#3641  
Old 06-18-2009, 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin View Post

honestly, my personal opinion is the death of a human, under any circumstance, is 1000000x worse than the death of thousands of dogs. But that's not the way the legal system works, so it is what it is.
Im not talking about the perspective of which life is more valuable (makes no difference to me, but ok) I'm talking about from the perspective of whos the worse criminal.

To me, anybody can get into an accident. And while drinking and driving is irresponsible and very, very dangerous/stupid, its not exactly done with "murderous intent"

What Vick did on the other hand was essentially the prolonged torture of an animal. If he had come by and electrocuted it for a few hours each day it would be about the same offense. That is prolonged and consistent evil, right there. More people need to understand that.
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  #3642  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
Let me see if I can count the number of ways youre wrong.

Manny got 50 becuae that drug is used to hide Performance enhancers. The fact its a female fert drug proves he was taking it to hide OTHER substances.

Donte wasn't over the legal limit. He registered that he had some alcohol in him, but he wasnt over the limit.

Vick deserves so much worse than he got. Which do you think is worse: An ACCIDENT in the dead of night where someone died, or months and months of pre-meditated torture on defenseless creatures?
I think you're downplaying Stallworthy's incident. Not to get picky, but it wasn't in the dead of night...it was 7 am. His alcohol limit was .128, over the legal .08 limit. And the official conviction was for DUI Manslaughter.

Goodell, just today, suspended Stallworth indefinitely with no pay.
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  #3643  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:19 PM
Brady #1, Peyton #2 all time... laughable.
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  #3644  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingofKings2525 View Post
Brady #1, Peyton #2 all time... laughable.
Peyton Manning is the most overrated QB in history.
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  #3645  
Old 06-18-2009, 11:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingofKings2525 View Post
Brady #1, Peyton #2 all time... laughable.
come on now... everyone is entitled to their own opinion

But in all honesty, there is no "best qb of all time." Rules and styles have changed too much, so you really can't compare. You can only compare a guy with his peers. It seems asinine to compare Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Johnny Unitas, and Otto Graham and put them in some order.

Last edited by Darth Kenshin; 06-18-2009 at 11:41 PM..
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  #3646  
Old 06-19-2009, 12:06 AM
Darth, I agree. It's better, imo, to just group the QB's in different levels according to how "great" you think they are.

Montana, Favre, Marino, Elway, etc are at the top level.

Theismann, Simms, Namath, etc are on the next level.

^like that

It's too hard to compare Bart Starr to Tom Brady. Two different era's, two different styles of football.
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  #3647  
Old 06-20-2009, 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
Tom Brady is the most overrated QB in history.
Now we agree on something.

Oh and you said it best yourself, Mike Vick was convicted of killing CREATURES. Not human beings, creatures.

The way we slaughter and harvest cows, pigs, and chickens in this country for food can be pretty inhumane and down right torturous but nobody gives a fuck until its "man's best friend" getting treated that way.

And both of them do it for money, so don't make Vick out to be the money hungry monster when its money hungry corporate chains doing the same thing for easy fast food meat.
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  #3648  
Old 06-20-2009, 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
Now we agree on something.

Oh and you said it best yourself, Mike Vick was convicted of killing CREATURES. Not human beings, creatures.

The way we slaughter and harvest cows, pigs, and chickens in this country for food can be pretty inhumane and down right torturous but nobody gives a fuck until its "man's best friend" getting treated that way.

And both of them do it for money, so don't make Vick out to be the money hungry monster when its money hungry corporate chains doing the same thing for easy fast food meat.
However Cows are treated when theyre slaughtered - quick, who knows?- there is a fundamental difference between killing something for food and killing it for FUN. The intent is much, much different. Again, I say, you're focusing on the value of one life versus another - I'm more talking about the nature of his INTENT. And Vick's intent was purely psychopathic. (lest we forget all serial killers start out by killing animals. There's a reason for that)

Why do people LOVE to argue that Mike Vick isnt such a bad guy just because human beings eat meat to survive. Why do they like to pretend he didnt do something so horribly, horribly wrong because our bodies need the protein from meat to survive?

