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Joss Whedon says the ending to The Empire Strikes Back was a "terrible idea"

Aug. 22, 2013by: Alex Maidy

Fanboy Rage: Commence!

Despite being a lifelong fan of the STAR WARS franchise, Joss Whedon has no plans to direct any of the forthcoming sequels due to his commitment to Marvel and THE AVENGERS: AGE OF ULTRON. But that doesn't mean the outspoken filmmaker and geek idol can't share his opinion on the series he grew up loving. In fact, Whedon will go so far as to criticize the film many consider the best in the whole series: THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK.

In the latest issue of Entertainment Weekly, Whedon was asked questions ranging from BUFFY to THE AVENGERS and STAR WARS, but it was his strong comments about the ending of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK that caught me off guard. Whedon calls the ending "appalling" and a "terrible idea". Why does the filmmaker feel so strongly?

“Well, it’s not an ending,” Whedon explained about the 1980 film, which had a cliffhanger leading into the next entry of the series, Return of the Jedi. “It’s a Come Back Next Week, or in three years. And that upsets me. I go to movies expecting to have a whole experience. If I want a movie that doesn’t end I’ll go to a French movie. That’s a betrayal of trust to me. A movie has to be complete within itself, it can’t just build off the first one or play variations.”

While I wouldn't go so far as to call it a betrayal of trust, I think that Whedon is missing the entire point of THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK. George Lucas was heavily influenced by the pulp fiction serials from his youth, many of which ended abruptly with the heroes in dire conditions. The cliffhanger is a staple of those types of movies and television shows as well as comic books. If handled correctly, as in THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK, a cliffhanger can build momentum and anticipation for the next film, even if that is years away.

While I appreciate that the Marvel films have all existed as standalone movies that feed into each other without leaving major storylines unresolved, there is nothing wrong with a little fun with the audience. It remains to be seen if Joss Whedon takes his own advice and doesn't just build on and play variations with THE AVENGERS: AGE OF ULTRON.

Extra Tidbit: Do you agree with Whedon about the ending to THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK?

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+1
1:06PM on 11/02/2013

Proof that Whedon is not the director people worship him as

The ending of The Empire Strikes Back is a great setup to it's finale in Episode VIII.
And this coming from a guy who has too many plot holes and unexplained things happen in The Avengers. Not only that but he also kills off one character and then brings him back for his own sitcom.
I suppose Whedon thinks that his ending to The Avengers was better than the ending to The Empire Strikes Back. Whedon is no movie god, or great filmmaker. He has a long way to prove this, and I wish people
The ending of The Empire Strikes Back is a great setup to it's finale in Episode VIII.
And this coming from a guy who has too many plot holes and unexplained things happen in The Avengers. Not only that but he also kills off one character and then brings him back for his own sitcom.
I suppose Whedon thinks that his ending to The Avengers was better than the ending to The Empire Strikes Back. Whedon is no movie god, or great filmmaker. He has a long way to prove this, and I wish people would realize this too.
Your Reply:



+0
2:57PM on 10/22/2013

meh....

See it all the time in Hollywood...these people are so used to everyone bowing at their feet when they enter a room that they think any thought they have is of brilliance...so they become very opinionated...unless you have the fortitude to check yourself every once in a while to place your feet back onto the earth, if you will, then you'll become lost. Without checking yer head you may become lost fer good....yep you like that? LOST...I know I can say no wrong....i'm amazing...yes yes
See it all the time in Hollywood...these people are so used to everyone bowing at their feet when they enter a room that they think any thought they have is of brilliance...so they become very opinionated...unless you have the fortitude to check yourself every once in a while to place your feet back onto the earth, if you will, then you'll become lost. Without checking yer head you may become lost fer good....yep you like that? LOST...I know I can say no wrong....i'm amazing...yes yes YES.....KOOL-AID where is it....gotta hit dat shite again....KALIMAH KALIMAH KALIMA.....huh? MOM I"M WRITING GET OUT!!!!........
Your Reply:



9:27AM on 08/26/2013

As the saying goes...

