heisman essentially on the strength of one game. His first three years in college he threw almost as many picks as TDs. it wasnt until the last six games of his career that he really turned it on. I'm not saying he wont develop into a good NFL QB, but I definately dont think he is a superstar worthy of a #1 pick.

Instead, the Bungles should pick for defense. With some of the defensive talent the have assembled, plus the coach's expertise, they could have a pretty potent defensive lineup, that would keep them in a lot of games. Terrence Newman would be a great pick for them in my opinion.

I'm glad to see that the Packers are having a bad offseason. They have lost a lot of depth and some key defensive players. Which should make it easier for the Bears to win the division this year.

Thats right, MixMaster. The Bears, not the Viqueens will be next year's NFC North champs. The best you can hope for from Moss and Co is to battle the Lions for last place.

[Cunning Visions]

he he he...Viqueens Why didn't I think of that?!!

[MixMasterMoose]

Originally posted by Grebdron
That's a bold prediction. They have alot of talent, but without Moss giving 100%, they're fucked. And Moss hasn't given 100% since his rookie year. It seems the only thing keeping him steady the first year was Cris. And with Cris gone, Randy's gone to hell. Culpeeper is good, but can't do it himself.

Meh, I said the same thing last year (10-6 + playoffs). I think its a stretch this year but if all things go well (and they never do) we could end up there.

MarkItZero: Thanks. I needed that. I haven't laughed that hard in awhile . Seriously though: As far as I'm concerned you have the best Mac/Mike backer in the league and one of the best d's. But you have question marks at two very important positions, QB and RB. I would really like to see the Anthony Thomas become a force again (he was one of my favorite college players) but I don't think it will happen. And you have Slash. Dear God. Start Praying. Add to that two inexperienced tackles and disaster should soon follow. But than again after their past two seasons.... who knows.

[MixMasterMoose]

So Palmer and Bengals finalized a contract. Poor Poor Palmer.


In other news: The Packers claimered Crouch off of waivers and will give him a shot to play QB.

[Moviefan1234]

The Bills look to be going after a DE, which I think is wise. Hopefully they can draft Michael Haynes from Penn State. There are rumors that they may be tempted to take Kyle Boller if he's available though.

[Munson]

Originally posted by MarkItZero
He won the heisman essentially on the strength of one game. His first three years in college he threw almost as many picks as TDs. it wasnt until the last six games of his career that he really turned it on.

I think this is going overboard a little bit. Palmer had a very good senior year. The first half of USC's schedule was brutal last year. He still put up very good numbers the first half of the season. Sure his second half numbers were slightly better but the competition was much less also.

[Rated R]

The Giants are looking to move Ron Dayne and a draft pick to a higher pick so they can draft a defensive lineman. I personally don't think anyone will bite. So far Dayne has been very mediocre, and that is being complimentary. He is a bust and will NEVER be a star back. Sorry, it just won't happen. If someone decides to risk him, it'll be a mistake.

[PapaJupe2k]

Clock runs out on Vikings in the draft. hehehehe. I don't think Tice liked Berman and Denny Green making fun of him for it. Draft a personality Tice would ya.

[Munson]

Incredible. The Ravens get Suggs and Boller in the first round. Ozzie Newsome is the man.

[Moviefan1234]

My Bills snag Mr. McGahee. Let's hope he pans out...

[MixMasterMoose]

Originally posted by Moviefan1234
My Bills snag Mr. McGahee. Let's hope he pans out...

I don't understand why the Bills took MaGahee. They already have Travis Henry and Olindas Gary.

What would the draft be with out a Vikings Gaff? God if last years draft wasn't bad enough..

[Moviefan1234]

Originally posted by MixMasterMoose
I don't understand why the Bills took MaGahee. They already have Travis Henry and Olindas Gary.