It's TORTURE. If he had strung a dog up by its back legs and electrocuted it for a few hours a day it would have been the same thing. They torture it designed in a way to make the dog into a killer. They dont do that to cows or chicks or whatever.
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  #3649  
Old 06-20-2009, 01:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
Now we agree on something.
Tom Brady's got himself quite a few rings. Dont argue a point that he's not worthy of his status simply because you dont like him or his team.
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  #3650  
Old 06-21-2009, 12:45 AM
I really don't want to get into a whole messy argument here, but I think clearly Peyton Manning has proven over the years that he is much more of a franchise quarterback than Tom Brady.

All you have to do is look back to last season for proof. Matt Cassell steps into the New England system having not started a football game since high school and throws for 400+ and comes up just a game out of the playoffs. Its clearly not that hard to win in New England when you have the defense and receiving core that the Pats have.

Meanwhile, the Colts played god awful the entire season yet continued winning games due to the incredible 2 minute drills engineered by Manning and Co. in the last quarters of the game.

You take Manning off the Colts for an entire season and I don't really see them winning more than a game. Maybe two.

New England loads up every year like if Mark Cuban ran the Yankees on a coke binge.

The Colts haven't given Manning anything new to work since he's been there.
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  #3651  
Old 06-21-2009, 01:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
The Colts haven't given Manning anything new to work since he's been there.
I was with you until that statement. Their draft history says otherwise. They've been trying to give Manning weapons for a while.
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  #3652  
Old 06-22-2009, 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KingofKings2525 View Post
Brady #1, Peyton #2 all time... laughable.
Favre #1 is laughable. Opps, another interception, cheese heads everywhere cry in their milk.
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  #3653  
Old 06-22-2009, 08:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
Tom Brady's got himself quite a few rings. Dont argue a point that he's not worthy of his status simply because you dont like him or his team.
I do not like the Pats or Tom Brady. I was happy he was hurt last year. He is the best QB ever. With 2 mins left and his team down by less than 7, you know he will succeed in winning the game more times than any other qb. The man won his rings with no one on his team to throw to and the one year he had a pro bowl receiver his team was perfect and only my awesome Giants prevented him from winning yet another ring.
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  #3654  
Old 06-22-2009, 01:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
I really don't want to get into a whole messy argument here, but I think clearly Peyton Manning has proven over the years that he is much more of a franchise quarterback than Tom Brady.

All you have to do is look back to last season for proof. Matt Cassell steps into the New England system having not started a football game since high school and throws for 400+ and comes up just a game out of the playoffs. Its clearly not that hard to win in New England when you have the defense and receiving core that the Pats have.
What makes you so sure this is an indication of Matt Cassels ability, instead of Brad being a product of "Scheme"?

BTW< whenever somebody says a player is a product of "scheme" is just trying to find an excuse to not like them. Its highly likely that Brady will retire a Patriot with Belicheck as his coach, so, for you, its like covering your bases, since no one will ever know otherwise.
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  #3655  
Old 06-22-2009, 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
The Colts haven't given Manning anything new to work since he's been there.
While I agree with most of what you said, I would like to point out a few things.

Manning started in 98 and since he has been in Indy these players on offense have come in and are with the team today.

Reggie Wayne 2001
Dallas Clark 2003
Anthony Gonzalez 2007
Joseph Addai 2006

The Line:
Tony Ugoh 2008
Charlie Johnson 2006
Mike Pollak 2008
Ryan Diem 2001

So since Peyton has been around they have rebuilt the line and now only have one older player (Jeff Saturday) is left. I would say that is pretty important. They have added a top tier TE and RB in recent years. Wayne came after Peyton and they have high hopes Gonzales can replace Harrison.

Since the defense had been pretty sucky, they had to do a lot of drafting for the defense for several years. Plus, they did have a defensive minded coach these last few years. I am a Giant fan and I'd take Wayne and Clark right now for my Manning and so would the Pats if they could.

