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David S. Goyer doesn't believe in the "Superman doesn't kill" rule when it comes to film

Sep. 24, 2013by: Paul Shirey

SPOILERS: If you live in a cave and haven't seen MAN OF STEEL then be warned there are major spoilers discussed here. Best steer clear.

Personally speaking, I thought MAN OF STEEL was the movie to beat this summer, but many felt differently, especially with the controversial ending that involved Superman taking a life. For comic fans and Superman "traditionalists" it was a move that bordered (or crossed) the line of blasphemy. For others, it wasn't a big deal given the circumstances of the story. Either way, the death caused controversy and many turned to both director Zack Snyder and screenwriter David S. Goyer to unleash some fan fury. While speaking at last night's BATFA and BFI Screenwriters' Lecture, Goyer addressed the issue, controversy, and reasoning behind Superman on film taking a life.

"We were pretty sure that was going to be controversial," Goyer said. "It's not like we were deluding ourselves, and we weren't just doing it to be cool. We felt, in the case of Zod, we wanted to put the character in an impossible situation and make an impossible choice.

"This is one area, and I've written comic books as well and this is where I disagree with some of my fellow comic book writers - 'Superman doesn't kill'. It's a rule that exists outside of the narrative and I just don't believe in rules like that. I believe when you're writing film or television, you can't rely on a crutch or rule that exists outside of the narrative of the film.

"So the situation was, Zod says 'I'm not going to stop until you kill me or I kill you.' The reality is no prison on the planet could hold him and in our film Superman can't fly to the moon, and we didn't want to come up with that crutch.

"Also our movie was in a way Superman Begins, he's not really Superman until the end of the film. We wanted him to have had that experience of having taken a life and carry that through onto the next films. Because he's Superman and because people idolise him he will have to hold himself to a higher standard."

Interesting stuff. I know some will feel that Goyer is wrong and that he's betraying tradition, but I tend to agree here. It's not like Superman goes on an intentional murderous rampage (we just call that destruction at the end collateral damage, right?) and I think that the choice was clear within the context of the story. Zod had to die. Plus, I didn't want to deal with him in the sequels, so it all works out.

What do you think? Do you agree or disagree with Goyer's statements?

Man of Steel hits Blu-ray/DVD and digital download on November 12, 2013.

Source: Digital Spy

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2:04PM on 12/27/2013

Superman is a Killer, and always will be!

So superhuman gods come down to earth and start a war against pretty much one person. Now that one person is expected to save everyone, smile, and promote things like peace and love? The kryptonians were trying to perform genocide of the entire human race, and people expect superman to do what? This is a new and original retelling of the story, I do not know why everyone seems to think superman has never killed or is some kind of genius who would find someway for everyone to be happy, including
So superhuman gods come down to earth and start a war against pretty much one person. Now that one person is expected to save everyone, smile, and promote things like peace and love? The kryptonians were trying to perform genocide of the entire human race, and people expect superman to do what? This is a new and original retelling of the story, I do not know why everyone seems to think superman has never killed or is some kind of genius who would find someway for everyone to be happy, including zod. This is far more realistic than any of the old superman movies. Lets be serious if Gods came down to earth and starting throwing down in the middle of NYC there would be A LOT of collateral damage! This is his first actual test as superman, everything else was him learning. Basically I think the people that are upset are mad because superman didn't save any kittens stuck in trees, or walk any old people across the street! The kryptonians are just as strong as superman, and there are more of them, logically it would be hard for one person to save people falling from buildings while elite military are kicking his teeth in! I think man of steel was just a more realistic portrayal of Superman, not this phony I love everyone and everything while kissing puppies and holding hands. Hands down best superman ever, the original superman movie was cheesy and good, but this is just epic.

And for all those so called "fans" who believe this hype about superman not killing is just plain disgusting! Superman has and will kill in the comics if it comes down to it. All you fake fans who believe he doesn't kill should try actually reading the comic books first. In the comics hes killed Zod a bunch of times. You dont just give Zod a hug and expect him to not destroy the earth!
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11:00AM on 12/11/2013
It's all up to interpretation, but I like where they are taking Superman this time around. It's fresh and poses a lot of the same questions we, as mortals, deal with in everyday life. I'm sure many Soldiers and Officers had to make similar decisions. Some imaginable prison made up last minute for Zod would have been cheesy and people would've bitched that out too. Everyone has an opinion, regardless of the outcome.
It's all up to interpretation, but I like where they are taking Superman this time around. It's fresh and poses a lot of the same questions we, as mortals, deal with in everyday life. I'm sure many Soldiers and Officers had to make similar decisions. Some imaginable prison made up last minute for Zod would have been cheesy and people would've bitched that out too. Everyone has an opinion, regardless of the outcome.
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1:56AM on 09/28/2013
"even if taking a life would mean saving millions"...really? bats would rather live with the thought that he let millions die as opposed to taking the life of one criminal?
"even if taking a life would mean saving millions"...really? bats would rather live with the thought that he let millions die as opposed to taking the life of one criminal?
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3:04AM on 09/26/2013

I agree

Batman's rule against killing is explicit, and in-universe. Batman himself says he'll do anything it takes, but will never take a life - even if taking a life would mean saving millions. He simply will not cross that line. Superman might be morally good, but he doesn't abide by such rules, or *any* rules really. His actions are defined by his moral code and emotional attachments to friends and family. So it's silly that writers impose out-of-universe rules on him, and it's even sillier
Batman's rule against killing is explicit, and in-universe. Batman himself says he'll do anything it takes, but will never take a life - even if taking a life would mean saving millions. He simply will not cross that line. Superman might be morally good, but he doesn't abide by such rules, or *any* rules really. His actions are defined by his moral code and emotional attachments to friends and family. So it's silly that writers impose out-of-universe rules on him, and it's even sillier that fans of Superman defend such out-of-universe rules.
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6:34PM on 09/25/2013
Does it really matter if Superman kills or not when the entire movie is terrible? Seems like a moot point. It's like watching a massive car wreck and then complaining that the driver was wearing a black belt with brown shoes.
Does it really matter if Superman kills or not when the entire movie is terrible? Seems like a moot point. It's like watching a massive car wreck and then complaining that the driver was wearing a black belt with brown shoes.
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5:50PM on 09/25/2013

SUPERMAN CAN KILL

he's killed a few times in the comics, when given no other choice, and that was what happened with Zod in MOS, at this point in that universe this is their first introduction to aliens, esp super powered kryptonians so theres nothing on the planet at this point that could hold Zod, no other way to get him into the phantom zone, Superman is still too new at this point to know to take it outside the city, or to the moon as ive heard people say, what would you have him do that made sense? It sets
he's killed a few times in the comics, when given no other choice, and that was what happened with Zod in MOS, at this point in that universe this is their first introduction to aliens, esp super powered kryptonians so theres nothing on the planet at this point that could hold Zod, no other way to get him into the phantom zone, Superman is still too new at this point to know to take it outside the city, or to the moon as ive heard people say, what would you have him do that made sense? It sets up batman vs superman nicely, because Batman knows this alien has killed, giving him more reason not to trust him and to want to take him down, honestly I'm surprised we are still even talking about this, you have to think that with more time as a superhero he will learn to be protecting people first, and will be more seasoned in the next film
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+4
12:35PM on 09/25/2013
I'm sure I've already read this story on here a few months ago. For me, more controversial was showing Clark being bought up with values that propelled him to do nothing when he could have saved pa Kent...only to then ditch all such values and endanger humans unnecessarily. Yes, he's still very wet behind the ears...but then a movie that can show a wet behind the ears hero defeat a seasoned (born to be...no less) warrior in Zod, can surely at least show Superman trying to be Super...or at
I'm sure I've already read this story on here a few months ago. For me, more controversial was showing Clark being bought up with values that propelled him to do nothing when he could have saved pa Kent...only to then ditch all such values and endanger humans unnecessarily. Yes, he's still very wet behind the ears...but then a movie that can show a wet behind the ears hero defeat a seasoned (born to be...no less) warrior in Zod, can surely at least show Superman trying to be Super...or at least show some concern that humans are being put in danger. We get none of that...and the icing on the cake was the unnecessary destruction of US property right at the end...when he could have just put it down and made his point. I have a bigger deal with such issues then the taking of a life...given the context of it.
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-2
12:26PM on 09/25/2013

Lack of creativity

I really like the idea of an idol who doesn't kill. This would truly be a figure humanity could look up to. However, Superman isn't real. The [link] will make him whatever they want to in order to bring in the $$$$. Personally, I think they just couldn't come up with a creative way to get rid of Zod. So hey... let's just kill him off and be done with it. I'm surprised this is what people are focusing on considering there's a dozen other things wrong with this movie.
I really like the idea of an idol who doesn't kill. This would truly be a figure humanity could look up to. However, Superman isn't real. The [link] will make him whatever they want to in order to bring in the $$$$. Personally, I think they just couldn't come up with a creative way to get rid of Zod. So hey... let's just kill him off and be done with it. I'm surprised this is what people are focusing on considering there's a dozen other things wrong with this movie.
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11:28AM on 09/25/2013

So, his Batman won't kill....

