Question for those who think that those who oppose ObamaCare are Racist

[Prismatic Sphere]

Let's pretend that not everyone who opposes ObamaCare is racist. If you can imagine; let's just say there's a select few out there who are against his policies and don't hate it simply because Obama is black and leave it at that.
If you can do that; I have a multi-pronged question:

1) Isn't making a broad generalization about a group of people sharing a thought or a belief and then labelling that group a vile term such as a racist, just as bad as what you deem racists to be guilty of?
2) Isn't using the term "racism" bringing the issue of race into the mix unnecessarily when no one else is attacking race but the issues???
3) Doesn't this cause further division and give more credence for anti-racist policies i.e. government discrimination?
4) Isn't this really just wagging the dog and deflecting how wrong ObamaCare is inherently and could racism just be a red herring???
5) What does this do for children who aren't concerned about race and then they see racism all over the TV and newspapers when at best it is conjecture on the part of the left?

*Doesn't this give racism undue clout for no other reason than politics as usual?

[The Heart Collector]

no.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

no.

Very eloquent Heart Collective. Did you cut and paste that?

[Reigh Kaufman]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

no.

.

[Squid Vicious]

Originally Posted by The Heart Collector

no.

"no." indeed.

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

1) Isn't making a broad generalization about a group of people sharing a thought or a belief and then labelling that group a vile term such as a racist, just as bad as what you deem racists to be guilty of?
2) Isn't using the term "racism" bringing the issue of race into the mix unnecessarily when no one else is attacking race but the issues???
3) Doesn't this cause further division and give more credence for anti-racist policies i.e. government discrimination?
4) Isn't this really just wagging the dog and deflecting how wrong ObamaCare is inherently and could racism just be a red herring???
5) What does this do for children who aren't concerned about race and then they see racism all over the TV and newspapers when at best it is conjecture on the part of the left?

First, I don't think most of the opponents of healthcare reform are racists. They made the exact same nonsense bullshit arguments when Clinton tried to help the country and he was a good ol' white boy from Arkansas. A good portion of them fear or dislike black people, but I don't know that it's most and moreover that's really tangential to the issue not its motivator.

1.) No, "racist" is inaccurate but "ignorant and stupid piece of shit" would be accurate. It is the thoughts and beliefs they share that are vile.
2.) The vast majority of these people are not attacking the issues, they're attacking make-believe problems like socialism, a Kenyan birth certificate, death panels, and "czars" running the country. These aren't the actual issues, it's baseless shit Glenn Beck comes up with for his talking points and their internalize and parrot incessantly, blissfully unaware of the real world.
3.) No, and right now "division" is not a bad thing. This pointless, hopeless push for "post-partisan harmony" has no chance of working because conservatives don't give an inch so all policies just get worse. We need to make a clear and firm division between the sane and insane, moral and immoral, rational and irrational. Division right now is vital.
4.) Yes. The health care reform bill being proposed is awful, a gift to the health insurance companies and millionaires that the conservative protesters support rather than a cost-effective way to make sure American citizens don't die from being poor. The idea that race is behind the opposition is being touted by the idiotic corporate media who have the memory of goldfish and no sense of historical context. Conservatives always freak out like this, decry the legitimacy of the president, and pretend we're a step away from socialism when the country even flirts with diminishing its suffocating plutocracy.
5.) It isn't conjecture on the part of the left. The genuine "left" recognizes this isn't about race primarily, but rather conservatives' undying need for false victimization and pinning the crimes of the super wealthy on the poor, attacking the weakest segments in society like an insecure bully. It's rather conjecture on the part of the corporate media owned by billionaire conservatives. What does this do for the children? What do you even mean? You sound like Helen Lovejoy with that bullshit posturing.



If not for the damn liberal media our children would live in post-racial harmony.

[BubbaStrangelove]

I'd rather hear a question asked for all those who think there's no racial undercurrent for a vocal segment of his critics.

[Potter82]

I have absolutely no doubt that there is definitely an element of racism behind some of the criticism, anyone who hasn't noticed this isn't paying attention.

Case in point; the signs of many protestors exagerrating Obama's African features, the popularity of things like "Barack the Magic Negro" & the "Keep the Whitehouse White button" among conservative circles, the fact that many of these people attack Obama's very legitimacy as opposed to his policies, and then there is the demographic...

Many of those who seem to have the biggest problem with Obama are older white people having low levels of education from the South.

There's no way that you can't tell me that older people with low levels of education from the South aren't likely to have higher than average racial attitudes than younger more educated people. It makes perfect sense for older people to harbour more racist attitudes given that such attitudes were more prevalent and accepted in their day (especially in the South) and it's no secret that the older people are, the less likely they are to change their perceptions (you can't teach an old dog new tricks, etc.). It also makes perfect sense for their to be a correlation between racism and low levels of education as most racism is caused by ignorance and fear of the unfamiliar and things you don't understand - and judging by the statements I've heard or read from many of these people, it's pretty clear there's an awful lot of things they don't understand ...

Then if you'll recall, McCain received less support than Bush did in 2004 in every single state - except the states of the deep South (& Alaska due to Caribou barbie ofcourse) - how can you explain this phenomenon? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many of these states were states of the Confederacy and the states most involved in and the last to be rid of segregation.

However, while I think racism is definitely a factor, it's hard to say HOW much... while some of the people who are critical of Obama are racists, not everyone is and it would be dismissive and intellectually dishonest to dismiss ALL of it or perhaps even the majority of it as being racially driven.