The biggest and best thing Indy ever did for Peyton was bringing over one of the best playoffs kickers ever from the Pats. Don't forget that. Remember what happened the year before they got him.

What do you think now?
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  #3656  
Old 07-15-2009, 10:17 PM
Matt Cassell...five years, 63 million bucks. 28 million guaranteed. Is this guy worth it?
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  #3657  
Old 07-16-2009, 02:51 AM
Not at all, and KC will surely realize that once the season starts.

Is anyone else liking the Texans as a sleeper pick out of the AFC this year?
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  #3658  
Old 07-16-2009, 10:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
Not at all, and KC will surely realize that once the season starts.

Is anyone else liking the Texans as a sleeper pick out of the AFC this year?
Not so sure you can be called a sleeper pick 3 years in a row. The last two of three seasons they have finished strong with high expectation the next year, only to tank the first few games. They have a decent team. I look for them to challenge for a wild card spot.
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  #3659  
Old 07-18-2009, 12:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
Not at all, and KC will surely realize that once the season starts.

Is anyone else liking the Texans as a sleeper pick out of the AFC this year?
1. I'm afraid you're right.

and

2. I agree with Abbie on this one, kind of. Even then, I think they will blow it. There is just way too much competition, I think.
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  #3660  
Old 07-18-2009, 07:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Smith fan View Post
Is anyone else liking the Texans as a sleeper pick out of the AFC this year?
2 Things

1. When it's 3 years in a row are they really a sleeper pick?

And

2. No not until Matt Schaub proves he can do something and not get injured, and Rex Grossman and Dan Orlevsky don't scare me at all.
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  #3661  
Old 07-19-2009, 04:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by horrorfreak13 View Post
2 Things

1. When it's 3 years in a row are they really a sleeper pick?

And

2. No not until Matt Schaub proves he can do something and not get injured, and Rex Grossman and Dan Orlevsky don't scare me at all.
You are scared if you are a Texan fan and Rex or Dan start. lol
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  #3662  
Old 07-19-2009, 06:53 PM
Just to catch up.

I don't think Brady or Manning are overrated. An old-timer that people group into the level of great that was not, was Namath. He was extremely overrated. And I don't even want to talk about Favre. I just simply hate him.

Agree with everyone that says the Texans can't be a sleeper.

And all of you, just be glad you're not like me and are a Lions fan.
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  #3663  
Old 07-19-2009, 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by labialover View Post
And all of you, just be glad you're not like me and are a Lions fan.


Stafford will lead you to the Promised Land. The kid is The Truth.

I went to college down the street from where he played in high school. Even back then, he could sit on the 50 yard line, indian style, and throw a football through the uprights. His arm is epic.
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  #3664  
Old 07-19-2009, 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicochetShaw View Post
Stafford will lead you to the Promised Land. The kid is The Truth.

I went to college down the street from where he played in high school. Even back then, he could sit on the 50 yard line, indian style, and throw a football through the uprights. His arm is epic.
Considering the promised land would be a winning season, I certainly hope so. But everything I've read about him so far in the OTAs is him being very impressive. I still question some of their moves this off-season but I liked who they added for the most part. Hopefully next year they address the defense and both lines.
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  #3665  
Old 07-20-2009, 01:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RicochetShaw View Post
Stafford will lead you to the Promised Land. The kid is The Truth.
I think for the Lions after last year anything above 4 wins is the promise land at this point this franchise has had nothing to cheer about since Barry Sanders left.

I just can't believe we are about 6 weeks away from the season starting.

Denver better hope the get out to a really good start in their first 3 games I can see them doing really bad after that.
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  #3666  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by labialover View Post
Just to catch up.

I don't think Brady or Manning are overrated. An old-timer that people group into the level of great that was not, was Namath. He was extremely overrated. And I don't even want to talk about Favre. I just simply hate him.

Agree with everyone that says the Texans can't be a sleeper.

And all of you, just be glad you're not like me and are a Lions fan.
Favre is a great QB, but his time has gone. Let it go. I can't believe a team would do something like this for one player. It isn't about one guy, but a team. I would really hate being their other two QBs right now.

