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David Ayer keeps explaining away The Joker

08.11.2016

jared leto, the joker, suicide squad, dc extended universe,

For a character that is in SUICIDE SQUAD for only about seven minutes of total screen time, there is a lot of attention being paid to various details of Jared Leto's Joker. It doesn't matter that we are sure to get more Joker as the DC Extended Universe plays on, be it in JUSTICE LEAGUE or a solo Batman movie or whatever other titles Warner Bros. is going to add to their slate for the next few years. Fans have questions about different things pertaining to the Joker, and that means the answers to come will explain away plenty of things we could be learning about the character along the way.

In fact, this is one of the problems that fan culture has right now is a feeling of entitlement to know everything right now. There is no patience anymore to let stories play out, to let details be revealed along the way. No... we want what we want, and we want it now. As a result, that leads to storytellers and filmmakers and studios trying to placate fan bases in order to keep them happy at all times, and now we have a disintegration of a system that once let us use our imaginations to fill in the blanks or that made us sit and wait until the story found the right time to reveal things to us. 

David Ayer, in speaking to Empire, has gone into detail about why the Joker has a "Damaged" tattoo on his forehead and why he's sporting a grill... as if we really needed to know that now. But people have been asking about them relentlessly, so we're going to find out regardless. 

"This is sort of my personal thing and maybe less about a larger connection. But Joker killed Robin and Batman basically smashes his teeth out and locks him up in Arkham Asylum. It’s in the asylum where Joker would have done the ‘damaged’ tattoo as a message to Batman saying, 'You’ve damaged me. I was so beautiful before and now you’ve destroyed my face.' That’s where the grill comes from."

The more you know, I guess...

Now wouldn't that have been something much cooler to see in a movie, in order to learn about the pain the Joker has caused for Batman with his loss and the Bat's methods for trying to treat it rather than being told in this manner? Of course it would have. Showing is always better than telling, but that's what a lack of patience and a sense of entitlement will get you. But what's the point of a movie taking time to feature what might be an important moment in us understanding the Batman-Joker relationship in this DCEU if we already know about it?

Good things come to those who wait... This might have been one of them had we been able to do that.

CLICK IMAGE TO OPEN GALLERY & SEE MORE PICS...

Source: Empire

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6:19PM on 08/12/2016
You don't get to justify stupid-looking characterization choices with information that's outside the scope of the movie. That's not how this works. If you wanted that to be the justification, then it should have been in the movie. Period. The only way you can get away with that is if you can point to direct evidence in the film that this information was reasonably implied. I see no such thing.
You don't get to justify stupid-looking characterization choices with information that's outside the scope of the movie. That's not how this works. If you wanted that to be the justification, then it should have been in the movie. Period. The only way you can get away with that is if you can point to direct evidence in the film that this information was reasonably implied. I see no such thing.
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9:48AM on 08/12/2016
This all sounds like the messed up X-Men timeline. Doesn't add up, but let's slide this explanation in for our sloppy script writing.
This all sounds like the messed up X-Men timeline. Doesn't add up, but let's slide this explanation in for our sloppy script writing.
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11:39PM on 08/11/2016
Ugh, if the Joker really wanted "damaged" written on his forehead he wouldn't have bothered with tattoos and just carved that shit into his face.
This is turning into The Mandarin all over again, only more justified this time.
Ugh, if the Joker really wanted "damaged" written on his forehead he wouldn't have bothered with tattoos and just carved that shit into his face.
This is turning into The Mandarin all over again, only more justified this time.
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+5
11:08PM on 08/11/2016

BUT! BUT! BUT!!!

Joker is already in Arkham with the tattoo and grill when he meets Harleen, before he turns her into Harley.
and Harley Quinn was an accomplice to Robin's murder (as stated in the movie).
so there's a time travel angle?
Joker is already in Arkham with the tattoo and grill when he meets Harleen, before he turns her into Harley.
and Harley Quinn was an accomplice to Robin's murder (as stated in the movie).
so there's a time travel angle?
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9:18AM on 08/12/2016
BUSTED!!! I hadn't thought of that, but the timeline makes no sense at all. This is what happens when you tell a story backwards and go for the early cash-in rather than the slow build that Marvel did.
BUSTED!!! I hadn't thought of that, but the timeline makes no sense at all. This is what happens when you tell a story backwards and go for the early cash-in rather than the slow build that Marvel did.
7:24PM on 08/11/2016
I thought the whole Batman punching out Joker's teeth thing was already implied? No one really needed to come out and explain what happened there, it was rather easy to figure out. As for the tattoo, I could see him getting it to remind Batman, and the world, that everyone he encounters he damages in some way. After all, it's on his forehead and everyone he comes into contact with are the ones who will see it. Obviously in Batman's case, he took someone close to him away, all but guaranteeing a
I thought the whole Batman punching out Joker's teeth thing was already implied? No one really needed to come out and explain what happened there, it was rather easy to figure out. As for the tattoo, I could see him getting it to remind Batman, and the world, that everyone he encounters he damages in some way. After all, it's on his forehead and everyone he comes into contact with are the ones who will see it. Obviously in Batman's case, he took someone close to him away, all but guaranteeing a hefty toll on his mental state.
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6:54PM on 08/11/2016