Whedon is really out of his depth here.
Whedon is really out of his depth here.
Your Reply:



3:31PM on 08/24/2013
I love Joss, but come on... The end of Fellowship and Two Towers were also sort of cliff hangers, but it was established as a trilogy. Star Wars was a trilogy and the second film should give people a reason to want to see the third and final chapter. You know...like Last Crusade is the FINAL chapter of Indy? And Return of the Jedi is the FINAL chapter of Star Wars? And A New Hope is the FIRST movie in the Star Wars TRILOGY. #fanboyindenial
I love Joss, but come on... The end of Fellowship and Two Towers were also sort of cliff hangers, but it was established as a trilogy. Star Wars was a trilogy and the second film should give people a reason to want to see the third and final chapter. You know...like Last Crusade is the FINAL chapter of Indy? And Return of the Jedi is the FINAL chapter of Star Wars? And A New Hope is the FIRST movie in the Star Wars TRILOGY. #fanboyindenial
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+5
12:12AM on 08/24/2013
so this comes from someone who hinted at THANOS only to be forgotten and then replaced by ULTRON...??

suuuure... very valid opinion...
so this comes from someone who hinted at THANOS only to be forgotten and then replaced by ULTRON...??

suuuure... very valid opinion...
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8:57PM on 08/23/2013
bad things happen and nothing is done about it, people want to know what happens next.
good things happen and the heroes save the day, people still want to know what's coming next.
just didn't kind of endings. which are never really endings....
bad things happen and nothing is done about it, people want to know what happens next.
good things happen and the heroes save the day, people still want to know what's coming next.
just didn't kind of endings. which are never really endings....
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7:26PM on 08/23/2013

CLIFFHANGER!!!

Cliffhanger endings are alright by me (seems like that's one of things the FF franchise is starting to get known for). Though it's always funny when certain films are presumptious enough to end with a cliffhanger thinking that the audience will UNDOUBTEDLY want to see a sequel (here's looking at you THE CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK...and yes, yes, there is a third one coming out but even the film-makers admit that it isn't a direct through and through sequel to TCOR.)
Cliffhanger endings are alright by me (seems like that's one of things the FF franchise is starting to get known for). Though it's always funny when certain films are presumptious enough to end with a cliffhanger thinking that the audience will UNDOUBTEDLY want to see a sequel (here's looking at you THE CHRONICLES OF RIDDICK...and yes, yes, there is a third one coming out but even the film-makers admit that it isn't a direct through and through sequel to TCOR.)
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11:40AM on 08/23/2013
Meh. It made me really want to watch the next one. If a movie has a guaranteed sequel I think it's perfectly fine to leave a few loose ends.
Meh. It made me really want to watch the next one. If a movie has a guaranteed sequel I think it's perfectly fine to leave a few loose ends.
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11:17AM on 08/23/2013

He's being hypocritical

Doesn't Joss Whedon know how exciting cliffhanger endings are? COME ON! He did it himself or The Avengers with that ending.....
Doesn't Joss Whedon know how exciting cliffhanger endings are? COME ON! He did it himself or The Avengers with that ending.....
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10:38AM on 08/23/2013

As a kid, I agreed with him 150%

You have to remember, I thought Han Solo was dead. I thought Luke Skywalker was a cripple now, possibly unable to use a light saber. A sequel to a movie was a rare thing much less A THIRD MOVIE in a trilogy (what the f*ck was a trilogy). As a kid, I thought Empire sucked balls. I couldn't even consider liking the film until years later when I found out that Han lived.
THAT BEING SAID.... as an adult, I've found that Empire means something else. It was the Red Wedding of its day and
You have to remember, I thought Han Solo was dead. I thought Luke Skywalker was a cripple now, possibly unable to use a light saber. A sequel to a movie was a rare thing much less A THIRD MOVIE in a trilogy (what the f*ck was a trilogy). As a kid, I thought Empire sucked balls. I couldn't even consider liking the film until years later when I found out that Han lived.
THAT BEING SAID.... as an adult, I've found that Empire means something else. It was the Red Wedding of its day and everyone learns that there is a price to be made for the choices we make. The film was as much about Luke growing up as it was about me. And the message was, life wasn't always fair. And in that, the lack of an ending seems somewhat fitting.
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10:22AM on 08/23/2013
Had I been alive to see The Empire Strikes Back in theaters, I might've felt a bit outraged by the ending there. While it was a throwback to the serials of the 1930s, it was a ploy that hadn't been used in decades. Hell, for that matter, when I was younger I couldn't just watch Empire without immediately popping in Return of the Jedi to give me closure. At the same time, a lot of movies these days use that very same gimmick to try to hook in audiences for a franchise (see, Prometheus). They
Had I been alive to see The Empire Strikes Back in theaters, I might've felt a bit outraged by the ending there. While it was a throwback to the serials of the 1930s, it was a ploy that hadn't been used in decades. Hell, for that matter, when I was younger I couldn't just watch Empire without immediately popping in Return of the Jedi to give me closure. At the same time, a lot of movies these days use that very same gimmick to try to hook in audiences for a franchise (see, Prometheus). They don't always work as well as Star Wars did, but you can't deny it was a game-changer.

