James Cameron guilty of plagiarism?

[echo_bravo]

James Cameron's Avatar has been championed as an attempt at original science fiction storytelling in film amongst a sea of remakes and adaptations. But Cameron may have borrowed some of the key aspects of his tale from author Poul Anderson.

Reader Goldfarb pointed us to Call Me Joe, a novella written in 1957 by Golden Age science fiction writer Poul Anderson. Many fans of Anderson suspect that the story was an important influence on Avatar, and some are calling for Anderson to be credited on the film. And it's easy to see why.

Like Avatar, Call Me Joe centers on a paraplegic — Ed Anglesey — who telepathically connects with an artificially created life form in order to explore a harsh planet (in this case, Jupiter). Anglesey, like Avatar's Jake Sully, revels in the freedom and strength of his artificial created body, battles predators on the surface of Jupiter, and gradually goes native as he spends more time connected to his artificial body.
Now, there's nothing wrong with being inspired or influenced by other writers, and Cameron has mentioned a host of influences for Avatar: Dances with Wolves, Rudyard Kipling, Edgar Rice Burroughs. But it's odd, given some remarkable similarities in the plots, that he doesn't appear to have mentioned Anderson as a specific inspiration.

Should the similarities between Avatar and Call Me Joe cause problems for Cameron, it wouldn't be the first time. After The Terminator came out, writer Harlan Ellison sued the production company for plagiarizing two episodes he wrote for The Outer Limits. Even though Cameron took Ellison's ideas in a very different and novel direction, the company settled with Ellison, who is now acknowledged in the film's credits.

Avatar may be, by and large, an original film, much as The Terminator is. But there may be firmer roots beneath his story than Cameron has acknowledged thus far.

http://io9.com/5390226/did-james-cam...ersons-novella

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I actually had no idea about the whole Terminator lawsuit. I gotta say, it seems eerily similar to the short story Call Me Joe (at least the plot).

[countchocula]

Titanic is awfully similar to A Night to Remember.

[syxxpac]

Originally Posted by countchocula

Titanic is awfully similar to A Night to Remember.

So true. He thinks because he split HIS boat in half we wouldn't notice? Psh. That charlatan...

[LordSimen]

Even on the page itself they mention like a hundred different stories using the same damn premise. But none of those writers are being accused of plagiarism, only the filmmaker is. Fucking hell, I hate people. You beg and fucking plead for more "original material" and less sequels, remakes and adaptations, then when an "original piece" comes out you just tear it to shreds by comparing it to everything that came before it.

[countchocula]

Originally Posted by LordSimen

You beg and fucking plead for more "original material" and less sequels, remakes and adaptations, then when an "original piece" comes out you just tear it to shreds by comparing it to everything that came before it.

No, I didn't.

[poopontheshoes7]

Oh brother. I don't get it. I simply don't. What do people want? They beg and beg for a glimpse of this movie, freak out that Cameron is finally returning and what do they do? Bitch and complain about every little thing. Hype and anticipation are a film fans worst enemy. They build things up in their head forever and when the actual film or whatever doesn't meet their vision of what they THINK it should be they rip it apart.

[LordSimen]

You know what I mean Countchocula.

Originally Posted by poopontheshoes7

Oh brother. I don't get it. I simply don't. What do people want? They beg and beg for a glimpse of this movie, freak out that Cameron is finally returning and what do they do? Bitch and complain about every little thing. Hype and anticipation are a film fans worst enemy. They build things up in their head forever and when the actual film or whatever doesn't meet their vision of what they THINK it should be they rip it apart.

Yup. All the more reason to hate people.

[countchocula]

Jesus, I was joking. Calm down.

[LordSimen]

Fair enough. Fixed it. =)

[zombievictim]

Yeah this doesn't surprise me. People always blame every piece of original work to be plagiarized it seems. That wording sounds very weird but I'm sticking to it.

[APzombie]

he was successfully sued for Terminator. All home video versions have an additional story credit on them.