I fucking HATE this "Joker"

Dd no one designing this "Joker" pick up on the subtlety of what the symbolism of both Batman and the Joker were. Batman is the man that looks like a monster that is actually fighting for the good. He is the one you're scared to look at but will defend you to the death. Joker is the clown. The symbol of a lot of childhood joy (for most lol), friendly and approachable. Yet Joker despite his outward appearance is the homicidal sociopath that will kill you without a second thought. The whole point
Dd no one designing this "Joker" pick up on the subtlety of what the symbolism of both Batman and the Joker were. Batman is the man that looks like a monster that is actually fighting for the good. He is the one you're scared to look at but will defend you to the death. Joker is the clown. The symbol of a lot of childhood joy (for most lol), friendly and approachable. Yet Joker despite his outward appearance is the homicidal sociopath that will kill you without a second thought. The whole point is Batman is supposed to look like the monster but be good, and Joker is supposed to look more like a clown but be evil. His look has evolved over time to some degree, and yes I will say that Ledgers look also diverged a little, but what we're presented with in Suicide Squad is a fucking abomination. Losing all sense of subtlety and beating the audience over the head with "Joker is a bad guy" like we the audience never met the character before. He comes across as a whiny spoiled emo corner wannabe whiteboy gansta. Basically everything the Joker is truly not. And now on top of all the fuck ups with this character you mess with the one thing that truly defines him...mystery. We're not supposed to know anything about him other than his rivalry with Batman and his sociopathic tendencies. Origins of any sort should NEVER be known about him.
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7:31PM on 08/11/2016
Nothing about the Joker's look, in just about any incarnation, has ever been a representation of something friendly or approachable or even a reference to a symbol that displays those characteristics. It is a deformity of that very symbol, like something out of a nightmare. His outward appearance has always given off bad vibes and there isn't a shred of subtlety to it at all, no matter which version were talking about here. Both Batman and Joker are two people you wouldn't want to run into on a
Nothing about the Joker's look, in just about any incarnation, has ever been a representation of something friendly or approachable or even a reference to a symbol that displays those characteristics. It is a deformity of that very symbol, like something out of a nightmare. His outward appearance has always given off bad vibes and there isn't a shred of subtlety to it at all, no matter which version were talking about here. Both Batman and Joker are two people you wouldn't want to run into on a street based upon their appearances alone.
7:55PM on 08/11/2016
Ummm that was kind of my whole point. The reversal of roles. The scary bat being the symbol of good and justice for a city. The typical happiness of a clown being the perverted symbol of all that horrible and evil within the city. I read an interview piece with Bob Kane a long time ago and it touched on this very dichotomy.
Ummm that was kind of my whole point. The reversal of roles. The scary bat being the symbol of good and justice for a city. The typical happiness of a clown being the perverted symbol of all that horrible and evil within the city. I read an interview piece with Bob Kane a long time ago and it touched on this very dichotomy.
11:29PM on 08/11/2016
Truth!! You are absolutely spot on! It's funny how people like Steve up there try to excuse it all away. He totally missed your point and if you read his own comment above yours, he's just making any excuse he can for this trash. It's funny how these same people excused away synder for making superman kill as well. These are basic, important, long established characteristics that just prove they have completely missed the point of these characters
Truth!! You are absolutely spot on! It's funny how people like Steve up there try to excuse it all away. He totally missed your point and if you read his own comment above yours, he's just making any excuse he can for this trash. It's funny how these same people excused away synder for making superman kill as well. These are basic, important, long established characteristics that just prove they have completely missed the point of these characters
6:32PM on 08/11/2016
If you have to explain something as trivial as this then its a bad idea in the first place. I still don't believe that Joker would have 'damaged' on his forehead. I bet this version has Psych on one ass cheek and Path on the other with his asshole as the O in the middle.
If you have to explain something as trivial as this then its a bad idea in the first place. I still don't believe that Joker would have 'damaged' on his forehead. I bet this version has Psych on one ass cheek and Path on the other with his asshole as the O in the middle.
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6:18PM on 08/11/2016