I think a bigger factor driving much of the outrage is deep widespread economic anxiety due to the recession and yes, fear of change (which is driving much of the anxiety of seniors)

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Potter82

I have absolutely no doubt that there is definitely an element of racism behind some of the criticism, anyone who hasn't noticed this isn't paying attention.

Case in point; the signs of many protestors exagerrating Obama's African features, the popularity of things like "Barack the Magic Negro" & the "Keep the Whitehouse White button" among conservative circles, the fact that many of these people attack Obama's very legitimacy as opposed to his policies, and then there is the demographic...

Many of those who seem to have the biggest problem with Obama are older white people having low levels of education from the South.

There's no way that you can't tell me that older people with low levels of education from the South aren't likely to have higher than average racial attitudes than younger more educated people. It makes perfect sense for older people to harbour more racist attitudes given that such attitudes were more prevalent and accepted in their day (especially in the South) and it's no secret that the older people are, the less likely they are to change their perceptions (you can't teach an old dog new tricks, etc.). It also makes perfect sense for their to be a correlation between racism and low levels of education as most racism is caused by ignorance and fear of the unfamiliar and things you don't understand - and judging by the statements I've heard or read from many of these people, it's pretty clear there's an awful lot of things they don't understand ...

Then if you'll recall, McCain received less support than Bush did in 2004 in every single state - except the states of the deep South (& Alaska due to Caribou barbie ofcourse) - how can you explain this phenomenon? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many of these states were states of the Confederacy and the states most involved in and the last to be rid of segregation.

However, while I think racism is definitely a factor, it's hard to say HOW much... while some of the people who are critical of Obama are racists, not everyone is and it would be dismissive and intellectually dishonest to dismiss ALL of it or perhaps even the majority of it as being racially driven.

I think a bigger factor driving much of the outrage is deep widespread economic anxiety due to the recession and yes, fear of change (which is driving much of the anxiety of seniors)

Good post.

[BubbaStrangelove]

The US South = more racism thing is pretty much bullshit, given that this isn't the 1960s. Most racists live in the midwest or western mountain states due to there simply being more white people there. Most white supremacists groups are centralized in places like California or Montana, if even in the US and not in some place like Germany or France.

Most notably, and a very important fact that people who rally behind the "US South is racist like it was 40 years ago" mindset seem to not care too much about --- there are more black people living in the Southern US than in any other region, and obviously they aren't voting out of fear of black reprisal.

[The Heart Collector]

Well, one of the Tea Party organizers said Obama is 'acting' like a "welfare thug" and a "muslim indonesian".*





* Not racist.

[The Heart Collector]

A better question is why anyone would want to even associate with these people.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

First, I don't think most of the opponents of healthcare reform are racists. They made the exact same nonsense bullshit arguments when Clinton tried to help the country and he was a good ol' white boy from Arkansas.

Are you fucking kidding me?!? Clinton did nothing to help the country. If anything he weakened it and gave Bush Jr. the impetus for making us even weaker.

Clinton shit on Amendment #1 by trying to censor the internet and putting a V-Chip in our TV sets.

Clinton shit on Amendment #2 by signing the Brady Bill.

Clinton shit on Amendment #4 via asset forfeitures.

Clinton shit on Amendment #5 by incinerating the Branch Davidians

*And all presidents since and including him have taken a gigantic shit on Amendment #9.

Please don't EVER post such nonsensical tripe on here ever again.

1.) No, "racist" is inaccurate but "ignorant and stupid piece of shit" would be accurate. It is the thoughts and beliefs they share that are vile.

Again, you are doing just what racists do here with this garbage.

2.) The vast majority of these people are not attacking the issues, they're attacking make-believe problems like socialism, a Kenyan birth certificate, death panels, and "czars" running the country. These aren't the actual issues, it's baseless shit Glenn Beck comes up with for his talking points and their internalize and parrot incessantly, blissfully unaware of the real world.

Yes, there is truth to this but there is also some truth in some of what the Beck crowd says as well. You cannot deny this. And we have been socialist for some time now.

3.) No, and right now "division" is not a bad thing. This pointless, hopeless push for "post-partisan harmony" has no chance of working because conservatives don't give an inch so all policies just get worse. We need to make a clear and firm division between the sane and insane, moral and immoral, rational and irrational. Division right now is vital.

Good speech. But I was talking about being further RACIALLY divided. Read my original post and then answer this question again.

4.) Yes. The health care reform bill being proposed is awful, a gift to the health insurance companies and millionaires that the conservative protesters support rather than a cost-effective way to make sure American citizens don't die from being poor. The idea that race is behind the opposition is being touted by the idiotic corporate media who have the memory of goldfish and no sense of historical context. Conservatives always freak out like this, decry the legitimacy of the president, and pretend we're a step away from socialism when the country even flirts with diminishing its suffocating plutocracy.

Citizens dying from being poor? That was funny. I'd like you to pinpoint to me who and where exactly this is happening other than Quentin's FantasyLand. Again, we were right wing socialist under Bush and now we are gravitating toward left wing socialist under Obama. Only a blind fool could possibly deny this.