[Silverload]

If this lawsuit wins then The Matrix should be sued for ripping off Dark City, Star Wars should be sued for ripping off LOTR, and Indiana Jones should be sued for ripping off Allan Quatermain. It will never stop.

Originally Posted by APzombie

he was successfully sued for Terminator. All home video versions have an additional story credit on them.

He was not successfully sued. The studio settled out of court. Ellison is now only credited as "acknowledgment to the works of Harlan Ellison".

Cameron once publicly said that Harlan Ellison was an inspiration of his, and Ellison sued him for it. After seeing several interviews with Ellison it is easy to see that the guy is a complete douche bag.

[APzombie]

ah, my bad. Whenever the whole settle out of court thing comes up i figure some money was thrown around.

[someguy]

Originally Posted by LordSimen

You beg and fucking plead for more "original material" and less sequels, remakes and adaptations, then when an "original piece" comes out you just tear it to shreds by comparing it to everything that came before it.

lol no one said this here, you're just making up a group of people and then trashing them and pointing out how wrong they are

I can easily give you a counter example and point out that an original sci-fi came out this year called Moon. It was an "original piece" that had a lot of obvious inspirations (but like you said everything 'original' is inspired by something else nowadays) but people loved it. They thought it was a great original sci-fi movie that was mature and some people have even started a grassroots campaign to get Sam Rockwell nominated. You can say that people still hate it and call it a ripoff, but every movie will have that reaction by some people no matter what. You've seen the amount of love Moon has gotten on here and other places online, and it was largely praised for being something refreshing and original.

The thing with Avatar is that people were hoping for a badass sci-fi/action movie from James Cameron since he is seen as 'the master.' It's definitely going to be disappointing when people see that after 12 years of waiting the result looks like fucking Delgo. People just aren't liking what they're seeing.

As for the plagiarism accusation, we'll see. Based on the description in the article it sounds way too specific to not be influenced. I can get the influences with things like Dances With Wolves because they're more general story ideas but that novella sounds exactly like Avatar but with a few changed details. I'd have to read the story and see the movie before making a definite opinion but so far it doesn't look too good for Cameron.

[Adam J. Hakari]

Reminds me of when The Island came out, which had the exact premise of a movie shown on "MST3K," Parts: The Clonus Horror. I remember reading that the Clonus filmmakers actually sued or at least threatened a lawsuit, though I never followed up on what came of it.

There is homage and there's not giving credit where credit is due. If Avatar really is that similar to "Joe," then Cameron at the very least should add a "inspired by" or "suggested by" credit. And it's not a knock against Cameron's skills as a filmmaker, that he can't come up with anything himself. I'm sure Avatar will be a solid flick, but if he borrowed that liberally, then some acknowledgment is in order.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally Posted by someguy

Based on the description in the article it sounds way too specific to not be influenced. I can get the influences with things like Dances With Wolves because they're more general story ideas but that novella sounds exactly like Avatar but with a few changed details. I'd have to read the story and see the movie before making a definite opinion but so far it doesn't look too good for Cameron.

Originally Posted by Adam J. Hakari

There is homage and there's not giving credit where credit is due. If Avatar really is that similar to "Joe," then Cameron at the very least should add a "inspired by" or "suggested by" credit. And it's not a knock against Cameron's skills as a filmmaker, that he can't come up with anything himself. I'm sure Avatar will be a solid flick, but if he borrowed that liberally, then some acknowledgment is in order.

Thank you two for restoring some sanity to this thread.

[jolanar]

Did James Cameron actually write Avatar? If not it seems pretty hard to blame him for the plagiarism if there is any.

Oh and on a side note, that goodness for Firefox telling me how to spell plagiarism.

[LordSimen]

Originally Posted by Adam J. Hakari

There is homage and there's not giving credit where credit is due. If Avatar really is that similar to "Joe," then Cameron at the very least should add a "inspired by" or "suggested by" credit. And it's not a knock against Cameron's skills as a filmmaker, that he can't come up with anything himself. I'm sure Avatar will be a solid flick, but if he borrowed that liberally, then some acknowledgment is in order.