...but his Superman will. Perfect sense. I didn't care either way.
...but his Superman will. Perfect sense. I didn't care either way.
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11:11AM on 09/25/2013
This is STILL an issue, really?? Superman has killed multiple times in the comics, so this did not come out of left field and everyone complaining about it doesn't really know the character, they think they know but they don't. I loved the film and am looking forward to the sequel.

Ya know, Iron Man 3 completely destroys his main villain and people cheer and call it brave & good. Superman does something that IS in character and people bitch and whine. WTF?
This is STILL an issue, really?? Superman has killed multiple times in the comics, so this did not come out of left field and everyone complaining about it doesn't really know the character, they think they know but they don't. I loved the film and am looking forward to the sequel.

Ya know, Iron Man 3 completely destroys his main villain and people cheer and call it brave & good. Superman does something that IS in character and people bitch and whine. WTF?
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-6
6:15AM on 09/25/2013

Superman 2

Everyone is using Superman 2 as an example that Superman kills. Come on folks, its never clear. He depowers them and they got thrown or fall into the fog thats covering the ground. Judging from the tone of the movie and the characteristics of Reeves Superman its more likely that Zod and Co. were imprisoned in some kind of Limbo. Just saying.
Everyone is using Superman 2 as an example that Superman kills. Come on folks, its never clear. He depowers them and they got thrown or fall into the fog thats covering the ground. Judging from the tone of the movie and the characteristics of Reeves Superman its more likely that Zod and Co. were imprisoned in some kind of Limbo. Just saying.
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+5
5:06AM on 09/25/2013

Nothing new

I don't get all this uproar about Superman killing Zod in MoS. Didn't Christopher Reeves' Superman also kill Zod in Superman 2?
MoS - Superman - faced with a decision that the only way to stop an equally powerful foe was to kill him
Superman 2 - Superman facing a now powerless enemy that could easily have been imprisoned decides to crush his hand and then throw him at a wall before allowing him to die in the icy depths.

So which Superman is the moral one again?
I don't get all this uproar about Superman killing Zod in MoS. Didn't Christopher Reeves' Superman also kill Zod in Superman 2?
MoS - Superman - faced with a decision that the only way to stop an equally powerful foe was to kill him
Superman 2 - Superman facing a now powerless enemy that could easily have been imprisoned decides to crush his hand and then throw him at a wall before allowing him to die in the icy depths.

So which Superman is the moral one again?
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12:32AM on 09/25/2013
It wasn't his choice to kill Zod that was a big deal to me, it was more the fact that he was seemingly oblivious to all the others who likely died from his recklessness that made his final decision to kill Zod seem so petty. He's just killed thousands of innocent people and now he's having a tough time deciding to kill the main villain. Wake up Superman. Should be an easy choice for you.
It wasn't his choice to kill Zod that was a big deal to me, it was more the fact that he was seemingly oblivious to all the others who likely died from his recklessness that made his final decision to kill Zod seem so petty. He's just killed thousands of innocent people and now he's having a tough time deciding to kill the main villain. Wake up Superman. Should be an easy choice for you.
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3:21AM on 09/25/2013
Really though? You don't understand that in an intergalactic-sized battle, it takes Zod threatening a family to make Superman realize that he needs to be finally stopped? It's called recurring themes, character motives, storytelling.
Wake up, Patrick Stewart.
Really though? You don't understand that in an intergalactic-sized battle, it takes Zod threatening a family to make Superman realize that he needs to be finally stopped? It's called recurring themes, character motives, storytelling.
Wake up, Patrick Stewart.
3:58AM on 09/25/2013
The lives of the innocents are more important than the lives of the villain. Patrick Stewart makes a good point
The lives of the innocents are more important than the lives of the villain. Patrick Stewart makes a good point
3:07AM on 09/26/2013
You mean Shawn makes a good point. Patrick Stewart's point is crap
You mean Shawn makes a good point. Patrick Stewart's point is crap
12:20AM on 09/25/2013
thanks for the spoiler warning...yet you still put the actual spoiler in the headline.
i figured that something like this happened when i heard about a 'controversial ending', but thanks for confirming it.
thanks for the spoiler warning...yet you still put the actual spoiler in the headline.
i figured that something like this happened when i heard about a 'controversial ending', but thanks for confirming it.
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+3
10:37PM on 09/24/2013
The 'S' means hope... and then Superman lets 129,000 people die.

Damn, that's more cold blooded than Bane.
[link]

Oh did Superman also kill Zod? Sorry, I missed that after the horror of Superman's genocide.
The 'S' means hope... and then Superman lets 129,000 people die.

Damn, that's more cold blooded than Bane.
[link]

Oh did Superman also kill Zod? Sorry, I missed that after the horror of Superman's genocide.
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5:19PM on 09/25/2013
This shit cracks me up. Nobody cares when half of New York is leveled in The Avengers, (which they shouldn't anyways because it's a damn movie) but suddenly when major destruction reigns down upon Metropolis in the climax of Man of Steel it's a big deal. You act as if Superman wantonly committed genocide because he couldn't save everyone.in the city. What was he supposed to do? The whole point of the film was to depict what Superman would be like in a world closer to ours; a darker, more
This shit cracks me up. Nobody cares when half of New York is leveled in The Avengers, (which they shouldn't anyways because it's a damn movie) but suddenly when major destruction reigns down upon Metropolis in the climax of Man of Steel it's a big deal. You act as if Superman wantonly committed genocide because he couldn't save everyone.in the city. What was he supposed to do? The whole point of the film was to depict what Superman would be like in a world closer to ours; a darker, more grittier take on the character. Zod made it clear that Superman only had two choices; he could let Zod kill him, after which Zod would kill all of humanity, or he could kill Zod. Running away wasn't an option. If Superman had done that I don't think Zod would of followed because he really wasn't as gullible as Terrence Stamp's portrayal of the character. I think he would have figured Superman for a coward and killed everyone left in Metropolis.

Guess you comic book affectionados only like mass destruction in your movies if no one gets hurt. Aliens attacked New York and destroyed tons of shit, but it's ok because we saved EVERYONE! And everyone lived happily ever after in cliche comic book land...
9:08PM on 09/25/2013
You make no sense. Half of New York was not destroyed in The Avengers. In fact, not a single building even fell. Sure there was damage, some explosions, and a few buildings had chunks knocked off of them, but that was it. Plus, during the entire battle, the heroes were focusing on SAVING PEOPLE. They were evacuating buildings, getting help from cops & firemen to move civilians into safe areas. They fought to keep the monsters away from crowed areas.

In Man of Steel, the city was literally
You make no sense. Half of New York was not destroyed in The Avengers. In fact, not a single building even fell. Sure there was damage, some explosions, and a few buildings had chunks knocked off of them, but that was it. Plus, during the entire battle, the heroes were focusing on SAVING PEOPLE. They were evacuating buildings, getting help from cops & firemen to move civilians into safe areas. They fought to keep the monsters away from crowed areas.

In Man of Steel, the city was literally being flattened into a pancake. LITERALLY. That machine was smashing entire city blocks into nothing but dust. Entire buildings were being knocked over during the fist fight. Whenever these buildings fell we actually saw people falling out of the windows and the sky was literally raining bodies. LITERALLY. This film was going out of its way to evoke the 9/11 images hardcore, with bodies falling to their death and buildings collapsing.