5.) It isn't conjecture on the part of the left. The genuine "left" recognizes this isn't about race primarily, but rather conservatives' undying need for false victimization and pinning the crimes of the super wealthy on the poor, attacking the weakest segments in society like an insecure bully. It's rather conjecture on the part of the corporate media owned by billionaire conservatives. What does this do for the children? What do you even mean? You sound like Helen Lovejoy with that bullshit posturing.

And you sound like Richard Simmons selling salad dressing. "Corporate media owned by billionaire conservatives???"
Umm. Ok. If that's the case then why wasn't Van Jones ever covered for his bullshit in the mainstream media until he was finally shitcanned for it?!?(Even then, they didn't do that much of a good job of coverage)

Again, where is all this happening??? Quentin's FantasyLand. I'd like tickets.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Potter82

Then if you'll recall, McCain received less support than Bush did in 2004 in every single state - except the states of the deep South (& Alaska due to Caribou barbie ofcourse) - how can you explain this phenomenon? Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that many of these states were states of the Confederacy and the states most involved in and the last to be rid of segregation.

You couldn't be more off on this. McCain's unpopularity vs. Bush goes back to 2000 when McCain was winning in the South- and Bush played dirty in South Carolina with the whole black babies debackle. Remember??? You know, the whole South's non-racism is what is largely to blame for Bush's higher amount of support(even if they were suckered).

I believe Bubba did a pretty good job explaining and refuting your pigeon-holing of the South which(just like racism) stems from ignorance.

As for racism itself- I can think of many things worse than being a racist- most notably, a liar. Racism in and of itself is an extremely primitive concept because of just oh how so easy it is. It's is the most undescribably simple thing to classify a group of people into a category based on their skin color. This primitive outlook is so deep within humans that I would say that it is somewhat instinctive.
Everyone possesses this to some degree.
You can veil it, hide it, sugarcoat, or whitewash it- but EVERYONE is a racist in some form or another.
Racism is the oldest form of collectivism. Why and how could anyone think we have progressed so far from it???

What we should instead look at is the racism that is going on among and within Obama's circuit. The black caucuses and the racism that is prevalent between darker and light-skinned blacks.

[Preston_79]

I really don't think opposition to ObamaCare has that much to do with race. If you're a conservative or republican, making up a large portion of our population, you're probably going against it. It's always been that way. Even if Obama were white, just as many people would be rallying against it.

The racism argument is bullshit on so many levels. I'd equate it to Republicans calling everyone unpatriotic in wake of 911 if they didn't jump on board with Bush and Cheney. WEAK!

[Potter82]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

You couldn't be more off on this. McCain's unpopularity vs. Bush goes back to 2000 when McCain was winning in the South- and Bush played dirty in South Carolina with the whole black babies debackle. Remember??? You know, the whole South's non-racism is what is largely to blame for Bush's higher amount of support(even if they were suckered).

Wait, I thought McCain lost the 2000 GOP "because" of that out of wedlock black baby rumour that was started by Rove and co. I don't see how that's indicative of the South's non-racism, quite the opposite in fact.

Originally Posted by BubbaStrangelove

The US South = more racism thing is pretty much bullshit, given that this isn't the 1960s. Most racists live in the midwest or western mountain states due to there simply being more white people there. Most white supremacists groups are centralized in places like California or Montana, if even in the US and not in some place like Germany or France.

Most notably, and a very important fact that people who rally behind the "US South is racist like it was 40 years ago" mindset seem to not care too much about --- there are more black people living in the Southern US than in any other region, and obviously they aren't voting out of fear of black reprisal.

Yes it isn't the 1960s but many people who lived through that era are still around and it would naive to think they've all totally changed their perceptions with the times, especially if that's how they were raised. If you'll notice in my above post I specifically mentioned older people from the South for that very reason. I think you can't dismiss the effects the Confederacy and the Jim Crow laws had on the culture of the South, it was so pervasive that it likely influenced people's perceptions in ways many aren't even consciously aware of. Like perhaps they have no problem with black people in certain contexts but in others (i.e. positions of authority), they just can't accept it.

Originally Posted by Preston_79

I really don't think opposition to ObamaCare has that much to do with race. If you're a conservative or republican, making up a large portion of our population, you're probably going against it. It's always been that way. Even if Obama were white, just as many people would be rallying against it.

Oh I'm sure they would still call Obama a commie if he were white but would they go so far as to question his citizenship or use derogatory signs, chants, in regard to his race? No question they'd still be angry but the rhetoric would have been much different in tone and volume.

[Preston_79]

Originally Posted by Potter82

Oh I'm sure they would still call Obama a commie if he were white but would they go so far as to question his citizenship or use derogatory signs, chants, in regard to his race? No question they'd still be angry but the rhetoric would have been much different in tone and volume.

I still say that by going on a witch hunt for the racists is a distraction, and a form of intimidation. I get the impression from some that if you oppose Obama you're immediately a racist and if you want to prove otherwise you have to bend over backward to do so. Guilty until proven innocent. It's intellectually dishonest, but plenty on the left won't make a peep because they know at the end of the day these allegations of racism work in their favor. Again, much like the Republicans/Conservatives and how they label some people on the left as unpatriotic and how few people on the right will come to their defense. What ever moves their agenda forward is the game plan and if you have to play the race card, you do it.

[QUENTIN]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Are you fucking kidding me?!? Clinton did nothing to help the country. If anything he weakened it and gave Bush Jr. the impetus for making us even weaker.

Clinton shit on Amendment #1 by trying to censor the internet and putting a V-Chip in our TV sets.