Henry had 11 fumbles last year and if he can't fix that problem he will lose playing time. Olandis Gary is only a backup RB. If McGahee comes back from this injury he has the potential to be one of the greats, he if doesn't he'll be a bust. They've had a great free agency and I guess they feel he'll come back. I, for one, think it was a wise gamble. There wasn't one single player they really wanted, so why not take a chance? Especially with one of the best college running backs in the last 5 years.

[MixMasterMoose]

Originally posted by Moviefan1234
Henry had 11 fumbles last year and if he can't fix that problem he will lose playing time. Olandis Gary is only a backup RB. If McGahee comes back from this injury he has the potential to be one of the greats, he if doesn't he'll be a bust. They've had a great free agency and I guess they feel he'll come back. I, for one, think it was a wise gamble. There wasn't one single player they really wanted, so why not take a chance? Especially with one of the best college running backs in the last 5 years.

So you are going to pay a player first round money to sit on the bench for around a year? Any way you look at it this choice is a poor decision.

While Henry did have 11 fumbles he also had 1438 yards rushing, 302 yards receiving and 14 touchdowns not to mention that he signed an extension through 2005. Those totals amount to 5th in the league in rushing and 5th best season performance total in Bill history.

I agree that McGahee is a special talent but Buffalo should have used this pick on someone else.

[MarkItZero]

It confused me that the Bills took Mcgahee, since they had so many other gaping holes, however I think it was foolish for so many other teams to pass him up. This guy is gonna be a real force in the NFL.

The fuckin Bears fucked up. But I dont mind, at least this will get Juaronstadt fired sooner.

[Cunning Visions]

...This was me after seeing who the Dolphins drafted

[Grebdron]

I would have let McGahee drop to the 3d or 4th round. Denver has proven that you can find quality running backs late. Just like my Raiders did, picking up Huggy Bear, Jr. (Justin Fargas) in the later rounds. I'm happy with our draft.

[Moviefan1234]

Originally posted by MixMasterMoose
So you are going to pay a player first round money to sit on the bench for around a year? Any way you look at it this choice is a poor decision.

While Henry did have 11 fumbles he also had 1438 yards rushing, 302 yards receiving and 14 touchdowns not to mention that he signed an extension through 2005. Those totals amount to 5th in the league in rushing and 5th best season performance total in Bill history.

I agree that McGahee is a special talent but Buffalo should have used this pick on someone else.

I think this was a case of "too good to pass up," we'll see how it pans out.

[Kastman]

I like american football but its never on tv here so i cant keep updated, but who won the super bowl in the season just gone?

I hope it was the St. Louis Rams, coz thats the team i go for.

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Kastman
I like american football but its never on tv here so i cant keep updated, but who won the super bowl in the season just gone?

I hope it was the St. Louis Rams, coz thats the team i go for.

It was the Tampa Bay Buccaneers, who kicked the shit out of my Oakland Raiders.

The Rams missed the playoffs entirely.

[bmain77]

The Vikings- 10-6...Moss must plan in actually trying on about 55% of the plays


not that I have much room to talk being a Lions fan, though they'll be much improved this year. I really think 7-8 wins is not out of the question. Harrington and Rogers(even though he's a Spartan) will be tearing up defenses for years to come. Mariucci would be crazy not to open of the west coast offense some and take some deep shots next season. The o line is very solid and with a decent passing game going James Stewart could have the best season of his career even though he doesn't really fit into a west coast style offense. The only realy question mark on the team are the DB's and they should me much improved with the addition of Dre Bly and the youngsters getting another year under their belt. Plus I'm sure they'll still add another veteran after the June cuts.

Palmer got bust written all over him. I don't know what it is, but if I had to put money on it I'd definitly say he's going to do nothing in the league. He just has that look about him. The same look Ryan Leaf, Dan Mcgwire, and David Klingler had about them. It's sort of like the serial killer look. I can't put my finger on it, but serial killers have this aura about them just like NFL QB busts do.