For the love of god

when will we get a good R rated story of Arkham Asylum movie ? I been waiting for a very good story to come out for IDK how long.
when will we get a good R rated story of Arkham Asylum movie ? I been waiting for a very good story to come out for IDK how long.
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6:16PM on 08/11/2016
Oh. Now I no longer think it's looks crappy...NOT! (Bob_Loblaw wishes he thought of something better to say)
Oh. Now I no longer think it's looks crappy...NOT! (Bob_Loblaw wishes he thought of something better to say)
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5:50PM on 08/11/2016

Guessed this

I just saw Suicide Squad today, and while enjoying the scenes with Joker and Harley, the thought crossed my mind that the Joker's appearance had something to do with a previous encounter with Batman. I figured that Batman knocked most of his teeth out considering we met a darker Batman in Dawn of Justice. That being said, I thought Suicide Squad was a cool flick. I'm not sure why critics are bashing the DCEU so much. Sure, the theatrical cut of Dawn of Justice was sloppy, but I thought the
I just saw Suicide Squad today, and while enjoying the scenes with Joker and Harley, the thought crossed my mind that the Joker's appearance had something to do with a previous encounter with Batman. I figured that Batman knocked most of his teeth out considering we met a darker Batman in Dawn of Justice. That being said, I thought Suicide Squad was a cool flick. I'm not sure why critics are bashing the DCEU so much. Sure, the theatrical cut of Dawn of Justice was sloppy, but I thought the Ultimate Cut was a lot better. I feel like bashing the DCEU is becoming a fad in Hollywood.
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6:08PM on 08/11/2016
I find it strange that people think only critics haven't liked these movies. I haven't like them very much yet, and neither have most of the people I know. It's great if you liked them, that's a good thing, but it wasn't audience vs critics for any of these flicks yet, that's why the score is still relatively low on the user end for Suicide Squad as well.
I find it strange that people think only critics haven't liked these movies. I haven't like them very much yet, and neither have most of the people I know. It's great if you liked them, that's a good thing, but it wasn't audience vs critics for any of these flicks yet, that's why the score is still relatively low on the user end for Suicide Squad as well.
6:17PM on 08/11/2016
26% to 71% on Rotten Tomatoes. 40% to 69% on IMDb. That seems like a significant difference to me.
26% to 71% on Rotten Tomatoes. 40% to 69% on IMDb. That seems like a significant difference to me.
6:27PM on 08/11/2016
Most people dont vote on those things. You know who does? Dumb insecure fanboys
Most people dont vote on those things. You know who does? Dumb insecure fanboys
6:46PM on 08/11/2016
Thanks for supporting your claim with such solid evidence.
Thanks for supporting your claim with such solid evidence.
5:45PM on 08/11/2016

Ayer based Joker's design on Ninja from Die Antwoord

Yolandi put Ayer on blast in an Instagram post about it. Seeing both side by side, it makes sense. Nevermind the casting, or Leto's performance. The Joker's Hot Topic Cholo design was so tacky and forced, that it had to be taken from somewhere. It came off as lazy and overdone at the same time.
Yolandi put Ayer on blast in an Instagram post about it. Seeing both side by side, it makes sense. Nevermind the casting, or Leto's performance. The Joker's Hot Topic Cholo design was so tacky and forced, that it had to be taken from somewhere. It came off as lazy and overdone at the same time.
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6:38PM on 08/11/2016
Don't you think the timing is well placed for them to come out and say that? Not like all of a sudden the Joker was revealed to the world. They've seen him for almost a year now.
Don't you think the timing is well placed for them to come out and say that? Not like all of a sudden the Joker was revealed to the world. They've seen him for almost a year now.
8:25AM on 08/12/2016
1twobucklemybelt, the timing is definitely suspect. And given how meta Die Antwoord were in "Chappie", I wouldn't put it past them to schedule their outrage to coincide with the release of this movie.
1twobucklemybelt, the timing is definitely suspect. And given how meta Die Antwoord were in "Chappie", I wouldn't put it past them to schedule their outrage to coincide with the release of this movie.
+3
5:41PM on 08/11/2016