Clinton shit on Amendment #2 by signing the Brady Bill.

Clinton shit on Amendment #4 via asset forfeitures.

Clinton shit on Amendment #5 by incinerating the Branch Davidians

*And all presidents since and including him have taken a gigantic shit on Amendment #9.

Please don't EVER post such nonsensical tripe on here ever again.

Clinton's a piece of shit, you ain't gotta convince me, but you totally misunderstood. Trying to help the country referred to the same specific thing, trying to reform health care so people don't die from being poor. And you'll recall, he got the same shit Obama is getting.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Again, you are doing just what racists do here with this garbage.

Nah, they're not remotely analogous actually. Racists by definition think negatively of someone because of the color of their skin or other superficial factors they cannot control that do not matter. I'm referring to these ignorant pieces of shit that way due entirely to the "content of their character," what they think and can control, and what matters. The color of your skin is not at all comparable with your belief system and actions.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Yes, there is truth to this but there is also some truth in some of what the Beck crowd says as well. You cannot deny this. And we have been socialist for some time now.

No, there isn't, not a lick. There aren't two sides to this, Beck is an idiot and a liar and what he says and these protesters believe is pure unadulterated bullshit. We're not socialist (you don't know what socialism means), Obama was born in Hawaii, there are no "death panels" or anything like it in any proposed bill, and czars are advisory roles without any direct power started by Reagan. I can "deny" there's truth to any of that crap because there isn't. The only truth to the Beck memes picked up by this lot is that yes, they are being robbed blind and their basic human rights challenged and revoked, but by the banking, pharmaceutical, energy, defense, insurance, and media industries for their continued profit from the government they own not by the fucking powerless urban poor.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Good speech. But I was talking about being further RACIALLY divided. Read my original post and then answer this question again.

No then. And I think by "government discrimination" you mean affirmative action which is pretty funny.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Citizens dying from being poor? That was funny. I'd like you to pinpoint to me who and where exactly this is happening other than Quentin's FantasyLand. Again, we were right wing socialist under Bush and now we are gravitating toward left wing socialist under Obama. Only a blind fool could possibly deny this.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090918/...lthcare_deaths

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5318652.shtml

http://www.familiesusa.org/issues/un...-coverage.html

45,000 Americans die each year, one every 12 minutes, from not having health insurance. As of 2006, when unemployment was not so high, 22,000 of those dead categorically could not afford coverage and life-saving medical treatment. They died from being poor.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

And you sound like Richard Simmons selling salad dressing. "Corporate media owned by billionaire conservatives???"
Umm. Ok. If that's the case then why wasn't Van Jones ever covered for his bullshit in the mainstream media until he was finally shitcanned for it?!?(Even then, they didn't do that much of a good job of coverage)

Again, where is all this happening??? Quentin's FantasyLand. I'd like tickets.

The mainstream media, that is every cable news channel, every major newspaper, 95% of all professional press in the US, is owned by one of five enormous multinational conglomerate corporations: TimeWarner, Disney, GE, Viacom, and NewsCorp. They are therefore the corporate media. These corporations in turn are owned by billionaire conservatives. So...yeah.

Van Jones' past wasn't covered before the conservative orchestrated media attack because it doesn't matter? He was an advisor on green jobs, not in a position of power but merely expertise for which he was qualified, and we live in a free country where people should be able to sign petitions for something 45% of the country believes and align with any political ideology they want and not lose their job for it. That was an insignificant bullshit "story" that the right wing trumped up into getting Jones thrown under the bus, something Obama is shameful for doing and set a scary precedent in allowing.

This is all happening in the USA.

Again, race does play a factor and many of the protesters are racist, but race is not the motivating, driving factor here in opposition to universal healthcare and it requires forgetting very recent history to claim that. Most of the right's complaints and arguments and shouting points are now just what they were in 1993 with a white boy in office trying to do the same thing. For most, it's how they respond to this issue or any similar issue much more than how they respond to a black president.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Preston_79

I still say that by going on a witch hunt for the racists is a distraction, and a form of intimidation. I get the impression from some that if you oppose Obama you're immediately a racist and if you want to prove otherwise you have to bend over backward to do so. Guilty until proven innocent. It's intellectually dishonest, but plenty on the left won't make a peep because they know at the end of the day these allegations of racism work in their favor. Again, much like the Republicans/Conservatives and how they label some people on the left as unpatriotic and how few people on the right will come to their defense. What ever moves their agenda forward is the game plan and if you have to play the race card, you do it.

Exactly.

Racism as a reason for opposing ObamaCare is essentially a red herring created by the left.
I'm sure there are a few who are against him because he is black; just as there are some who don't like that he is religious.
But this really is an empty issue and deflects away from the flaws in his policies.
The number of people solely motivated by race is pretty minute and what the left will have you believe in is essentially a consortium of strawmen.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

Nah, they're not remotely analogous actually. Racists by definition think negatively of someone because of the color of their skin or other superficial factors they cannot control that do not matter. I'm referring to these ignorant pieces of shit that way due entirely to the "content of their character," what they think and can control, and what matters. The color of your skin is not at all comparable with your belief system and actions.

But it is just as superficial or ridiculous trying to testify what someone thinks whom you do not know. Let alone what 100, 1000, or 100,000 people believe. You cannot rightly dismiss all the variables. But yes, communism and religion are inherently wrong and both based on bullshit any way you slice it; so I'll give you that.