Byron Leftwich is going to be the real deal. All you need to know about him is watch that footage of his players carrying up to the line on a broken leg. If I was GM and only saw that footage that'd be all I would need to see to draft him. The Bears and Bengles are going to regret the day they passed on him in a few years.

[PapaJupe2k]

Originally posted by bmain77
Harrington and Rogers(even though he's a Spartan)

Yeah, I've been meaning to ask you what you thought of the Charlie Rogers pick. I can see how he would kind of half ass it after the year the Spartans had last year. I saw him live at Kinnick Stadium last year, and he certainly didn't look like he was going 100% against what was one of the worst pass defenses in college football at the time.

Byron Leftwich is going to be the real deal. The Bears and Bengles are going to regret the day they passed on him in a few years.

I'm stumped as well as to why the Bears didn't take him. Trading down in order to get Haynes, who wasn't even projected as a first round pick? Jury's out on Grossman, who I am real skeptical of after the year he had last year at Florida, time will tell I guess.

[bmain77]

Oh I have my doubts when it comes to Rogers, but the guy has so much talent. I'm going to be optimistic as much as possible, but trust me I'll be the first that jumps off the bandwagon saying I told you so when it turns out he is Randy Moss Jr. I'm hoping Mariucci turns him into Terrell Owens Jr., someone who runs his mouth and does some dumb things, but plays his ass off on every down.

I really think part of the problem was that state was so horrible this year in addition to the Jeff Smoker scandel. Rogers was the sole person that teams had to fear when they were playing MSU. Smoker and the other QB's were locked on to him on every play so he had to deal with a lot of balls that probably shouldn't have been thrown his way.

But rogers does have some baggage. In high school his baby's mamma stabbed in with a fork collapsing a lung. He ran his mouth when Saban left for LSU saying things like he'd go to Michigan if they didn't hire Bobby Williams as head coach even though Michigan wouldn't take him. UM will not take a partial qualifier. And hell his good friend Jason RIchardson was picked up in Saginaw last night for domestic abuse. I'm surprised that hasn't hit ESPN yet. You can't forget that diluted sample stuff from the combine too.

I'm still going to be positive though. I really think there has been reciever this talented to come out since Randy Moss. Lets just hope Mariucci and Bobby Williams can keep him in line. It's going to be tough with him so close to the old neighborhood.

[MixMasterMoose]

Originally posted by bmain77
The Vikings- 10-6...Moss must plan in actually trying on about 55% of the plays

I don't understand how you can say this.
2002 stats:
Total Offense, NFL: Vikings #2
Total Offence, NFC: Vikings #1
Receiving, NFL: Randy Moss #2
Receiving, NFC: Randy Moss#1
Take into consideration that most people say that Randy had an 'Off' year (this can also be related to the fact that the Vikings lead the league in rushing). One hell of an off year if you ask me . Seems like the man is unfairly critized for not giving a full effort all the time. Kinda funny when you consider he ranks above so many other players who give a 'full effort' all the time. It blows my mind that so many people can say he is the source of the Vikings problems when the real problem is that the Vikings o-line is average at best (to quote Tice and his coaching staff) and a horrible, horrible d.


Randy Moss does not give a full effort in every play. Without a doubt. But there are VERY VERY few receivers that do.

[PapaJupe2k]

I can see what your saying Moose, but it's his attitude, not the numbers that are the problem. I don't think people blame him for all the Vikings problems. Believe me I hear about this everyday as this area is just oversaturated with Viking fans. I don't think they will ever get to that next level with him around because Culpepper and his teammates just rely on him waaaay too much to try to bail them out of every tough situation. The way Culpepper just locks on to him on the majority of the pass plays I think is more of a hindrence that a help. Sure he makes his share of spectacular plays, but there are more interceptions and incompletions that shouldn't have been thrown that outweigh those numbers by a long way.

Sure some receivers take plays off, but a man of his talent, who could possibly be the best ever shouldn't be doing that with as much frequency as he does. The Vikings have a lot of problems which start in the front office (see #7, I mean #9 draft pick ).