Wait, wait, wait. Let me get this straight: You're saying that regardless of whether or not Avatar was actually inspired in any way, shape or form by "Joe," Cameron should give credit to it simply because it's similar? What if he never read Joe? What if Joe never entered his head when he was writing it? What then? He should give an 'inspired by" credit to something that didn't actually inspire him? Sorry, Buck, but this is the exact opposite of sanity if you ask me.

Originally Posted by someguy

I can easily give you a counter example and point out that an original sci-fi came out this year called Moon. It was an "original piece" that had a lot of obvious inspirations (but like you said everything 'original' is inspired by something else nowadays) but people loved it. They thought it was a great original sci-fi movie that was mature and some people have even started a grassroots campaign to get Sam Rockwell nominated. You can say that people still hate it and call it a ripoff, but every movie will have that reaction by some people no matter what. You've seen the amount of love Moon has gotten on here and other places online, and it was largely praised for being something refreshing and original.

That movie wasn't popular enough to have a backlash. Believe you-me, had that movie been hyped up as much as Avatar, people would be grasping at straws at this point trying to find movies that it 'ripped off,' just as they do with every new original hyped up piece that isn't adapted from something else.

[Shinigami]

Avatar doesn't scream See me for my original storytelling. Barely even whispers it.
It's a spectacle, and the movie has always been hyped as a revolutionary means towards a similar storytelling end. I don't know what everyone here is reading to make them think otherwise. Browsing the online community and entertainment magazines, Avatar's bulkhype is committed to praising and anticipating the technology Cameron is using to bring his story to life. This will blow you away because of my originality in realizing this vision. It will be unlike anything you've seen before. The 3d technology, the detail, the depth, what modern technology has allowed...

The stories sound similar. But the story already sounded similar to me as a savvy moviegoer. I have no idea if this is copyright infringement or not. I'm not familiar with the book.

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by LordSimen

Wait, wait, wait. Let me get this straight: You're saying that regardless of whether or not Avatar was actually inspired in any way, shape or form by "Joe," Cameron should give credit to it simply because it's similar? What if he never read Joe? What if Joe never entered his head when he was writing it? What then? He should give an 'inspired by" credit to something that didn't actually inspire him? Sorry, Buck, but this is the exact opposite of sanity if you ask me.

Jesus man, It's pretty damn obvious that AJ meant that Cameron should only give the 'inspired by' credit if he had actually read the novella first. He never said he should give it even if he hadn't heard or read it.



Ps: I wish you'd stop using the phrase 'I hate people'. It make you look like a whining baby.

[Mr. Moe]

Has anyone actually read this story?

The story is nothing like Avatar, only in that it has a paralyzed man projecting his consciousness into another body (a concept which has been used in many stories and even a TV series). The actual story and plot for Call Me Joe is FAR different than Avatar's.

That summery of Call Me Joe in the original post is grossly twisted into a 'reaching for straws' attempt to sound similar to Avatar. It's kind of like this comparison:


Looks like Mr. Lucas has a lawsuit in his hands

[LordSimen]

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Jesus man, It's pretty damn obvious that AJ meant that Cameron should only give the 'inspired by' credit if he had actually read the novella first. He never said he should give it even if he hadn't heard or read it.

Huh? How is it obvious? Was it the part where he said if the movie is that similar to the previous work, he should put an inspired by credit? Because that's what he said, if they're similar, not if one had actually inspired the other.

Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Ps: I wish you'd stop using the phrase 'I hate people'. It make you look like a whining baby.

I wish you'd mind your own business, but hey, I suppose we can't all get what we want.

[Tweek]

Originally Posted by Shinigami

Avatar doesn't scream See me for my original storytelling.

Pretty much. Are people raving about the story or how he's made the movie? I'm slightly out of the loop.

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally Posted by Silverload

He was not successfully sued. The studio settled out of court. Ellison is now only credited as "acknowledgment to the works of Harlan Ellison".