No, there isn't, not a lick. There aren't two sides to this, Beck is an idiot and a liar and what he says and these protesters believe is pure unadulterated bullshit. We're not socialist (you don't know what socialism means), Obama was born in Hawaii, there are no "death panels" or anything like it in any proposed bill, and czars are advisory roles without any direct power started by Reagan. I can "deny" there's truth to any of that crap because there isn't. The only truth to the Beck memes picked up by this lot is that yes, they are being robbed blind and their basic human rights challenged and revoked, but by the banking, pharmaceutical, energy, defense, insurance, and media industries for their continued profit from the government they own not by the fucking powerless urban poor.

Stop using the poor as your trump card. There simply are no poor, poor people; just people who make lousy decisions with their lives. People get all they need. And I know socialism inside and out. I would nail you to the cross on socialist history any day; just name a place. I don't think you know what either capitalism or socialism means.
But you're right; we're closer to communism as all of the ten planks in the Comedic Manifesto exist in some form in the U.S. today.

And government has a hand in all the industries you mentioned. No industry can be evil in and of itself without the coercive hand of the government and the restriction of capital.

No then. And I think by "government discrimination" you mean affirmative action which is pretty funny.

Or criminal profiling. Take your pick. They are both morally wrong.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090918/...lthcare_deaths

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/...n5318652.shtml

http://www.familiesusa.org/issues/un...-coverage.html

45,000 Americans die each year, one every 12 minutes, from not having health insurance. As of 2006, when unemployment was not so high, 22,000 of those dead categorically could not afford coverage and life-saving medical treatment. They died from being poor.

Nope. Wrong again. (If that is factually accurate)They died from making poor choices. Anyone, anywhere can already get treated in an emergency room and can apply for Medicaid or Medicare(If they're old enough).
Again what you say here is pure spin using strawmen and nothing else.
There simply aren't any poor, poor people. They don't exist in this country.

Let alone that government intervention caused this whole debackle in the first place. Just as they caused the Great Depression and would have you believe that capitalism did it.
But that is where our government does have brains. They break your legs, hand you a crutch, and say, "Hey, without me, you wouldn't be able to walk."
The great con job is making us forget how they broke our legs in the first place and how quickly they broke them.

The mainstream media, that is every cable news channel, every major newspaper, 95% of all professional press in the US, is owned by one of five enormous multinational conglomerate corporations: TimeWarner, Disney, GE, Viacom, and NewsCorp. They are therefore the corporate media. These corporations in turn are owned by billionaire conservatives. So...yeah.

Ever heard of red tape?
Anywhere you can say that people are worse off from capitalism, I can point to the great leviathan behind the curtain and show you that our government is to blame.
Be like Tim Robbins in Team America if you want to; but screaming about the tyranny of evil corporations is an utterly inane argument devoid of reason and makes you look ridiculous just like him.

Ask yourself this question: Has government ever subsidized ANYTHING without controlling it???

Van Jones' past wasn't covered before the conservative orchestrated media attack because it doesn't matter? He was an advisor on green jobs, not in a position of power but merely expertise for which he was qualified, and we live in a free country where people should be able to sign petitions for something 45% of the country believes and align with any political ideology they want and not lose their job for it. That was an insignificant bullshit "story" that the right wing trumped up into getting Jones thrown under the bus, something Obama is shameful for doing and set a scary precedent in allowing.

This is all happening in the USA.

I think American citizens have a right to know that a full fledged self proclaimed communist is in the president's circle. He may not be a "governing entity" in and of himself but he does represent how the size and scope of our government is out of control(whether it's a drug czar or a porn czar) and he can have a greater influence than you or me.

Again, race does play a factor and many of the protesters are racist, but race is not the motivating, driving factor here in opposition to universal healthcare and it requires forgetting very recent history to claim that. Most of the right's complaints and arguments and shouting points are now just what they were in 1993 with a white boy in office trying to do the same thing. For most, it's how they respond to this issue or any similar issue much more than how they respond to a black president.

So essentially you're agreeing with me. Oh goody.

[QUENTIN]

You've got things precisely backwards and aren't paying attention. The government is not controlling the major industries and finance, rather they control the government. Were you on a long-term spelunking excursion during the several trillion dollar bank bailouts engineered by the richest heads of the banking industry?

Anyway...

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

There simply aren't any poor, poor people. They don't exist in this country.

I already wasted my time demonstrating to you that slavery was a lot worse than being a modern American citizen with air conditioning, a paycheck, and a computer. I can't waste any more time trying to have a conversation with someone who actually believes something like this, it's pointless and goes nowhere.

[Badbird]

The people who are protesting "Obamacare" aren't really even protesting Obamacare. They are simply protesting anything that Obama does.

It's the exact same people who were tea bagging back on tax day - supposedly because they were opposed to taxes and bail outs. Nevermind the fact that Obama actually cut taxes for the middle class (most people get an extra $20-30 in their paychecks now). Nevermind the fact that Bush started the bail outs. Nevermind the fact that GM and Chrysler asked for a bail out.

There is no doubt that there is an undercurrent of racism in a significant number of Obama protesters. But I would say a better word for it is just plain xenophobia.

The best description of all, of course, is ignorant. Case in point: protesting czars.