It is kind of disturbing that someone would take a kid's superhero and turn it into something like that. It's like trying to turn Indiana Jones 5 into Saving Private Ryan 2. It's just stupid to try and turn over-the-top superheroes into realistic portrayals of horror. Why hijack a fantasy that was meant for children & familys, and try to make a 9/11ish horror out of it? I'm sorry, but MoS is like something a sociopathic emo teenager would write about in a poorly written fan-fiction.
6:51PM on 09/27/2013
Yeah, Aliens attack New York and barely anyone dies/no buildings are reduced to rubble. That makes tons of sense. Just another example of how kid friendly Marvel keeps everything. I'm sure superman would have been able to save plenty more people if his enemies were so easily beaten like the pussy aliens in The Avengers. And sure, Superman is definitely aimed at kids, but it also appeals to adults as well. Why limit the target audience? So you developed that syndrome in which you think every
Yeah, Aliens attack New York and barely anyone dies/no buildings are reduced to rubble. That makes tons of sense. Just another example of how kid friendly Marvel keeps everything. I'm sure superman would have been able to save plenty more people if his enemies were so easily beaten like the pussy aliens in The Avengers. And sure, Superman is definitely aimed at kids, but it also appeals to adults as well. Why limit the target audience? So you developed that syndrome in which you think every post 9/11 movie that contains a building falling over is trying to evoke feelings of that tragic day, eh? Get real. Buildings have been blown up and knocked over for decades in the world of cinema. Saying this film was going for a 9/11 feel with the climax is really, really reaching.
10:18PM on 09/24/2013
damned good reason not to kill. it actually makes sense. you can't be fighting super villains for 50 years and not expect to kill one or two mass-murdering fuckheads. same reason you can't be a cop or a soldier and not be forced to shoot somebody at least once in your career. didn't like man of steel though. i watched it like a zombie through all the screams and mind-numbing destruction. it failed to engage the audience I believe. a good superman movie is simply one that will have you cheering
damned good reason not to kill. it actually makes sense. you can't be fighting super villains for 50 years and not expect to kill one or two mass-murdering fuckheads. same reason you can't be a cop or a soldier and not be forced to shoot somebody at least once in your career. didn't like man of steel though. i watched it like a zombie through all the screams and mind-numbing destruction. it failed to engage the audience I believe. a good superman movie is simply one that will have you cheering for the guy.
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-3
9:11PM on 09/24/2013
It was about time someone took the lower road and made a SUPERHERO that kick ass and gets rid of the villain ONCE AND FOR ALL.. and nerds are cryin' about it?!

Love the big and loud version of Superman.. LOVED IT! It was exactly what I was expecting from a Snyder film...

If I wanted to see a pussy cry I'd go watch spiderman or the smurfs.

I swear.. fans are getting ridiculously purist lately. PACIFIC RIM.. big robots fighting aliens.. Who cares about characters or drama??? Superman
It was about time someone took the lower road and made a SUPERHERO that kick ass and gets rid of the villain ONCE AND FOR ALL.. and nerds are cryin' about it?!

Love the big and loud version of Superman.. LOVED IT! It was exactly what I was expecting from a Snyder film...

If I wanted to see a pussy cry I'd go watch spiderman or the smurfs.

I swear.. fans are getting ridiculously purist lately. PACIFIC RIM.. big robots fighting aliens.. Who cares about characters or drama??? Superman killing Zod... awesome! What's the big deal?? Khan not being really Khan from the whatever movie before.. who cares?!! Awesome effects and rush...

Gezz.. I go to the movies for action, sci-fi. effects.. if I want character driven stories I'd stay home and watch Breaking Bad.

And to think that grown ups, paranormal activities, and those truly awful films are coming out more and more and more...

I swear, I understand people less and less...
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10:20PM on 09/24/2013
Ladies & gentlemen, I present to you the very reason for why Hollywood sucks ass.
Ladies & gentlemen, I present to you the very reason for why Hollywood sucks ass.
4:00AM on 09/25/2013
Agreed Silverload, Agreed
Agreed Silverload, Agreed
7:25PM on 09/24/2013
I think this makes sense more than any other typical 'first kill' scenario in other movies, comics, and games. For instance in the recent Tomb Raider game we see an innocent Lara goes from someone who never takes a life to killing pirates right and left without any trouble in just mere seconds after her first kill. I mean, it's not like Superman is going to go on a killing spree in the sequel. It makes more sense that he vows to never take a life (again) exactly because he knew how it felt and
I think this makes sense more than any other typical 'first kill' scenario in other movies, comics, and games. For instance in the recent Tomb Raider game we see an innocent Lara goes from someone who never takes a life to killing pirates right and left without any trouble in just mere seconds after her first kill. I mean, it's not like Superman is going to go on a killing spree in the sequel. It makes more sense that he vows to never take a life (again) exactly because he knew how it felt and it weighs heavy on his conscience.
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7:18PM on 09/24/2013
Supes has killed before, in fact he killed 3 nutzo kryptonians in the comics decades ago because he had no choice. Batman used to blow perps away with a revolver back in the day face to face close up. Don't even get me started on the spider, the arrow, and several others.
Supes has killed before, in fact he killed 3 nutzo kryptonians in the comics decades ago because he had no choice. Batman used to blow perps away with a revolver back in the day face to face close up. Don't even get me started on the spider, the arrow, and several others.
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8:57PM on 09/24/2013
Everyone keeps bringing this up about Supes killing Zod & 2 other kryptonians, but it all happened in an alternate universe. Batman also died in that comic. As did Lex Luthor.
Everyone keeps bringing this up about Supes killing Zod & 2 other kryptonians, but it all happened in an alternate universe. Batman also died in that comic. As did Lex Luthor.
+7
7:06PM on 09/24/2013
Of course Goyer's going to use whatever convenient excuse to gloss over his terrible to mediocre at best writing. Snyder's proved he can make a good movie, where as if Goyer writes alone, you're guaranteed a turd. Please pass Batman/Superman to a more capable writer, Warner Bros.!
Of course Goyer's going to use whatever convenient excuse to gloss over his terrible to mediocre at best writing. Snyder's proved he can make a good movie, where as if Goyer writes alone, you're guaranteed a turd. Please pass Batman/Superman to a more capable writer, Warner Bros.!
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6:38PM on 09/24/2013

Good

superheros need to stop being pacifists.
superheros need to stop being pacifists.
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6:15PM on 09/24/2013

Yes!

I agree with Goyer, especially on the last statement. People are so nitpicky, everything in MOS worked organically IMO. I heard people bitching about the amount of destruction on display... well that's reality slapping you in the face folks, the world ain't all sunshine and rainbows and if a crazed, war mongering alien with insane superpowers decided to invade earth, yes there would be tons of destrction. If a powerful defenders decided to help the earth, with powers beyond our own
I agree with Goyer, especially on the last statement. People are so nitpicky, everything in MOS worked organically IMO. I heard people bitching about the amount of destruction on display... well that's reality slapping you in the face folks, the world ain't all sunshine and rainbows and if a crazed, war mongering alien with insane superpowers decided to invade earth, yes there would be tons of destrction. If a powerful defenders decided to help the earth, with powers beyond our own technology... there would be tons of destruction. And if said alien really hated humans and Supes so badly he wouldn't stop until he's dead... then maybe Supes had to kill... and I do believe it's something that will haunt him for some time...
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6:41PM on 09/24/2013
Na sorry this doesn't 'Fly' with me. The whole point of Superman is to be a beacon of light and someone who leads by example. In Superman 2 he flys away from the fight with Zod so that he doesn't put innocent peoples lives at risk, even though he makes himself look like a coward, but because he is beyond that egotistical way of thinking he can make the right choice for the people. The fact he was just smashing through buildings with no care for Human life in Man of Steel is completely against
Na sorry this doesn't 'Fly' with me. The whole point of Superman is to be a beacon of light and someone who leads by example. In Superman 2 he flys away from the fight with Zod so that he doesn't put innocent peoples lives at risk, even though he makes himself look like a coward, but because he is beyond that egotistical way of thinking he can make the right choice for the people. The fact he was just smashing through buildings with no care for Human life in Man of Steel is completely against what makes Superman 'Super'
6:00PM on 09/24/2013
Did Superman kill Zod? I couldn't tell with Snyder SHAKING THE CAMERA SO FUCKING MUCH.
Did Superman kill Zod? I couldn't tell with Snyder SHAKING THE CAMERA SO FUCKING MUCH.
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+12
5:40PM on 09/24/2013
I got the impression that superman killing In Man of Steel affected him so much that he will refuse to do it again. Could be wrong, but that traumatized scream made it seem like it.
I got the impression that superman killing In Man of Steel affected him so much that he will refuse to do it again. Could be wrong, but that traumatized scream made it seem like it.
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5:29PM on 09/24/2013