Cameron once publicly said that Harlan Ellison was an inspiration of his, and Ellison sued him for it. After seeing several interviews with Ellison it is easy to see that the guy is a complete douche bag.

Yeah, it's a real shame that a big meanie like that was allowed to attack a low key, shy, shrinking violet like James Cameron. I doubt he's ever fully recovered.

Cameron made his own bed in the Terminator case by publicly stating (bragging, really) that he'd used two of Harlan's stories as a starting point. That background is a big reason why this has traction in some people's minds. If he's been stupid enough to do it before, that dramatically ups the chances he's done it again. I can't make a definitive call, but Cameron lost the assumption of innocence, at least from me, a long time ago.

None of this changes the fact that he's an excellent director, one who makes films that I generally really enjoy (just as the fact that he's a personal douchebag of the highest rank didn't affect that opinion.) But if he's a ripoff artist, he's a ripoff artist, albeit a talented one.

[Adam J. Hakari]

Say you published a novel. It's not a gigantic success, but it gains an audience over the years and is generally regarded as a solid achievement.

A decade or so later, a filmmaker comes along. He has a big new blockbuster in the works that sounds a lot like your novel. So much so that story elements are so similar, it can't be chalked up to coincidence.

You'd at least question whether or not this filmmaker was a plagiarist? Not accuse him of stealing your work from the start but at least entertain the notion that it's possible?

That, Mr. Simen, is what I meant.

[Heisenberg]

Originally Posted by LordSimen

I wish you'd mind your own business, but hey, I suppose we can't all get what we want.

I was just giving you a heads up, but fair enough.

[LordSimen]

Originally Posted by Adam J. Hakari

Say you published a novel. It's not a gigantic success, but it gains an audience over the years and is generally regarded as a solid achievement.

A decade or so later, a filmmaker comes along. He has a big new blockbuster in the works that sounds a lot like your novel. So much so that story elements are so similar, it can't be chalked up to coincidence.

You'd at least question whether or not this filmmaker was a plagiarist? Not accuse him of stealing your work from the start but at least entertain the notion that it's possible?

That, Mr. Simen, is what I meant.

Call Me Joe is over 5 decades old. It's basic premise of a man putting his brain into some other creature to explore some unknown land has been used a number of times in the history of science fiction way before Cameron ever came up with Avatar. Cameron doesn't seem to have shown any indication that Call Me Joe was an influence in any way, so there's no reason to put an influence by if you weren't in fact influenced by the damn thing in the first place. It ruins the entire purpose of the word "influenced."

[countchocula]

Yeah, Adam, you dumb piece of shit. It's fucking obvious that your opinion is RETARDED. I hate you.

*waits for someone to report this post*

[someguy]

Originally Posted by LordSimen

It's basic premise of a man putting his brain into some other creature to explore some unknown land has been used a number of times in the history of science fiction way before Cameron ever came up with Avatar.

Name them.

[sbunn10]

Simen, the reason Buck said this thread had gone to insanity was because of your reaction to the news. Echo Bravo cited a news story, a few people commented on it, and then out of nowhere, you start cursing the world and "people". Instead of discussing this reasonably, you sparked a hostile back-and-forth, like you always do.

As for the news, I think there are valid points for both sides. If it is indeed so similar, Cameron should consider tacking the guy's name in the credits.. I mean, who gives a shit, nobody reads every name in the credits anyway. However, Simen and Mr. Moe are right in saying that there are tons of similar ideas that don't necessarily follow the same path. Every story has elements from others in the past... BUT the details of this novel do sound very similar to Avatar.

[echo_bravo]

Originally Posted by sbunn10

As for the news, I think there are valid points for both sides. If it is indeed so similar, Cameron should consider tacking the guy's name in the credits.. I mean, who gives a shit, nobody reads every name in the credits anyway. However, Simen and Mr. Moe are right in saying that there are tons of similar ideas that don't necessarily follow the same path. Every story has elements from others in the past... BUT the details of this novel do sound very similar to Avatar.