Whatever the next big hurdle is after health care, you can be assured that these same morons will be out at it again. Whether it's immigration, or Iraq, or alternative energy... it doesn't matter. They'll find a way to protest.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

You've got things precisely backwards and aren't paying attention. The government is not controlling the major industries and finance, rather they control the government. Were you on a long-term spelunking excursion during the several trillion dollar bank bailouts engineered by the richest heads of the banking industry?

Anyway...



I already wasted my time demonstrating to you that slavery was a lot worse than being a modern American citizen with air conditioning, a paycheck, and a computer. I can't waste any more time trying to have a conversation with someone who actually believes something like this, it's pointless and goes nowhere.

Taking the condescending route are we?
I thought better of you than this and have been respectful up until now.

Okay. So let's all become a child of the state and go on and keep feeding the great benevelont leviathan.

GOLF CLAPS all around for Quentin

I don't know what's scarier. That you actually believe the things you believe or that you believe it is the GOOD.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Badbird

The people who are protesting "Obamacare" aren't really even protesting Obamacare. They are simply protesting anything that Obama does.

It's the exact same people who were tea bagging back on tax day - supposedly because they were opposed to taxes and bail outs. Nevermind the fact that Obama actually cut taxes for the middle class (most people get an extra $20-30 in their paychecks now). Nevermind the fact that Bush started the bail outs. Nevermind the fact that GM and Chrysler asked for a bail out.

There is no doubt that there is an undercurrent of racism in a significant number of Obama protesters. But I would say a better word for it is just plain xenophobia.

The best description of all, of course, is ignorant. Case in point: protesting czars.


Whatever the next big hurdle is after health care, you can be assured that these same morons will be out at it again. Whether it's immigration, or Iraq, or alternative energy... it doesn't matter. They'll find a way to protest.

I think a lot of the people are protesting against the corruption in our government and the further trampling of our rights. And there is NOTHING moronic whatsoever about that.

Their character and IQ is really pretty secondary.
I'm sure not every Vietnam protester was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Badbird]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

I think a lot of the people are protesting against the corruption in our government and the further trampling of our rights. And there is NOTHING moronic whatsoever about that.

Their character and IQ is really pretty secondary.
I'm sure not every Vietnam protester was the sharpest knife in the drawer.

WTF?

Aside from health care claims that aren't remotely true (death panels, rationing, etc.), most of these people are protesting things that have been going on for decades but they seem to think Obama started it. Specifically the Czar thing.

Yeah, that's exactly like the Vietnam protests.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Badbird

WTF?

Aside from health care claims that aren't remotely true (death panels, rationing, etc.), most of these people are protesting things that have been going on for decades but they seem to think Obama started it. Specifically the Czar thing.

That's true about the czars. But why should they not protest? Obama isn't lessening the czars any; quite the opposite actually.

As for rationing of care; that is the horrible and logical consequence of socialized medicine. And it occurs in many countries with large populations. With a country as colossal as ours; many people are headed for some major heartbreaks(pun intended).

So what then? People shouldn't protest against Obama? Why? Because he's black???
That's really funny Badbird. I'm sure the black community appreciates your support.

[Vong]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

And we have been socialist for some time now.

I guess every forum needs at least one McCarthy...

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Vong

I guess every forum needs at least one McCarthy...

Well McCarthy was right(however flawed his character). So you may have a point there.

[Vong]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

McCarthy was right

And Stalin wore a pink tutu.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Vong

And Stalin wore a pink tutu.

Ever heard of the Venona Crypts? I thought not. Look that up and then tell me factually how McCarthy wasn't right.

Ignorance can be very dangerous.

As for your superlatively witty remark, FDR was a sycophant of Stalin; often referring to him as Uncle Joe. When they met at Yalta, I think they even shared a room. So Stalin's choice of unmentionables may be in Frank's memoirs.
You never know.

[Potter82]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Ever heard of the Venona Crypts? I thought not. Look that up and then tell me factually how McCarthy wasn't right.

Ignorance can be very dangerous.

As for your superlatively witty remark, FDR was a sycophant of Stalin; often referring to him as Uncle Joe. When they met at Yalta, I think they even shared a room. So Stalin's choice of unmentionables may be in Frank's memoirs.
You never know.

Even if he was right about so & so being a communist that does not justify the way in which he went about it. He basically staged a modern day witch-hunt to get a few reds. Do you think the ends justified the means?

It would be like saying that's it's fine for the government to torture the shit out of people if they can actually fine the guilty parties.

Which leads to an interesting question, as someone who appears to be against big government and over-arching control, what do you think about torture? Is engaging in such tactics not the eptitome of a Big Brother type government?

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by QUENTIN

You've got things precisely backwards and aren't paying attention. The government is not controlling the major industries and finance, rather they control the government. Were you on a long-term spelunking excursion during the several trillion dollar bank bailouts engineered by the richest heads of the banking industry?

And I forgot to mention that the government ABSOLUTELY has a hand in controlling major industries and finance when you look at who's running many major banks.
My bank, Bank Of America is now OWNED BY the government!

Look it up if you don't believe me. Looks to me like you could use a holiday of spelunking since the real world is something beyond your grasp.
(mods and admin.- QUENTIN goaded me with the spelunking thing first; so this should be fair play[christ, it's like elementary school]).

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Potter82

Even if he was right about so & so being a communist that does not justify the way in which he went about it. He basically staged a modern day witch-hunt to get a few reds. Do you think the ends justified the means?

Absolutely. How else would you propose he had done it(and it wasn't a FEW reds)???