Fine explanation but doesn't make sense

Ayer's explanation doesn't really add up. The movie stated that Harley was involved in Robin's death. But we see Joker has the tattoo and broken teeth when Harley is still his shrink in jail. Timeline doesn't fit.
Ayer's explanation doesn't really add up. The movie stated that Harley was involved in Robin's death. But we see Joker has the tattoo and broken teeth when Harley is still his shrink in jail. Timeline doesn't fit.
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6:39PM on 08/11/2016
Sometimes a writer or director will have motivations or explanations worked out to explain backstory in case an actor needs to know, doesn't mean the studio can't come along later and throw some graphics on the screen without ever asking them filmmakers. You ever think of that? I'm guessing not.
Sometimes a writer or director will have motivations or explanations worked out to explain backstory in case an actor needs to know, doesn't mean the studio can't come along later and throw some graphics on the screen without ever asking them filmmakers. You ever think of that? I'm guessing not.
7:51AM on 08/12/2016
1twobucklemybelt That could be the weakest counter argument I've heard yet. Now it's going to be explained away by saying the studio went rogue with the graphics? Maybe, like MoS and even more so BvS, this just a poorly written, planned, executed film with a plot hole so big you can fit that entire cheesy joker mobile in it. You ever think of that? I'm guessing not
1twobucklemybelt That could be the weakest counter argument I've heard yet. Now it's going to be explained away by saying the studio went rogue with the graphics? Maybe, like MoS and even more so BvS, this just a poorly written, planned, executed film with a plot hole so big you can fit that entire cheesy joker mobile in it. You ever think of that? I'm guessing not
9:51AM on 08/12/2016
I must agree with RobKong on this one. That was a lame excuse 1twobucklemybelt that you condescendingly passed off as gospel. I said it's just as likely (if not more so given the quality of the overall film) that this a tacked on "cool idea" that was not thought through enough.

I must agree with RobKong on this one. That was a lame excuse 1twobucklemybelt that you condescendingly passed off as gospel. I said it's just as likely (if not more so given the quality of the overall film) that this a tacked on "cool idea" that was not thought through enough.

5:22PM on 08/11/2016

Thanks, but unnecessary.