The Texans are a team on the brink. Cushing should really help the Defense. I am not sold on Schaub, but if he is going to breakout, this would be the season to do so. It will be interesting to see if Slaton can improve from last year. He was a big shocker.

The Lions are a team that should win a few games this year. I think everyone expects them to win at least 1 game. But, you have to remember that they are rebuilding, and not expect to make it to the playoffs because they do have some good pieces, but still need more.

I am a 49ers fan, and just hoping we have a solid year from one of our QBs. It would be nice if Gore stayed healthy, Crabtree recovers fully from his injury and is a standout.

The team I really want to see is the Raiders. I just want to see how they perform with the way they drafted. I am not a fan, but just curious.
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  #3667  
Old 07-20-2009, 03:29 PM
Quote:
Plenty of teams should want Vick
Posted by Mike Florio on July 20, 2009 12:06 PM ET

NFL_vick1.jpgOur latest item for SportingNews.com makes the case for quarterback Mike Vick refusing to serve as a backup quarterback/part-time Wildcat option once he's reinstated to the NFL.

"The question for now isn't whether Vick will win a title or otherwise become the best quarterback in the game," we explain. "The question is whether he's currently one of the best 32.

"There's no reason to think he isn't, and so there simply is no reason for him to accept any other role."

To prove our point, let's compare Vick to the starting quarterbacks for every other team, and let's apply one of three labels to each guy. ("Better" means he's better than Vick, not that Vick is better than him. And you should feel free to come up with your own scale, if you think you're better than me.)

Here we go.

Arizona: Kurt Warner . . . better.

Atlanta: Matt Ryan . . . better.

Buffalo: Trent Edwards . . . comparable.

Baltimore: Joe Flacco . . . better.

Chicago: Jay Cutler . . . better.

Cleveland: Derek Anderson/Brady Quinn . . . worse.

Cincinnati: Carson Palmer . . . better.

Carolina: Jake Delhomme . . . worse.

Denver: Kyle Orton . . . worse.

Dallas: Tony Romo . . . comparable.

Detroit: Matthew Stafford/Daunte Culpepper . . . worse.

Green Bay: Aaron Rodgers . . . comparable.

Houston: Matt Schaub . . . comparable.

Indianapolis: Peyton Manning . . . better.

Jacksonville: David Garrard . . . worse.

Kansas City: Matt Cassel . . . comparable.

Miami: Chad Pennington . . . comparable.

Minnesota: Tarvaris Jackson/Sage Rosenfels . . . worse.

New England: Tom Brady . . . better.

New Orleans: Drew Brees . . . better.

New York Giants: Eli Manning . . . better.

New York Jets: Kellen Clemens/Mark Sanchez . . . worse.

Oakland: JaMarcus Russell/Jeff Garcia . . . worse.

Philadelphia: Donovan McNabb . . . better.

Pittsburgh: Ben Roethlisberger . . . better.

San Diego: Philip Rivers . . . better.

San Francisco: Shaul Hill/Alex Smith . . . worse.

Seattle: Matt Hasselbeck . . . better.

St. Louis: Marc Bulger . . . comparable.

Tampa Bay: Josh Freeman/Luke McCown/Byron Leftwich . . . worse.

Tennessee: Kerry Collins . . . worse.

Washington: Jason Campbell . . . worse.

So that's 13 starters better than Vick, seven who are comparable, and a dozen who are worse.

Of course, many more factors go into the analysis. We aren't accounting for potential or contract status or other factors that would cause teams not to pursue him.

But the bottom line is that, even with two seasons out of the game, Vick better than many guys who'll be taking snaps on a regular basis this year. Thus, once the Commissioner reinstates this specific convicted felon, there's going to be a team that ultimately will feel like it should be convicted of grand larceny.
I think Vick would be better off being a receiver. He was a below average QB if you take out the running and that was before his exit from the game.
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  #3668  
Old 07-20-2009, 06:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoe1985 View Post
Favre is a great QB, but his time has gone. Let it go. I can't believe a team would do something like this for one player. It isn't about one guy, but a team. I would really hate being their other two QBs right now.
Excuse me? Brett Favre's time in the NFL isn't over...not yet. He has another 20 years left in the league at the very least. And once those 20 additional years have been completed, he should keep on playing until he collapses and dies on the football field. To hell with retirement. Retirement is overrated.