[MixMasterMoose]

Originally posted by PapaJupe2k
I can see what your saying Moose, but it's his attitude, not the numbers that are the problem. I don't think people blame him for all the Vikings problems. Believe me I hear about this everyday as this area is just oversaturated with Viking fans. I don't think they will ever get to that next level with him around because Culpepper and his teammates just rely on him waaaay too much to try to bail them out of every tough situation. The way Culpepper just locks on to him on the majority of the pass plays I think is more of a hindrence that a help. Sure he makes his share of spectacular plays, but there are more interceptions and incompletions that shouldn't have been thrown that outweigh those numbers by a long way.

Sure some receivers take plays off, but a man of his talent, who could possibly be the best ever shouldn't be doing that with as much frequency as he does. The Vikings have a lot of problems which start in the front office (see #7, I mean #9 draft pick ).

I agree with most of your statement but than again doesn't T.O. have the same attitude problem? Agreed that there is a heavily reliance on him but there should be ('who could possibly be the best ever'). Culpepper locking onto Moss is a issue that has to be addressed. There is no #2 reciever on the team at the moment which is part of the problem. Another aspect of Culpepper focusing solely on Moss was the Randy Ratio (when this was dropped Culpeppers effectivness went up). Thirdly is the lack of focus and mental prepation by Culpepper. Culpepper struggles with reading a d and when and who he should be throwing to (this can be cured by spending some time studying tape).

And holy shit...two years running...Anyone know where I can apply to work in the Viking war room cause apparently any fool can get a job there.

[bmain77]

Here is my deal with Moss. I will not deny that he isn't the best WR in football (though T. Owens is not far behind) and maybe the most talented player period. However it's his attitude. I'd take Owens any day over him because Owens plays his ass off on every play. He learned first hand from the best ever, Jerry Rice. Sure he says and does dumb things but notice his effort on the field has never been questioned. Moss on the other hand well we know all about him. If I was an offensive lineman on the Vikings I would have beaten the shit out of Moss the very next day in the lockerroom even if it meant my release from the team. All WR's take a play here and there, even Jerry Rice, that goes with the game on plays like runs the other way or if they are just a decoy or somethign on the the play. But to come out an say is plain wrong. Also it is noticeable on many plays when he doesn't put the effort into finishing off block and pass routes.

Like Barry Bonds and Allen Iverson he has this chip on his shoulder like everyone is out to get them, never having the brains to figure out why nobody likes them. Sometimes they say it might have to do with racism, which is rediculous. It's not just abot stats and performance. It boggles my mind why Iverson doesn't understand the uproar created about his statement about "practice only being practice...only the game matters....practice is no big deal etc..." It's about respect for the game and for your teamates.

[MixMasterMoose]

Originally posted by bmain77
However it's his attitude. I'd take Owens any day over him because Owens plays his ass off on every play. He learned first hand from the best ever, Jerry Rice. Sure he says and does dumb things but notice his effort on the field has never been questioned. Moss on the other hand well we know all about him. If I was an offensive lineman on the Vikings I would have beaten the shit out of Moss the very next day in the lockerroom even if it meant my release from the team. All WR's take a play here and there, even Jerry Rice, that goes with the game on plays like runs the other way or if they are just a decoy or somethign on the the play. But to come out an say is plain wrong. Also it is noticeable on many plays when he doesn't put the effort into finishing off block and pass routes.

I agree that you have a valid point with the exception of one area. I am going to assume when you say 'If I was an offensive lineman on the Vikings I would have beaten the shit out of Moss the very next day in the lockerroom even if it meant my release from the team' that it is in regard to the 'I play when I want to play' comment. What the majority of people don't realize is the context in which this comment was made.