This movie fucking sucks and I can't believe how delusional everybody is

I don't care what Goyer and Snyder say to try to defend this movie it always makes them look stupider. I don't buy the whole "You can't have a great myth without a ton of people dying" or "He couldn't fly to the moon" bullshit, there were a number of scenes where Superman was in space there's no reason he couldn't fly to the moon, what's holding him back gravity? MoS is a terrible movie at the end of the day. As for the fans who liked this movie they always do a piss poor job of defending it.
I don't care what Goyer and Snyder say to try to defend this movie it always makes them look stupider. I don't buy the whole "You can't have a great myth without a ton of people dying" or "He couldn't fly to the moon" bullshit, there were a number of scenes where Superman was in space there's no reason he couldn't fly to the moon, what's holding him back gravity? MoS is a terrible movie at the end of the day. As for the fans who liked this movie they always do a piss poor job of defending it. No matter what I bring up; the terrible product placement I can't think of one great movie that has this much unapologetic advertising as this movie, leveling a whole city, a building falling on Jennie Olsen and she walks away without a scratch, how useless the whole Daily Planet staff is, the awful dialog "What if I have to tinkle" - Louis Lane, and the god awful rub it in your face that Superman is Jesus through out his entire childhood and then going into a church where his face and Jesus' are shown together. Nobody addresses these issues and always change the subject. If this was the exact same movie but directed by Michael Bay you would all hate it. Grow the fuck up people just because you like Superman or think you're a "nerd" so you're entitled to like every "nerd" movie that comes out doesn't mean you have to like the shit movies. I like Batman but I'm not telling anybody that Batman Forever and Batman & Robin are the best fucking movies in the world. I swear if Green Lantern waited four years to come out, everybody would be sucking that movie's dick too.
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6:30PM on 09/24/2013
Well Im fan of Superman, but not of this movie. So im with you MotherPuncher, just because it has Superman on the label doesnt make it a good film.
Well Im fan of Superman, but not of this movie. So im with you MotherPuncher, just because it has Superman on the label doesnt make it a good film.
8:00PM on 09/24/2013
You didn't like the movie... fine. However, that doesn't give you the right to piss all over those who did. It's called an opinion; deal with it and get over yourself.
You didn't like the movie... fine. However, that doesn't give you the right to piss all over those who did. It's called an opinion; deal with it and get over yourself.
8:22PM on 09/24/2013
@Kurofusen, once again a MoS fan can't defend this trash. THIS IS A BIG DUMB MOVIE WITH EXPLOSIONS AND ZERO MORALS, I'll piss all over whoever I want. Also if people compare and contrast films they usually use logic to weed out the bad ones, so it's not 100% opinion. Would you respect someone's opinion if they said "The best movies I've seen this year are Scary Movie 5 and After Earth" you aren't going to try and talk them into something better? No movie is perfect but there is common sense
@Kurofusen, once again a MoS fan can't defend this trash. THIS IS A BIG DUMB MOVIE WITH EXPLOSIONS AND ZERO MORALS, I'll piss all over whoever I want. Also if people compare and contrast films they usually use logic to weed out the bad ones, so it's not 100% opinion. Would you respect someone's opinion if they said "The best movies I've seen this year are Scary Movie 5 and After Earth" you aren't going to try and talk them into something better? No movie is perfect but there is common sense film making that could be applied to avoid messes like Man of Steel. Also for most movies if you look at the people involved you can tell when it's going to be a mess. Zack Snyder struck out hard with Sucker Punch and David Goyer can't write a movie by himself. If they were applying for jobs at a five star restaurant and their resumes said Arby's and McDonald's why would the restaurant hire them? The only reason hacks get hired in Hollywood is because people who don't care about the quality of movies run it. The main reason this movie is a travesty is because this is the so called launching pad for the Justice League, so the enitre universe is wrecked, Ben Affleck didn't kill the sequel, Zack Snyder and Goyer did. Iron Man 2 and 3 were stinkers but I never walked out of those movies going "Fuck I don't even care about the Avengers anymore" and I could also understand why people enjoy the Iron Man trilogy, Man of Steel on the other hand offers nothing.
5:24PM on 09/24/2013
I loved that moment in the movie. It was well-earned.
I loved that moment in the movie. It was well-earned.
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4:29PM on 09/24/2013
Goyer says that the anti-killing rule exists outside of the narrative. However, I am not sure that he is right. I could swear that the dialogue in Man of Steel does present a discussion about Superman resorting to lethal force. A person will have to re-watch the movie and pay close attention.
In general, Superman should not be a character who kills, whether in the comics or the movies. Current superhero stories have plenty of dark and lethal avengers. Superman is supposed to be personify
Goyer says that the anti-killing rule exists outside of the narrative. However, I am not sure that he is right. I could swear that the dialogue in Man of Steel does present a discussion about Superman resorting to lethal force. A person will have to re-watch the movie and pay close attention.
In general, Superman should not be a character who kills, whether in the comics or the movies. Current superhero stories have plenty of dark and lethal avengers. Superman is supposed to be personify idealized good.
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4:26PM on 09/24/2013

Team Goyer!

I don't see what the big deal is. I thought it was awesome when Superman killed Zod. Was he supposed to just let Zod kill those innocent people? He had no choice, but to kill Zod. These comic book fans need to realize that films can't be 100% true to the comics because all the stuff that works on the pages of a comic don't always work on the big screen.
I don't see what the big deal is. I thought it was awesome when Superman killed Zod. Was he supposed to just let Zod kill those innocent people? He had no choice, but to kill Zod. These comic book fans need to realize that films can't be 100% true to the comics because all the stuff that works on the pages of a comic don't always work on the big screen.
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5:00PM on 09/24/2013
It has nothing to do with being a comic book fan it has more to do with common sense. Superman should've realized that they were going to level Metropolis and killed Zod from the start. I also don't buy Goyer's excuse that Superman couldn't fly to the moon when they showed him entering space a number of times. I don't care that he killed Zod, and I don't understand why he was an emotional wreck after killing Zod. Superman and Zod killed millions of people when they leveled Metropolis who cares
It has nothing to do with being a comic book fan it has more to do with common sense. Superman should've realized that they were going to level Metropolis and killed Zod from the start. I also don't buy Goyer's excuse that Superman couldn't fly to the moon when they showed him entering space a number of times. I don't care that he killed Zod, and I don't understand why he was an emotional wreck after killing Zod. Superman and Zod killed millions of people when they leveled Metropolis who cares if Zod kills four more?
4:21PM on 09/24/2013
Don't have a problem with Supes killing to 'establish character'. Don't have a problem with the rest of the film.
Do have a problem with terrible lazy neck-snapping scene. Should have had him kill him with some piece of Kryptonian technology (that a Zod was going to use on humans)
Don't have a problem with Supes killing to 'establish character'. Don't have a problem with the rest of the film.
Do have a problem with terrible lazy neck-snapping scene. Should have had him kill him with some piece of Kryptonian technology (that a Zod was going to use on humans)
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+0
4:02PM on 09/24/2013