Strider

Last edited by Strider; 07-20-2009 at 06:35 PM..
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  #3669  
Old 07-20-2009, 06:43 PM
That was a terrible analysis. Vick won't be anything more than a #2 QB somehwere. He was always an average-below average QB that was made by ESPN.
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  #3670  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Strider View Post
Excuse me? Brett Favre's time in the NFL isn't over...not yet. He has another 20 years left in the league at the very least. And once those 20 additional years have been completed, he should keep on playing until he collapses and dies on the football field. To hell with retirement. Retirement is overrated.

Strider
I don't know if this is you being funny or serious. I pray the former.
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  #3671  
Old 07-20-2009, 08:57 PM
the Vick thing will be very interesting. I can't see a team giving him the keys to their franchise as a starting quarterback. Not right away. Either he joins a team as a backup and play in a couple packages (wildcat stuff) or he plays in the USFL or whatever the league is called, and proves he worked the rust off and is ready to play in the NFL (or, he fails there, and people write him off as a quarterback forever).

The only team that should even CONSIDER Vick as a starting qb would be Carolina. Delhomme sucks, and with that running game, play-action bootlegs could be lethal. Plus, Vick never had a guy like Steve Smith, so that could be interesting. I would say the 49ers, but Vick has proven he doesn't have the accuracy necessary to play in a west coast offense.
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  #3672  
Old 07-20-2009, 09:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin View Post
the Vick thing will be very interesting. I can't see a team giving him the keys to their franchise as a starting quarterback. Not right away. Either he joins a team as a backup and play in a couple packages (wildcat stuff) or he plays in the USFL or whatever the league is called, and proves he worked the rust off and is ready to play in the NFL (or, he fails there, and people write him off as a quarterback forever).

The only team that should even CONSIDER Vick as a starting qb would be Carolina. Delhomme sucks, and with that running game, play-action bootlegs could be lethal. Plus, Vick never had a guy like Steve Smith, so that could be interesting. I would say the 49ers, but Vick has proven he doesn't have the accuracy necessary to play in a west coast offense.

I can see him being a backup in Miami. He would do quite well in the wildcat until he had to throw.
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  #3673  
Old 07-20-2009, 10:23 PM
Carolina just signed Delhomme to a pretty big extension this summer, so I don't think they would consider him for the starters job.

Miami has Pennington slotted to start with pressure from Henne. Pat White is expected to run the Wildcat.