It would be like saying that's it's fine for the government to torture the shit out of people if they can actually fine the guilty parties.

That's quite a leap. Investigation and torture are apples and baseballs.

Which leads to an interesting question, as someone who appears to be against big government and over-arching control, what do you think about torture? Is engaging in such tactics not the eptitome of a Big Brother type government?

Nowhere have I said that I approve of torture. I find the practice to be deplorable. I am entirely against the initiation of force. But I AM a big fan of retaliation on those who practice the initiation of force like *cough cough* our government.

[Badbird]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

That's true about the czars. But why should they not protest? Obama isn't lessening the czars any; quite the opposite actually.

Czar is a made up name by the media. These people are simply in charge of various agencies. Non-story.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

As for rationing of care; that is the horrible and logical consequence of socialized medicine. And it occurs in many countries with large populations. With a country as colossal as ours; many people are headed for some major heartbreaks(pun intended).

And here's a perfect example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Please tell me about all the death camps in Canada, France, Spain, England, etc. Show me the public outrage of those country's people. Oh, wait, there isn't any.

Insurance companies already ration care by denying claims and cutting coverage.

Next.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

So what then? People shouldn't protest against Obama? Why? Because he's black???
That's really funny Badbird. I'm sure the black community appreciates your support.

You can protest all you want. Just have a cause worth protesting. The opposition is grasping at straws if all they have are fucking Czar protests. When your protests consist entirely of misguided, ignorant, xenophobic mobs, you loose the right to be taken seriously.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Badbird

Czar is a made up name by the media. These people are simply in charge of various agencies. Non-story.

So the Drug Czar is someone of no consequence? Ok. You go on and believe they are nothing.

And here's a perfect example of someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. Please tell me about all the death camps in Canada, France, Spain, England, etc. Show me the public outrage of those country's people. Oh, wait, there isn't any.

Insurance companies already ration care by denying claims and cutting coverage.

Next.

My ex-roommate is a nurse and she is in your camp and she says that there has to be rationing if socialized medicine gets pushed through. (This should be common sense but hey, you can lead a man to water but you can't make him think).
Know anybody in the real world, let alone the health care industry who can refute that statement?
Didn't think so.

You can protest all you want. Just have a cause worth protesting. The opposition is grasping at straws if all they have are fucking Czar protests. When your protests consist entirely of misguided, ignorant, xenophobic mobs, you loose the right to be taken seriously.

And when you go by the NewLeft footage of the protests you undermine those of us who are well informed and have a cause worth proclaiming.

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Let's pretend that not everyone who opposes ObamaCare is racist. If you can imagine; let's just say there's a select few out there who are against his policies and don't hate it simply because Obama is black and leave it at that.
If you can do that; I have a multi-pronged question:

1) Isn't making a broad generalization about a group of people sharing a thought or a belief and then labelling that group a vile term such as a racist, just as bad as what you deem racists to be guilty of?
2) Isn't using the term "racism" bringing the issue of race into the mix unnecessarily when no one else is attacking race but the issues???
3) Doesn't this cause further division and give more credence for anti-racist policies i.e. government discrimination?
4) Isn't this really just wagging the dog and deflecting how wrong ObamaCare is inherently and could racism just be a red herring???
5) What does this do for children who aren't concerned about race and then they see racism all over the TV and newspapers when at best it is conjecture on the part of the left?

*Doesn't this give racism undue clout for no other reason than politics as usual?

I guess my main point(since many of you aren't getting it) is that many white voters are feeling a little shell shocked right now. Many of them voted for Obama. They thought the time had come when our country was going to move beyond race! Wouldn’t that have been wonderful? But in light of recent events they think that they might have made a mistake. They did what they thought was right and certainly politically correct, and suddenly they’re racists because they have voiced some disagreements with Obama policies?!?

I was naive enough to think that after Obama was elected, the country may have to started to move beyond race; but because of liberal hyperbole and false fingerpointing, this isn't the case. If anybody is to blame for the perpetuation of racism from here on out-
*pop goes the weasel*
it will be the liberals.

[Reigh Kaufman]

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

I guess my main point(since many of you aren't getting it) is that many white voters are feeling a little shell shocked right now. Many of them voted for Obama. They thought the time had come when our country was going to move beyond race! Wouldn’t that have been wonderful? But in light of recent events they think that they might have made a mistake. They did what they thought was right and certainly politically correct, and suddenly they’re racists because they have voiced some disagreements with Obama policies?!?

I was naive enough to think that after Obama was elected, the country may have to started to move beyond race; but because of liberal hyperbole and false fingerpointing, this isn't the case. If anybody is to blame for the perpetuation of racism from here on out-
*pop goes the weasel*
it will be the liberals.

Say, that sounds kinda right-wing...

*scratches jaw thoughtfully*

You ain't a right-winger, are you, boy?

[BubbaStrangelove]

Originally Posted by Potter82

Yes it isn't the 1960s but many people who lived through that era are still around and it would naive to think they've all totally changed their perceptions with the times, especially if that's how they were raised. If you'll notice in my above post I specifically mentioned older people from the South for that very reason. I think you can't dismiss the effects the Confederacy and the Jim Crow laws had on the culture of the South, it was so pervasive that it likely influenced people's perceptions in ways many aren't even consciously aware of. Like perhaps they have no problem with black people in certain contexts but in others (i.e. positions of authority), they just can't accept it.\

No, I was thinking it would naive to characterize a group of people based on an assumption of how you might be feeling now if you lived in their shoes for 40 years. That's not only naive, it's kind of condescending too. You said that racism in the south is probably what causes voters to cast differently than you would if you were a citizen.