Wow

Goyer actually sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I'm not his biggest fan in the world, but I've read a lot of Supes comics and still do and I wasn't really aware that Supes didn't kill. I knew he doesn't kill humans who are villains, but monsters and aliens? I feel like I've seen him kill those in comics and cartoons, especially their cronies. He doesn't prefer or enjoy killin them, but will if he has to. And I like how they did it in that context with Zod. And I also think it's
Goyer actually sounds like he knows what he's talking about. I'm not his biggest fan in the world, but I've read a lot of Supes comics and still do and I wasn't really aware that Supes didn't kill. I knew he doesn't kill humans who are villains, but monsters and aliens? I feel like I've seen him kill those in comics and cartoons, especially their cronies. He doesn't prefer or enjoy killin them, but will if he has to. And I like how they did it in that context with Zod. And I also think it's a good thing for him to learn in his origin. Goyer hit it on the head that he will carry it with him in the next films (or I hope he will at least).
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+5
3:55PM on 09/24/2013

I havent read anyone elses comments so sorry if Im repeating...

so he dosent care for rules like that. So can we expect Batman to deviate from his "take no life, use a gun rule"? seriously it rules that makes these characters who they are and im actually tired of film makers not upholding to some of these rules when it comes to characters.
so he dosent care for rules like that. So can we expect Batman to deviate from his "take no life, use a gun rule"? seriously it rules that makes these characters who they are and im actually tired of film makers not upholding to some of these rules when it comes to characters.
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5:22PM on 09/24/2013
Batman has used a gun and killed in the comics, just because you can change history or combine universes in the comics does not mean that it did not happen. You can hold yourself to a higher standard and still have to make a hard decision. It's called being human, which is what Batman is and Superman represents.
Batman has used a gun and killed in the comics, just because you can change history or combine universes in the comics does not mean that it did not happen. You can hold yourself to a higher standard and still have to make a hard decision. It's called being human, which is what Batman is and Superman represents.
2:38AM on 09/25/2013
Everyone pulls the "...well Batman used a gun..." out of their ass when they usually don't know anything else about comics. Yes, Batman used a gun a few times during the first few issues of his comic back in the 30's, and then Bob Kane, you know, the creator of Batman...dropped it and got rid of idea of Batman killing criminals. Maybe because he wanted to differentiate Batman from The Shadow (who was very popular at the time).

So less than a year of occasional gun use in the beginning to
Everyone pulls the "...well Batman used a gun..." out of their ass when they usually don't know anything else about comics. Yes, Batman used a gun a few times during the first few issues of his comic back in the 30's, and then Bob Kane, you know, the creator of Batman...dropped it and got rid of idea of Batman killing criminals. Maybe because he wanted to differentiate Batman from The Shadow (who was very popular at the time).

So less than a year of occasional gun use in the beginning to emulate another pop culture figure of the time, and every wannabee fanboy has to bring it up 80 years later, like it means anything now other than being a useless bit of trivia.
3:52PM on 09/24/2013
If they thoroughly address the issue of Superman killing and after all of that, he refuses to kill anyone again THEN everything will be fine and it will makes sense. I suggest using the Superman doesn't kill thing and using it in the next one to satisfy it as a part of his character evolution.

Not to mention he is going against the PERFECT guy to have this debate with in Batman. it could make a lot of sense.
If they thoroughly address the issue of Superman killing and after all of that, he refuses to kill anyone again THEN everything will be fine and it will makes sense. I suggest using the Superman doesn't kill thing and using it in the next one to satisfy it as a part of his character evolution.

Not to mention he is going against the PERFECT guy to have this debate with in Batman. it could make a lot of sense.
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4:09PM on 09/24/2013
Yes I agree, but what happens if the same situation happens again like with Zod. Now, I hope they don't just because I don't want them to copy, but it's hard for superman to always make the perfect decision with time and lives on the line. It should never get out of hand, but I don't mind if he kills non-human villains when there is no other option. No prison can contain Brainiac, so what if he has to blow up his ship with him in it? If they do it right, and show that even though Supes saved
Yes I agree, but what happens if the same situation happens again like with Zod. Now, I hope they don't just because I don't want them to copy, but it's hard for superman to always make the perfect decision with time and lives on the line. It should never get out of hand, but I don't mind if he kills non-human villains when there is no other option. No prison can contain Brainiac, so what if he has to blow up his ship with him in it? If they do it right, and show that even though Supes saved many lives, he's still somewhat morally conflicted for taking a life, and I think that makes a character that's basically indestructible more relatable
+14
3:28PM on 09/24/2013

srsly?

Are ppl still fucking talking about this? Get over it.
Are ppl still fucking talking about this? Get over it.
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3:19PM on 09/24/2013

Hmm, that's interesting...

...because didn't Snyder say that they purposely made Superman kill in MoS in order to ESTABLISH his rule of not killing anyone in future movies?? And now Goyer is saying that he hates that rule and doesn't agree with it?? This is proof positive that Snyder and Goyer should NOT be working together. How can a writer and director be so far apart in the basic understanding of the main character? Oh that's right...they DIDN'T understand the character. Makes sense now.
...because didn't Snyder say that they purposely made Superman kill in MoS in order to ESTABLISH his rule of not killing anyone in future movies?? And now Goyer is saying that he hates that rule and doesn't agree with it?? This is proof positive that Snyder and Goyer should NOT be working together. How can a writer and director be so far apart in the basic understanding of the main character? Oh that's right...they DIDN'T understand the character. Makes sense now.
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+6
3:08PM on 09/24/2013

Origin shakedown

Superman nickname is the "Man of Steel", but a more accurate monicker is still "the Last Son of Krypton".
Batman's nickname is the "Dark Knight", but a more accurate monicker is still "the Immovable object".
Their origins use their nickname to depart from previous cinematic incarnations, but create their unofficial monicker. Superman avoids murder to avoid being perceived as a God, Batman avoids murder to honor his parent's memory. Both could dole out justice easier by being vigilantes, but
Superman nickname is the "Man of Steel", but a more accurate monicker is still "the Last Son of Krypton".
Batman's nickname is the "Dark Knight", but a more accurate monicker is still "the Immovable object".
Their origins use their nickname to depart from previous cinematic incarnations, but create their unofficial monicker. Superman avoids murder to avoid being perceived as a God, Batman avoids murder to honor his parent's memory. Both could dole out justice easier by being vigilantes, but choose to do the harder decision to preserver their tenuous humanity. In both their origin films they contrasted their character by murdering a sane and logical zealot. Batman has chosen the righteous course and saved monsters, all except Rha-Al-Ghul. Saving Joker was much more difficult logistically, than dragging Rha's from the train. Superman could have struck a blow to the neck that would have knocked Zod unconscious.
Both chose to end not their greatest nemesis or polar opposite, but a mirror image of themselves. They are the most dangerous version of what either could become. If either had taken a wrong turn they would be Rha's and Zod. So figuratively they became the Last Son of Krypton and the Immovable object by killing the darkness in their own heart, that they could only realize when faced with a Life and Death consequence.
To translate to a diverse knowledge base in 180 minutes, the essence of their character, both films were a success. Batman Begins was structured, written and executed better, than Man of Steel, but that has more to do with Jonathan and Christopher Nolan's level of freedom to work without a tent pole to construct.
I still maintain that the carnage level in Man of Steel (less than Superman: the movie, if not for REVERSING TIME) was to create a global devastation, enough to stir super powered beings (hero and villain) out of their complacency. What carnage would shock a jaded 2013 audience, and what would make Wonder Woman leave Thermiscera if she were a real person with real trepidations about this ever-changing world.
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3:04PM on 09/24/2013
While 'Man Of Steel' was my most anticipated film of the year, and I was somewhat letdown (it's not bad at all, just didn't live up to it's full potential for me), him killing Zod made a ton of sense to me. As long as it's dealt with in the next film, and as long as the character grows from it, why's it big deal?

This kind of reminds me of the 'Batman doesn't use guns' thing, but from his first appearance until at least the mid-1970s, he did, quite a bit. As long as this kind of stuff makes
While 'Man Of Steel' was my most anticipated film of the year, and I was somewhat letdown (it's not bad at all, just didn't live up to it's full potential for me), him killing Zod made a ton of sense to me. As long as it's dealt with in the next film, and as long as the character grows from it, why's it big deal?