If they have a plan, let it run it's course. So many people were disappointed to see all the destruction in MoS, and yet, BvS wouldn't work without it. Most of the time, what is left out, get's explained later, or is trivial. This tidbit about Joker's teeth being punched in by the Bat, is (honestly) pretty awesome. I hope that a scene of this sort still gets put on film in the future. It would be a tragedy if they decided it wasn't necessary because we've already been given the heads up.
If they have a plan, let it run it's course. So many people were disappointed to see all the destruction in MoS, and yet, BvS wouldn't work without it. Most of the time, what is left out, get's explained later, or is trivial. This tidbit about Joker's teeth being punched in by the Bat, is (honestly) pretty awesome. I hope that a scene of this sort still gets put on film in the future. It would be a tragedy if they decided it wasn't necessary because we've already been given the heads up.
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+0
4:30PM on 08/11/2016
I say let the fans demand all they want, but don't feel obligated to give in to them. . If you continue giving in it's only going to get worse. Do what you're going to do and don't change anything. You're the professionals, they're not. Sure people will be mad but they're still going to see the next movie.
I say let the fans demand all they want, but don't feel obligated to give in to them. . If you continue giving in it's only going to get worse. Do what you're going to do and don't change anything. You're the professionals, they're not. Sure people will be mad but they're still going to see the next movie.
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5:01PM on 08/11/2016
Actually, there's no guarantee that they would see the next one. There's plenty of movies I don't see because they don't interest me. The film industry is not art for arts sake in this type of situation, they do need and want a large audience. The fact is all the advertising and comic con presentations are meant to help bring in more money. If people don't like what your selling, you make it something they do want. A great deal of general audiences don't go to see every movie that comes out,
Actually, there's no guarantee that they would see the next one. There's plenty of movies I don't see because they don't interest me. The film industry is not art for arts sake in this type of situation, they do need and want a large audience. The fact is all the advertising and comic con presentations are meant to help bring in more money. If people don't like what your selling, you make it something they do want. A great deal of general audiences don't go to see every movie that comes out, and a lot of people wait for redbox, or dollar theaters to carry movies they weren't sold on. Catering to your audience can be the point when this much money is at stake.
5:37PM on 08/11/2016
I'm not talking about the general audience, rather the nagging fans who are demanding to know things that would be better left to the future or the imagination, or to have changes made that in the end makes for a lesser, rushed final product. Prior to comic con and the advent of the internet, movies were made that fans enjoyed just fine. For every person bitching that they want this or that to happen, there's another person who would have preferred it the way it was originally meant to be.
I'm not talking about the general audience, rather the nagging fans who are demanding to know things that would be better left to the future or the imagination, or to have changes made that in the end makes for a lesser, rushed final product. Prior to comic con and the advent of the internet, movies were made that fans enjoyed just fine. For every person bitching that they want this or that to happen, there's another person who would have preferred it the way it was originally meant to be.
6:01PM on 08/11/2016
I don't see any issue with hearing the passionate members of your audience, it doesn't have to mean you change things on a whim, you make judgments based on the source material, the resources available, and the expectations (reasonable and not) of your audience. The audience is more vocal now thanks to the internet, but that can be helpful. In truth, I haven't really seen any caving to the audience, and I don't think considering their desires to be an inherently bad decision. Usually you see
I don't see any issue with hearing the passionate members of your audience, it doesn't have to mean you change things on a whim, you make judgments based on the source material, the resources available, and the expectations (reasonable and not) of your audience. The audience is more vocal now thanks to the internet, but that can be helpful. In truth, I haven't really seen any caving to the audience, and I don't think considering their desires to be an inherently bad decision. Usually you see more nervous executives than anything contributing to less than stellar films. Fans all agree the movie should be great, and executives want the money to roll in, the creative team has the job of making those two things meet, it's not always a blast. If you're making a film based on existing material you should be making it to please those fans and to be accessible to non-fans, that way the fans pull in the others; otherwise you lose the boost from the fan base and are left with the same struggle that original material goes through. Studios sink 100+ million into these flicks because they anticipate that synergy, without it, these comic books flicks would still have smaller budgets that are more common.
6:04PM on 08/11/2016
Sorry, this is turning into a discourse, lol
Sorry, this is turning into a discourse, lol
4:09PM on 08/11/2016
This is sort of my personal thing; I completely agree with j-man below, some characters are just way more interesting when things are left to the imagination. My own personal theory, that helps me accept this joker is that he was once a child actor and had a huge starring role in 1990 where he was left home alone by his family on Christmas and he had to fend off 2 home intruders. The child actor eventually buckled under the pressure of fame and emancipated himself from his parents and moved to
This is sort of my personal thing; I completely agree with j-man below, some characters are just way more interesting when things are left to the imagination. My own personal theory, that helps me accept this joker is that he was once a child actor and had a huge starring role in 1990 where he was left home alone by his family on Christmas and he had to fend off 2 home intruders. The child actor eventually buckled under the pressure of fame and emancipated himself from his parents and moved to Gotham where he started a life of crime...
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5:18PM on 08/11/2016
Finally, a great sequel to Home Alone 2: Lost in New York! Go get'em Kevin!
Finally, a great sequel to Home Alone 2: Lost in New York! Go get'em Kevin!
+6
3:54PM on 08/11/2016
i dont get this obsession with wanting to know everything about every character that appears on screen in a movie. I mean now everyone needs a backstory to backstory. I dont like BVS because Aquaman was just in it with no origin. What you dont fucking know who Aquaman is? Just an example. I know people are tense at BVS for other reasons too, but i constantly hear people being confused about characters etc. Well Boba Fett had no intro he just showed up and i loved him. then he gets killed in the
i dont get this obsession with wanting to know everything about every character that appears on screen in a movie. I mean now everyone needs a backstory to backstory. I dont like BVS because Aquaman was just in it with no origin. What you dont fucking know who Aquaman is? Just an example. I know people are tense at BVS for other reasons too, but i constantly hear people being confused about characters etc. Well Boba Fett had no intro he just showed up and i loved him. then he gets killed in the next movie. So he really didnt do a lot, but still he was cool and when we learned more about him later that was cool too. I didnt need to know every bit of information on him to like him anyway! Anyway lets see where Leto goes with this in future movies.
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5:20PM on 08/11/2016
I wasn't impressed with Leto's performance, so I don't really care where it goes from here, but I do agree with you about the backstory thing generally speaking. Let the unknown history of a character inform their actions, it makes the characters more interesting.
I wasn't impressed with Leto's performance, so I don't really care where it goes from here, but I do agree with you about the backstory thing generally speaking. Let the unknown history of a character inform their actions, it makes the characters more interesting.
6:40PM on 08/11/2016
You're on point my friend.
You're on point my friend.
9:19PM on 08/11/2016
Oh yeah. I'm not saying Leto was good or bad. Just in general everyone needs stuff explained for no reason.
As for joker. It's hard to judge for me. He didn't do any kind of jokery stuff. So not sure if that stuff was cut out or what.
Oh yeah. I'm not saying Leto was good or bad. Just in general everyone needs stuff explained for no reason.
As for joker. It's hard to judge for me. He didn't do any kind of jokery stuff. So not sure if that stuff was cut out or what.
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