A point that I got from your earlier post but chose to ignore because it seemed unnecessary --- when you talk about racism in the South, you mean the people who were like 30 and older in the 1960s and are in their 70s now, while the average life expectancy is 80? (and the average age in the south is 33)

You obviously don't mean the people who were in their 20s in the 60s and were part of the civil rights movement in the South?

Definitely you don't mean people from The South like Martin Luther King!

You'd have to be pretty misinformed to think racism in America is centralized to a group of old people living in the South who the ones are responsible for "red votes" in the South.

Hey, where'd all the racists go in 1992????



Hey, look, it's 1996, I guess all the old racists moved to the midwest, and down in the South, a bunch of old racists forgot it was election day!!!!



So by your estimations, in 1992 - 1996, there are less old people living in the South who were affected by Jim Crow laws than there were in 2000 - 2004?

If you want to theorize, why talk arbitrarily about a region based on presumptions instead of pin-pointing all the actual people we have as examples of, like Glen Beck who was born and raised in Washington, or the Teabagger groups that are formed in Colorado, DC, Connecticut --- Or why not go all with non-theoretical cases of white supremacy and look at aryan teen rock groups like P3r51an Blue who are from California and moved to Colorado to be around white people? (I don't like to spell the name to avoid Joblo being yielded during searches)

What you should be talking about in The South is poverty, as the South is the poorest region in the union, because there are no real industries in the South aside from tourism. For instance, in Alabama, 25% of the kids there are living in poverty. I wouldn't assume that as many people know this, since it's not as funny, but if you are going to talk about lack of education - you might want to consider that a bit more, because saying people can't be educated because of stuff that happened in the past in no different than someone saying blacks can't be civilized because they are from the jungle --- it's just, what's that word... naive?

[Prismatic Sphere]

Originally Posted by Reigh Kaufman

Say, that sounds kinda right-wing...

*scratches jaw thoughtfully*

You ain't a right-winger, are you, boy?

No sir. I am not.

I don't like to use labels as I don't align myself with any particular group. I align myself with ideas.

But if I had to classify myself, I would say that I am an Individualist Conservative Libertarian who happens to lean to the right because I understand that rights descend from property as well as our volitional nature.

[shoe1985]

Originally Posted by Preston_79

I really don't think opposition to ObamaCare has that much to do with race. If you're a conservative or republican, making up a large portion of our population, you're probably going against it. It's always been that way. Even if Obama were white, just as many people would be rallying against it.

The racism argument is bullshit on so many levels. I'd equate it to Republicans calling everyone unpatriotic in wake of 911 if they didn't jump on board with Bush and Cheney. WEAK!

I agree pretty much with what you wrote. I believe a lot of the issues are based on party. No matter what Obama does, Republicans and Conservatives will hate it. It is the way they see things. You will find many racists out there too. It is just how it works.

Originally Posted by Prismatic Sphere

Nope. Wrong again. (If that is factually accurate)They died from making poor choices. Anyone, anywhere can already get treated in an emergency room and can apply for Medicaid or Medicare(If they're old enough).
Again what you say here is pure spin using strawmen and nothing else.
There simply aren't any poor, poor people. They don't exist in this country.

I think from this post it shows you are an uneducated person, I have another term, but I would rather not get banned from it. I am sure you are probably young, maybe have some money, and think you know how people live. I had to go to a viewing and funeral for a family friend this past week. He died from cancer. He knew he had it for a few months, but his health insurance wouldn't pay for his medicine. He worked for over 30 years, paid into his health insurance, only to be told that we are not paying for your care. He filed for medical assistance, but was denied because his income was too high.

Get your head out of your ass. You live in this fantasy world where you believe there is no such thing as poor people. Many people work their butts off only to get pushed to the side.

You know why I support Obama's healthcare plan? Because I am sick of seeing friends of mine parents, who are getting sick and being told their coverage no longer covers them. Their bills are still the same, but care is not. Many of them have filed for bankruptcy because they could not afford to pay for their bills. Most of these people are college educated, and worked their whole lives.

Stop being fed the crap that your party throws at you. There are many people who have great coverage, and they are able to afford to pay for it. But, the issue I never hear discussed is what happens if these people lose their jobs? Can they afford COBRA on unemployment? What happens if they get sick and can no longer work? See, I have experienced these questions firsthand, more so recently, and it disgusts me to see these people get told they will not be covered. Oh, the health care industries are still bringing in billion dollar profits each year. I feel no sympathy if they are forced to go out of business, they did it too themselves.

As for government being part of this meltdown, get a clue. There are many reasons for the meltdown. Lack of regulation played a huge role. Americans spent like their was no tomorrow. Gas prices hit $4 a gallon, forcing people to either pay for gas, rent, utilities, or other things. It was bubble after bubble bursting at once, and it was a little bit of everything.


It is obvious you are a right winger, who feels that it is your way, or no way. Some people want what Obama is pushing through, which is why they voted for him. If you didn't vote for him, you probably disagree with his policies, and you will have your turn to change things in 2010. Remember, the Republicans had their time, let the Democrats have theirs. Look at that, the stock market could be hitting 10,000 next week. Who would have thought that would have happened this year?