This kind of reminds me of the 'Batman doesn't use guns' thing, but from his first appearance until at least the mid-1970s, he did, quite a bit. As long as this kind of stuff makes sense within the story (killing Zod made 100% sense), then it's okay to do.
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2:28PM on 09/24/2013
"Superman doesn't kill'. It's a rule that exists outside of the narrative and I just don't believe in rules like that. I believe when you're writing film or television, you can't rely on a crutch or rule that exists outside of the narrative of the film." - David Goyer

It only exist outside of the narrative if you CHOOSE to not include it into the narrative. You can choose to write Superman without the ability to fly, therefore Superman flying exists outside of the narrative. Also, simply
"Superman doesn't kill'. It's a rule that exists outside of the narrative and I just don't believe in rules like that. I believe when you're writing film or television, you can't rely on a crutch or rule that exists outside of the narrative of the film." - David Goyer

It only exist outside of the narrative if you CHOOSE to not include it into the narrative. You can choose to write Superman without the ability to fly, therefore Superman flying exists outside of the narrative. Also, simply killing a villain is far more of a crutch then figuring out how to deal with a villain without killing him. Figuring out how to not kill is far more difficult.

FYI, in the comics, Superman does not kill. Yeah, in non-canon "what if" comics (or other parallel universes) he has killed, but in canon, he does not kill & it is not outside the narrative: [link]
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2:12PM on 09/24/2013

Agree w/ Goyer

Never had a prob w/ Supes killing Zod. It was totally necessary, I think. Right after seeing it, I surmised that that incident would have an impact and repercussions on sequels to come, and I still think so, given audience response since that scene played.
Never had a prob w/ Supes killing Zod. It was totally necessary, I think. Right after seeing it, I surmised that that incident would have an impact and repercussions on sequels to come, and I still think so, given audience response since that scene played.
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-12
2:05PM on 09/24/2013

Awesome!

This our Superman that we deserve, period.
Donner's Superman was a classic without a doubt, but let's leave it there.
This our Superman that we deserve, period.
Donner's Superman was a classic without a doubt, but let's leave it there.
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2:20PM on 09/24/2013
What WE deserve? Please, what have I done????
What WE deserve? Please, what have I done????
2:01PM on 09/24/2013
Superman can't fly to the moon? I guess that means we're well and truly screwed if any future supervillain decides to carry out their plan for Earth's total destruction from a secret lunar base...
Superman can't fly to the moon? I guess that means we're well and truly screwed if any future supervillain decides to carry out their plan for Earth's total destruction from a secret lunar base...
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2:20PM on 09/24/2013
What he obviously means is that Superman just learning his powers of flight is not to that stage yet.
What he obviously means is that Superman just learning his powers of flight is not to that stage yet.
2:57PM on 09/24/2013
In this movie, not sequels to it. He just learns to fly, he has no way of knowing if he can within the framework of this story.
In this movie, not sequels to it. He just learns to fly, he has no way of knowing if he can within the framework of this story.
5:05PM on 09/24/2013
@Shonk and @filmguy450. Didn't he enter space to see that Bruce Wayne satellite and again to enter Zod's spaceship? Plus once you're in space gravity isn't a problem, there is no reason he shouldn't fly to the moon.
@Shonk and @filmguy450. Didn't he enter space to see that Bruce Wayne satellite and again to enter Zod's spaceship? Plus once you're in space gravity isn't a problem, there is no reason he shouldn't fly to the moon.
5:13AM on 09/25/2013
ShonK and filmguy450, that's "outside the narrative"... ;)
ShonK and filmguy450, that's "outside the narrative"... ;)
+11
1:44PM on 09/24/2013
I really don't give a shit if Superman kills Zod or whoever the next villain is. My biggest gripe was Superman likely killing a whole bunch of innocent people in his grudge match with Zod at the end. Of course not shown but I kept wondering how many people were in the buildings they were wrecking or how many innocents had cinder blocks fall on their fucking head. You're telling me Superman couldn't fly 20 seconds due east and finish the fight in a less populated area? Just stupid.
I really don't give a shit if Superman kills Zod or whoever the next villain is. My biggest gripe was Superman likely killing a whole bunch of innocent people in his grudge match with Zod at the end. Of course not shown but I kept wondering how many people were in the buildings they were wrecking or how many innocents had cinder blocks fall on their fucking head. You're telling me Superman couldn't fly 20 seconds due east and finish the fight in a less populated area? Just stupid.
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5:07PM on 09/24/2013
Hey I know a whole city was leveled, but who wants to go to a baseball game?!?! Fuck Snyder, this film is also proof why Goyer shouldn't be allowed to write a script by himself.
Hey I know a whole city was leveled, but who wants to go to a baseball game?!?! Fuck Snyder, this film is also proof why Goyer shouldn't be allowed to write a script by himself.
+15
1:44PM on 09/24/2013

Respectfully disagree with Goyer

Putting aside all the other problems with the film I had, I honestly think Superman just can't kill in films because I think that takes away any kind of edge from the film and the franchise as a whole.
I will now along with others go into the next film and when Superman is dealing with another big villain who is clearly not gonna stop I'm simply gonna think now "Why doesn't he just snap his neck instead of allowing everyone to get killed around him"

It's a huge problem now I think, but
Putting aside all the other problems with the film I had, I honestly think Superman just can't kill in films because I think that takes away any kind of edge from the film and the franchise as a whole.
I will now along with others go into the next film and when Superman is dealing with another big villain who is clearly not gonna stop I'm simply gonna think now "Why doesn't he just snap his neck instead of allowing everyone to get killed around him"

It's a huge problem now I think, but don't get me wrong with other superheroes that have real human weaknesses like the X-Men and Batman they can be beaten to a degree and are clearly beatable. But Superman killing just doesn't and can't work in any context.
I like Goyer, yes some of films have been misses like Jumper and this new Superman film, but he couldnt be more wrong about Superman killing.
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+21
1:32PM on 09/24/2013
I like how Goyer says that as if 'Superman snapping necks' is the ONE problem people had with this film. Sorry Goyer, you're just a shitty writer. Simple as that.
I like how Goyer says that as if 'Superman snapping necks' is the ONE problem people had with this film. Sorry Goyer, you're just a shitty writer. Simple as that.
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1:54PM on 09/24/2013
exactly, he's just saying that to distract from how bad everything else was.
exactly, he's just saying that to distract from how bad everything else was.
2:03PM on 09/24/2013
For a shitty writer, they keep hiring him. He must be doing a better job than you, no?
For a shitty writer, they keep hiring him. He must be doing a better job than you, no?
2:40PM on 09/24/2013
He did a better job than me at something I don't do....? Well, I'm pretty sure I can design blue prints better than Goyer. Ohhhhhh, wait, I see what you are doing. Here, let me try it:

Stephenie Meyer keeps getting work, I guess Twilight is better than anything you can write, no?
Uwe Boll keeps getting work, I guess he is a better director than you, no?
Hitler ruled a country, nearly dominated the world, and had millions of loyal followers, I guess he is a better person than you, no?
He did a better job than me at something I don't do....? Well, I'm pretty sure I can design blue prints better than Goyer. Ohhhhhh, wait, I see what you are doing. Here, let me try it:

Stephenie Meyer keeps getting work, I guess Twilight is better than anything you can write, no?
Uwe Boll keeps getting work, I guess he is a better director than you, no?
Hitler ruled a country, nearly dominated the world, and had millions of loyal followers, I guess he is a better person than you, no?
3:15PM on 09/24/2013
@ Dachande, Thank you! Not necessarily about your original comment, but your response to Dodong27. I can't stand that old "Well if you didn't like the movie, write your own!" comeback. That's the gist of what Dodong was saying and it makes no sense!! Definitely a pet peeve of mine when ignorant people resort to using that age-old 'comeback,' if you can even call it that.
@ Dachande, Thank you! Not necessarily about your original comment, but your response to Dodong27. I can't stand that old "Well if you didn't like the movie, write your own!" comeback. That's the gist of what Dodong was saying and it makes no sense!! Definitely a pet peeve of mine when ignorant people resort to using that age-old 'comeback,' if you can even call it that.
5:10PM on 09/24/2013
Dachande > Dodong27
Dachande > Dodong27
+17
1:29PM on 09/24/2013
I think the fact that this film has divided viewers is proof enough that this isnt the Superman Movie we deserved. It will be rebooted again in 5 or so years. Hopefully it will get done right. Bring back the proper fortress of solitude, Have Jor-El act like a scientist not a soldier that rides a creature that looks like it came straight from Avatar. Get the casting right and get a good script writer who doesnt make it Superbland
I think the fact that this film has divided viewers is proof enough that this isnt the Superman Movie we deserved. It will be rebooted again in 5 or so years. Hopefully it will get done right. Bring back the proper fortress of solitude, Have Jor-El act like a scientist not a soldier that rides a creature that looks like it came straight from Avatar. Get the casting right and get a good script writer who doesnt make it Superbland
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2:02PM on 09/24/2013
Your talking about my "Dad's" Superman in the late '70s & '80s???