This is what I am thinking as well.

When I first heard the news, I brushed it off as some bitter washed up author that just wanted some cash, BUT then I heard about the Terminator lawsuit (which I was completely unaware of up until now).

Cameron has stated in interviews that he was inspired by all the Science Fiction novels that he read as a little kid. Maybe he did read Call Me Joe way back when he was a little kid and "conveniently" forgot about it. I dont know.

What really boggles my mind is that all of this is coming out NOW. Doesnt James Cameron have assistants and lawyers that would be aware of this a long time ago, so he wouldnt get sued again (like he did with Terminator)? You would think Cameron's people would be on top of shit like this.

[Adam J. Hakari]

Originally Posted by LordSimen

Cameron doesn't seem to have shown any indication that Call Me Joe was an influence in any way, so there's no reason to put an influence by if you weren't in fact influenced by the damn thing in the first place. It ruins the entire purpose of the word "influenced."

So Cameron is off the hook just because he hasn't said "Joe" was an inspiration?

I'm going to start up a soda company called Pepsi. But that other company called Pepsi wasn't an inspiration, so I'm exempt from criticism and lawsuits. Go me!

[CosmicPuppet]

Originally Posted by Adam J. Hakari

I'm going to start up a soda company called Pepsi. But that other company called Pepsi wasn't an inspiration, so I'm exempt from criticism and lawsuits. Go me!

This sounds like a great idea Adam. I've been looking for a new business to be a part of and I have $10,000 to offer as start-up money. Have your people contact my people and then we can take those people out to Chuck E. Cheese to celebrate. Let's make this happen!

[countchocula]

I shall start a rival company called Coca-Cola. I'll promote it through my other start-up Microsoft.

[Tweek]

Originally Posted by CosmicPuppet

This sounds like a great idea Adam. I've been looking for a new business to be a part of and I have $10,000 to offer as start-up money. Have your people contact my people and then we can take those people out to Chuck E. Cheese to celebrate. Let's make this happen!

I call Junior Executive Vice President!

[ElderPredator]

The only thing Cameron is guilty of is being way too awesome!

[Buck Turgidson]

Originally Posted by sbunn10

Simen, the reason Buck said this thread had gone to insanity was because of your reaction to the news.

Not exactly, although now that you mention it, it serves as a comment on that aspect, too.

I was mainly lauding someguy and Adam because they both, as they usually do, took a step back and looked at the case soberly. In doing research about this when I posted it, I ran into tons and tons of user comments at various boards which took the form of either "Who cares? There's nothing new under the sun." which I find disingenuous and lazy or "Who cares? Cameron is great and I don't give a shit about any of this!" which is even worse than disingenuous. We were starting to see both of those notions emerge when those two guys restored some balance and sense to the thread.

Originally Posted by echo_bravo

What really boggles my mind is that all of this is coming out NOW. Doesnt James Cameron have assistants and lawyers that would be aware of this a long time ago, so he wouldnt get sued again (like he did with Terminator)? You would think Cameron's people would be on top of shit like this.

That is an excellent point, which I've seen raised a couple of places, as well. Cameron has always done things his own way and he's generally been successful swimming against the current. Sometimes, that breeds hubris and it looks like that's the case here.

If he was dumb enough to brag about ripping off Harlan when he was a neophyte director 20+ years ago I doubt the subsequent success he's had has dulled the edge of that arrogance much. Quite the contrary, in fact.

[moose1132]

When the concept is put that way, it sounds like Monkey Shines too. We can't really tell until we see the movie I guess. Either way, I think Cameron is a little too highly regarded because of the success of Titanic. I haven't been impressed with anything he's done in over 15 years.

[Tagia_Romero]

Originally Posted by countchocula

Titanic is awfully similar to A Night to Remember.

REALLY?!

[Badbird]

Avatar and Delgo, side by side:

http://www.movieline.com/2009/08/the...-and-delgo.php

http://img.denihilation.com/delgovatar.html