Reporter: Does Cris Cater motivate you to play?
Moss: No, I play when I want to play.
(This isn't exact but it gets the jist of question/answer)

To me this means, I don't need anybody else to motivate me to play. I can do that myself. Unfortunately Moss has that chip on his shoulder so when further pressed about that issue he refused to back down or change it in any way (and the press didn't bother with the question asked only with 'I play when I want to play').

Owens does not play his ass off every play. No reciever does. Watch him on every play and you will being to notice that he does take plays off. It's a fact of life as much as the sun rises every morning. Although, T.O. does give an effort on more plays than Moss, with a doubt.

[Rated R]

There are a handful of WR's in the league that I like more than Moss. I wouldn't want Moss on my team and the reason's have been expressed enough in this thread that I don't need to reiterate. I will however say which WR's I would take over Moss in a heartbeat:

Oronde Gadsden - hardest worker on the Dolphins offense and I will be extremely disappointed if he goes elsewhere.

Eric Moulds - Sure, he's on the competition but he is the real deal, one of the best in the league and will be remembered as one of the best after he retires.

Keyshawn Johnson - When he needs to he puts up big plays and every game he improves in Tampa...hasn't quite hit his stride yet, and I'm not sure if he will, but the Bowl ring might inspire him.

Jerry Porter - The Jerry on Oakland who's play was a major reason why they made it to the big game. Sure he was their third receiver but this guy outshone both Rice and Brown in the playoffs.

Marvin Harrison - Obvious choice, but he deserves it when teammates Peyton Manning and Edgerrin James are fuckin off their games.

David Boston - Give him a QB! He'll put up great numbers.


I will post more later

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Rated R
Jerry Porter - The Jerry on Oakland who's play was a major reason why they made it to the big game. Sure he was their third receiver but this guy outshone both Rice and Brown in the playoffs.

An absolute star in the making. Great work ethic, ridiculous speed and size. I'm very happy we found him.

[bmain77]

Jerry Porter, David Boston, and Andre Johnson are all freaks of nature. I mean to be built like that and still have the flexibility and speed to move like they do is unreal. When Boston flexes his muscles I swear to god it looks like his bicep is about to burst. I'd love to see any of these guys line up and safety just once to see what kind of hit they could put on someone coming across the middle.

Yeah owens does take plays off, but not on running plays and screen passes to his side of the field. Have you seen the footage that brought all this stuff to a head. ESPN brook down film from a single play where Moss just let the DB's go buy him with one play resulting in Robert Smith nearly getting torn in half because Moss didn't feel like blocking anybody on that play.

Anyway you cut it Moss is a cancer to his team in the same way Barry Bonds and Allen Iverson (though I will say he has improved greatly this year) are. I'd bet money that if Moss went for any period of time Culpepper's stats would improve. Partly because he and the coaching staff wouldn't lock on to Moss, but also because of team chemistry reasons.

[Rated R]

Raiders have re-signed right guard Mo Collins to a multi-year deal. Details of the deal have not been announced.

Personally this affects me very little. And I don't know if Raider fans will even care. I mean he isn't great, he's a good guard matched on a great offensive line. He is surrounded by talent and he will be successful.


Second news article:

Yet another Ex-Cowboy charged, this time with assault! Erik Williams beat up his wife and was released on $7,500 bail. Here's the article as printed on Sportsline:

Erik Williams Beats Wife


No surprise really, if it had been say, Brett Favre or Joe Montana I would have been surprised...but nope, it was a former Cowboy, and they seem to have a knack for getting themselves in shit. At least it's not as ridiculous as Nate Newton and his marijuana dealings...idiot.

[Moviefan1234]

I'd love to know what goes through the minds of these Cowboys. Is it really worth it?

[Grebdron]

Originally posted by Moviefan1234
I'd love to know what goes through the minds of these Cowboys.

A 1/4 ounce of blow a day?

[MixMasterMoose]

Originally posted by Grebdron
A 1/4 ounce of blow a day?

Well that just made my day.


In other news Pat Summerall has called it quits.