I have no idea who will sign him. I'm thinking it's gonna be kind of like the Terrell Owens sigining with Buffalo. A team no one was expecting.
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  #3674  
Old 07-21-2009, 02:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbie Normal View Post
I can see him being a backup in Miami. He would do quite well in the wildcat until he had to throw.
yeah I think a lot of teams can use him as a backup. I mean, he's overrated because he was the 1st pick and signed the biggest contract in NFL history at the time when he signed the extension, but he is an above-average quarterback. CBS Sportsline posted an article of the 10 best No. 2 qbs in the league for the upcoming season. Their list: Jeff Garcia, Jon Kitna, Derek Anderson, Sage Rosenfels (clearly, the dude things Favre is coming to Minny), Matt Leinart, Tyler Thigpen, Charlie Batch, Rex Grossman, Tarvaris Jackson, and Todd Collins. I'd take Vick over any of those guys other than Garcia. Obviously, none of those teams would sign him since they're set on the depth chart, but he'd immediately become one of the 2 or 3 best backups in the league if he signs and is utilized in that role elsewhere.
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  #3675  
Old 07-21-2009, 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin View Post
yeah I think a lot of teams can use him as a backup. I mean, he's overrated because he was the 1st pick and signed the biggest contract in NFL history at the time when he signed the extension, but he is an above-average quarterback. CBS Sportsline posted an article of the 10 best No. 2 qbs in the league for the upcoming season. Their list: Jeff Garcia, Jon Kitna, Derek Anderson, Sage Rosenfels (clearly, the dude things Favre is coming to Minny), Matt Leinart, Tyler Thigpen, Charlie Batch, Rex Grossman, Tarvaris Jackson, and Todd Collins. I'd take Vick over any of those guys other than Garcia. Obviously, none of those teams would sign him since they're set on the depth chart, but he'd immediately become one of the 2 or 3 best backups in the league if he signs and is utilized in that role elsewhere.
I meant sign Vick as a backup in Miami for the time being. I think he would start after several games. I do not have any confidence in Chad. I don't think Vick can go anywhere, right now and start. He would need to get into football shape (if he is not already) and more importantly learn the system. He is in no way ready to start for anyone. If someone signs him it won't be just to backup, but to start similar to a rookie QB. A team is not going to sign him as a backup when they have a quality starting QB already.
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  #3676  
Old 07-21-2009, 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbie Normal View Post
I meant sign Vick as a backup in Miami for the time being. I think he would start after several games. I do not have any confidence in Chad. I don't think Vick can go anywhere, right now and start. He would need to get into football shape (if he is not already) and more importantly learn the system. He is in no way ready to start for anyone. If someone signs him it won't be just to backup, but to start similar to a rookie QB. A team is not going to sign him as a backup when they have a quality starting QB already.
Interesting... you think Chad's season last year was a fluke? I'm kind of leaning in that direction myself.

But I DO think someone would consider signing him just as a backup to play in a few packages, but not to ultimately take over. Bostn media keeps saying the Pats might take a shot at him because they have no qb depth. Not sure if that's the team, but I can see a similar situation elsewhere.
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  #3677  
Old 07-21-2009, 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darth Kenshin View Post
Interesting... you think Chad's season last year was a fluke? I'm kind of leaning in that direction myself.

But I DO think someone would consider signing him just as a backup to play in a few packages, but not to ultimately take over. Bostn media keeps saying the Pats might take a shot at him because they have no qb depth. Not sure if that's the team, but I can see a similar situation elsewhere.
I do not think he had a fluke season. I think he is a smart and decent QB with lots of limits. I do not think he is the type of QB to win a Super Bowl like a Brady or Manning (both of them). Most teams build their team around the success of their QB. If the Fins are doing to do this, I would not bank on Chad. There are also lots of teams that would love Chad to just "manage" the game, because he is smart and can do that. I hate that term and QB's should be able to do more than "manage" their position.

Hell, the QB for the Ravens sucked ass, but he played great in the Super Bowl and during the season played well enough to let the D win it for him.

Might be interesting if a team would go with a two QB set or change out QBs during the game. The Redskins would be awesome with this idea. Campbell is ok, but he tends to disappear for a play or two. Put Vick in for a few plays and wow, shit could happen. Portis is a quality back. This might also work for the Iggles. Philly would love Vick.

McNabb and Penningham are often injured.

Last edited by Abbie Normal; 07-21-2009 at 06:10 PM..
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  #3678  
Old 07-21-2009, 06:12 PM
He should be strugn up by his toes and beaten with a bat wrapped in barb wire for no less than fifty years, while being force fed the shit excreted from the dogs of which he tortured and murdered for money.

Or get signed by Baltimore.
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  #3679  
Old 07-21-2009, 06:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamjohnson View Post
He should be strugn up by his toes and beaten with a bat wrapped in barb wire for no less than fifty years, while being force fed the shit excreted from the dogs of which he tortured and murdered for money.

Or get signed by Baltimore.
Baltimore? I would say Cleveland. That is the NFL equivalent to the Clippers.
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  #3680  
Old 07-21-2009, 06:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abbie Normal View Post
Baltimore? I would say Cleveland. That is the NFL equivalent to the Clippers.
Cleveland does have a hellmouth.
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