Yah you stay there, please. Smh.
Your talking about my "Dad's" Superman in the late '70s & '80s???

Yah you stay there, please. Smh.
2:20PM on 09/24/2013
Yeh and you carry on watching dumbed down destruction movies.
Yeh and you carry on watching dumbed down destruction movies.
1:18PM on 09/24/2013
People need to shut up the "controversies" in comic book movies,they are comic book movies and last time I checked were not subject to more discussion than could fit in a word bubble. P.s man of steel was kinds of motha fuckin tight
People need to shut up the "controversies" in comic book movies,they are comic book movies and last time I checked were not subject to more discussion than could fit in a word bubble. P.s man of steel was kinds of motha fuckin tight
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1:04PM on 09/24/2013
Goyer does kind of make sense, and if he were a better writer he could of actually conveyed all of that into the film itself.

But the truth is, Goyer wrote all of this in a very awkward way. It felt like Superman was originally intended to send Zod to the Phantom Zone, because Superman did have the Phantom Zone tech. Then, at the last minute, they wanted him to kill Zod, but that didn't make sense because Superman has the ability to use the Phantom Zone. So Goyer had to awkwardly write in
Goyer does kind of make sense, and if he were a better writer he could of actually conveyed all of that into the film itself.

But the truth is, Goyer wrote all of this in a very awkward way. It felt like Superman was originally intended to send Zod to the Phantom Zone, because Superman did have the Phantom Zone tech. Then, at the last minute, they wanted him to kill Zod, but that didn't make sense because Superman has the ability to use the Phantom Zone. So Goyer had to awkwardly write in that the Phantom zone could only be used once & using it destroys it. Which made no sense, but I guess at this point Goyer just gave even less of a fuck than usual.
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-10
1:01PM on 09/24/2013

Good explenation Goyer

Thought I think you get way more work than you should, you did well with this film and it was the best super hero movie of the year - easily. Solid work sir, solid work.
Thought I think you get way more work than you should, you did well with this film and it was the best super hero movie of the year - easily. Solid work sir, solid work.
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12:58PM on 09/24/2013

It was ok

I didn't mind MOS as much as most people did. It also didn't bother me that Superman Killed at the end. What bothered me was the poor pacing, bland dialogue and that "gimmick where the camera tries desperately to follow an object that's flying and then suddenly zooms in on it and quickly focuses." Seriously. It happens like 30 or 40 times. I guess it was cool the first couple times. But once you start to notice, it really begins to look fake. It takes you out of the movie. Then it just
I didn't mind MOS as much as most people did. It also didn't bother me that Superman Killed at the end. What bothered me was the poor pacing, bland dialogue and that "gimmick where the camera tries desperately to follow an object that's flying and then suddenly zooms in on it and quickly focuses." Seriously. It happens like 30 or 40 times. I guess it was cool the first couple times. But once you start to notice, it really begins to look fake. It takes you out of the movie. Then it just becomes annoying.
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+16
12:54PM on 09/24/2013

The reason it sucks...

...is not because Superman kills someone, but because it's just a godawful scene to begin with. Maybe write it and film it better and it'll, well, turn out better. Recent example: that whole Mandarin thing. It works in the film for reasons far too over-discussed at this point. This scene in Man of Steel is a clunk cherry on the giant clunk turd that the rest of the film is, no matter what the result of the characters' actions are.
...is not because Superman kills someone, but because it's just a godawful scene to begin with. Maybe write it and film it better and it'll, well, turn out better. Recent example: that whole Mandarin thing. It works in the film for reasons far too over-discussed at this point. This scene in Man of Steel is a clunk cherry on the giant clunk turd that the rest of the film is, no matter what the result of the characters' actions are.
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12:58PM on 09/24/2013
a clunk cherry on a giant clunk turd? Well as much as I hated to see Zod die, the scene works for me and I cannot wait to watch the film again. Good movie!
a clunk cherry on a giant clunk turd? Well as much as I hated to see Zod die, the scene works for me and I cannot wait to watch the film again. Good movie!
2:07PM on 09/24/2013
IM3 was a turd. Hilarious.
IM3 was a turd. Hilarious.
2:35PM on 09/24/2013
Not a huge fan, myself, but that angle did work.
Not a huge fan, myself, but that angle did work.
+8
12:53PM on 09/24/2013
The Superman doesn't kill rule came after he killed Zod in the comics, [link] so I doubt it were the comic fans that didn't like it.
The Superman doesn't kill rule came after he killed Zod in the comics, [link] so I doubt it were the comic fans that didn't like it.
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12:59PM on 09/24/2013
Well played, well played!
Well played, well played!
3:04PM on 09/24/2013
That's an alternate universe story. Bruce Wayne even dies in it.
That's an alternate universe story. Bruce Wayne even dies in it.
4:11PM on 09/24/2013
It's not an alternate universe story, it was main continuity even though the events happened in an alternate universe. It was main continuity Superman who killed three sentient beings and that haunted him for years to come.
It's not an alternate universe story, it was main continuity even though the events happened in an alternate universe. It was main continuity Superman who killed three sentient beings and that haunted him for years to come.
12:53PM on 09/24/2013

Exactly...

I 100% agree with him and I'm always surprised how many "die hard" Superman fans all forget how he killed Zod and the gang in a much more cold-blooded way in SUPERMAN 2. You'd think after their powers were gone that Superman would imprison them instead but nope, throws them into an endless chasm.
I 100% agree with him and I'm always surprised how many "die hard" Superman fans all forget how he killed Zod and the gang in a much more cold-blooded way in SUPERMAN 2. You'd think after their powers were gone that Superman would imprison them instead but nope, throws them into an endless chasm.
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2:09PM on 09/24/2013
I know, funny how that works.
I know, funny how that works.
+22
12:50PM on 09/24/2013
I don't care if Superman kills Zod or kills everyone on Krypton, it was the rest of the script that was total crap. I actually think Goyer's lame arm tattoos have a better storyline than Man of Steel did.
I don't care if Superman kills Zod or kills everyone on Krypton, it was the rest of the script that was total crap. I actually think Goyer's lame arm tattoos have a better storyline than Man of Steel did.
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+6
12:50PM on 09/24/2013
So people are supposed to just trust this guy who comes from the same alien race that not only tried to take over, but the guy actually killed one of his own kind too?

Sorry, not buying it. Goyer took the easy way out after writing himself into a corner that there was no possible way out of other than perverting the character to serve his bad writing.
So people are supposed to just trust this guy who comes from the same alien race that not only tried to take over, but the guy actually killed one of his own kind too?

Sorry, not buying it. Goyer took the easy way out after writing himself into a corner that there was no possible way out of other than perverting the character to serve his bad writing.
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12:54PM on 09/24/2013
Who says they trusted him? Even at the end of the film they were trying to track and keep tabs on him due to lack of trust.
Who says they trusted him? Even at the end of the film they were trying to track and keep tabs on him due to lack of trust.
2:10PM on 09/24/2013
What ElderPredator said.
What ElderPredator said.
12:50PM on 09/24/2013
Even Richard Donner's perfect boy scout Superman killed Zod. In an arguably more cold-blooded fashion. Stripped him of all his superpowers and chucked him into the frozen abyss of the Fortress of Solitude. At least Snyder's Superman felt bad about it and an immediate need to do it.

The movie has its faults, but that isn't one of them.
Even Richard Donner's perfect boy scout Superman killed Zod. In an arguably more cold-blooded fashion. Stripped him of all his superpowers and chucked him into the frozen abyss of the Fortress of Solitude. At least Snyder's Superman felt bad about it and an immediate need to do it.

The movie has its faults, but that isn't one of them.
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12:51PM on 09/24/2013
Actually, that was Richard Lester, not Donner. But points for trying...
Actually, that was Richard Lester, not Donner. But points for trying...
12:58PM on 09/24/2013
Except Zod dies in the Richard Donner cut of the movie too. Donner shot that great scene before the studio fired him and brought in Lester to fuck everything up.
Except Zod dies in the Richard Donner cut of the movie too. Donner shot that great scene before the studio fired him and brought in Lester to fuck everything up.
12:42PM on 09/24/2013

Please find someone to do it properly

The whole film was blasphemy.
The whole film was blasphemy.
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12:45PM on 09/24/2013
Which Superman movie was your favorite? IV or maybe III?
Which Superman movie was your favorite? IV or maybe III?
12:57PM on 09/24/2013
1 and 2 if your asking.
1 and 2 if your asking.
5:15PM on 09/24/2013
@Zohan at least 3 and 4 he has morals instead of being a Space Jesus Bully
@Zohan at least 3 and 4 he has morals instead of being a Space Jesus Bully
-1
12:35PM on 09/24/2013
I love comics but it bugs me when they make a villain become too big and horrendous and kills hundreds of people and all he gets is a punch from batman or superman and just tossed back into jail to sleep it off. It's like come on, this guy attempted genocide and would do it again the second they got a chance. If you think about it batman stopping the joker and letting him live to kill more again makes him just as crazy as the joker
I love comics but it bugs me when they make a villain become too big and horrendous and kills hundreds of people and all he gets is a punch from batman or superman and just tossed back into jail to sleep it off. It's like come on, this guy attempted genocide and would do it again the second they got a chance. If you think about it batman stopping the joker and letting him live to kill more again makes him just as crazy as the joker
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+0
12:35PM on 09/24/2013
I love comics but it bugs me when they make a villain become too big and horrendous and kills hundreds of people and all he gets is a punch from batman or superman and just tossed back into jail to sleep it off. It's like come on, this guy attempted genocide and would do it again the second they got a chance. If you think about it batman stopping the joker and letting him live to kill more again makes him just as crazy as the joker
I love comics but it bugs me when they make a villain become too big and horrendous and kills hundreds of people and all he gets is a punch from batman or superman and just tossed back into jail to sleep it off. It's like come on, this guy attempted genocide and would do it again the second they got a chance. If you think about it batman stopping the joker and letting him live to kill more again makes him just as crazy as the joker
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+5
12:35PM on 09/24/2013

I'm not at all bothered by Superman killing Zod. I'm bothered by Superman's negligence of civilian casualties

I'm cool with David Goyer's decision with Superman killing Zod. I would just add, it's not something that needs to happen in every new Superman film. Superman did what most of us would do in that split second decision. I like "Man of Steel" but was greatly mixed with something which I don't believe was Goyer's decision. It was Superman's own destruction when fighting. Superman [link] into buildings which were obviously occupied by innocent people. I let the Smallville fight scene go, cause this ">
I'm cool with David Goyer's decision with Superman killing Zod. I would just add, it's not something that needs to happen in every new Superman film. Superman did what most of us would do in that split second decision. I like "Man of Steel" but was greatly mixed with something which I don't believe was Goyer's decision. It was Superman's own destruction when fighting. Superman [link] into buildings which were obviously occupied by innocent people. I let the Smallville fight scene go, cause this was the first time Superman actually fought an enemy opponent. However, when he fights Zod in what remains of Metropolis, Superman is clearly bashing into unharmed buildings which are filled with people who survived. Rather than helping people, Superman put people more in harm's way in a "Matrix Revolutions" style battle. Superman should've fought to keep Zod away from the survivors.
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12:30PM on 09/24/2013
I had a lot of qualms with the last act of the movie, but killing Zod was not one of them. I also give the filmmakers credit that whenever someone WAS killed during a fight scene, Kal-El would emerge all teary-eyed. Because he could feel it. His empathy was that great. I actually didn't know Superman had a rule against killing. I knew he believed in protecting the innocent, and I still feel he maybe dropped the ball on that one in a big way, though taking out Zod certainly kept it from getting
I had a lot of qualms with the last act of the movie, but killing Zod was not one of them. I also give the filmmakers credit that whenever someone WAS killed during a fight scene, Kal-El would emerge all teary-eyed. Because he could feel it. His empathy was that great. I actually didn't know Superman had a rule against killing. I knew he believed in protecting the innocent, and I still feel he maybe dropped the ball on that one in a big way, though taking out Zod certainly kept it from getting worse than it already was.
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12:17PM on 09/24/2013
I haven't been able to understand the animosity toward that particular part of the story. In Superman II, Superman kills Zod. There is a deleted scene which shows him and the others being taken away, so I suppose that means *in that deleted scene*they survived(?), but in the actual finished film, Zod and the other two die, so why is it such a profound mistake in Man of Steel?
I haven't been able to understand the animosity toward that particular part of the story. In Superman II, Superman kills Zod. There is a deleted scene which shows him and the others being taken away, so I suppose that means *in that deleted scene*they survived(?), but in the actual finished film, Zod and the other two die, so why is it such a profound mistake in Man of Steel?
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1:16PM on 09/24/2013
Cause Superman II was a well written movie. No one is going to bitch about a film that is good. If Man of Steel was well written, no one would care. Like how Batman does kill in the Nolan films, but why bitch about it? They were damn good movies.
Cause Superman II was a well written movie. No one is going to bitch about a film that is good. If Man of Steel was well written, no one would care. Like how Batman does kill in the Nolan films, but why bitch about it? They were damn good movies.
12:16PM on 09/24/2013
I liked MoS, I said it.
I liked MoS, I said it.
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12:09PM on 09/24/2013
Maybe Superman doesn't kill. He just doesn't have to save them. Same as Batman. Referring to Batman's fight with Ras Al Ghul. Batman didn't kill him but Batman didn't have to save him either.
Maybe Superman doesn't kill. He just doesn't have to save them. Same as Batman. Referring to Batman's fight with Ras Al Ghul. Batman didn't kill him but Batman didn't have to save him either.
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12:07PM on 09/24/2013
How I think of it is that he was learning to become Superman while being Superman. He had no other choice but to kill Zod and he regrets doing killing Zod right after when he is down on his knees and screaming.

I just hope that in the next film Superman still gets the majority of the film time and not Batman. Let Batman get his own story when it comes to his own new films. This is a Man of Steel sequel after all.
How I think of it is that he was learning to become Superman while being Superman. He had no other choice but to kill Zod and he regrets doing killing Zod right after when he is down on his knees and screaming.

I just hope that in the next film Superman still gets the majority of the film time and not Batman. Let Batman get his own story when it comes to his own new films. This is a Man of Steel sequel after all.
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12:05PM on 09/24/2013
I think it's not as essential to Superman's character as it is to Batman's. Batman doesn't kill because he saw his parents killed before his eyes. Superman doesn't have to deal with that trauma; the troubles he deals with growing up related to his powers and identity as an "alien among us" are different. I think Superman should be the "big blue boy scout" to an extent, but not to a cheesy, overly goody two shoes extent. If he really has to kill and he does, that does get the point across that
I think it's not as essential to Superman's character as it is to Batman's. Batman doesn't kill because he saw his parents killed before his eyes. Superman doesn't have to deal with that trauma; the troubles he deals with growing up related to his powers and identity as an "alien among us" are different. I think Superman should be the "big blue boy scout" to an extent, but not to a cheesy, overly goody two shoes extent. If he really has to kill and he does, that does get the point across that he means business and we should be thankful someone with those powers is on our side.
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+1
11:57AM on 09/24/2013
except superman does kill in the comics, several times
except superman does kill in the comics, several times
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11:57AM on 09/24/2013
Good, I don't want a pussy Superman who won't kill even if there is no other choice. I thought it was pretty clear Zod was going to try and kill everyone until Superman killed him and that Superman had to do it.
Good, I don't want a pussy Superman who won't kill even if there is no other choice. I thought it was pretty clear Zod was going to try and kill everyone until Superman killed him and that Superman had to do it.
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