I don't really know why Whedon felt like voicing this opinion. If it was 1980, again, I might agree with him. But 33 years later, we know what happens after, and we know dozens of other movies that strive for that same kind of "tune in next week" tactic to keep people in check.
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8:44AM on 08/23/2013
Hmm I wonder how he felt about the Lord of The Rings movies or the Hobbit?
Hmm I wonder how he felt about the Lord of The Rings movies or the Hobbit?
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8:36AM on 08/23/2013

Comic strip

I remember watching it as a kid and to be honest, the cliffhanger ending was great. It inspired a lot more discussion on 'what will happen next' than the first movie.
I remember watching it as a kid and to be honest, the cliffhanger ending was great. It inspired a lot more discussion on 'what will happen next' than the first movie.
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8:24AM on 08/23/2013

To be fair

Comics that contain 25 pages of story and no ending are a rip off. They don't write self contained stories anymore: they write story arcs that will be collected into trades.

That being said, I didn't feel ripped off by Empire. Luke and Leia were reunited at the end and to me that was an ending.
Comics that contain 25 pages of story and no ending are a rip off. They don't write self contained stories anymore: they write story arcs that will be collected into trades.

That being said, I didn't feel ripped off by Empire. Luke and Leia were reunited at the end and to me that was an ending.
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8:20AM on 08/23/2013

The 1978 Lord of the Rings cartoon

When the The Lord of the Rings cartoon came out in 1978 and it ended with Boromir dying and Merry and Pippin being carried off by orcs the entire audience booed. "What?!" people cried. "That's the end of the movie?!" It was a cartoon so most of the people in the audience were kids. (My friends and I were eleven.) None of us knew that the The Lord of the Rings was a trilogy of novels and that this movie was based on the first and a bit of the second. There were plans to make the sequel but
When the The Lord of the Rings cartoon came out in 1978 and it ended with Boromir dying and Merry and Pippin being carried off by orcs the entire audience booed. "What?!" people cried. "That's the end of the movie?!" It was a cartoon so most of the people in the audience were kids. (My friends and I were eleven.) None of us knew that the The Lord of the Rings was a trilogy of novels and that this movie was based on the first and a bit of the second. There were plans to make the sequel but audiences were so angry and word of mouth was so bad that the movie didn't make enough money to justify the sequel. Instead the shitty TV movie The Return of the King came out in 1980. The good news is that enough young people went out and read the novels to find out how the story ended that there ended up being enough interest to justify Peter Jackson filming all three novels back to back. Thus there was no "WTF?" moment at the end of The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring even though it ended the same way as the 1978 cartoon.
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7:04AM on 08/23/2013
I guess Whedon wanted the movie to end with Cloud City being blown up and for the good guys to be awarded with medals, huh?
I guess Whedon wanted the movie to end with Cloud City being blown up and for the good guys to be awarded with medals, huh?
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3:07AM on 08/23/2013

he has a point.... to an extent

i never had a problem with Empire Strikes back but I do remember feeling a bit ripped off when I left the theater but other movies have done it MUCH worse:
MATRIX 2 ending
Pirates of the Caribbean 2 ending
I also feel as though movies should have a beginning, a middle and an end. But cliffhanger endings are ok IF THE SEQUEL IS GUARANTEED GREENLIT...
so many movies end on cliffhangers and are NEVER resolved... and THAT pisses me off more than a movie that ends with only one character in
i never had a problem with Empire Strikes back but I do remember feeling a bit ripped off when I left the theater but other movies have done it MUCH worse:
MATRIX 2 ending
Pirates of the Caribbean 2 ending
I also feel as though movies should have a beginning, a middle and an end. But cliffhanger endings are ok IF THE SEQUEL IS GUARANTEED GREENLIT...
so many movies end on cliffhangers and are NEVER resolved... and THAT pisses me off more than a movie that ends with only one character in jeopardy...
I'm still waiting for Buckaroo Banzai: World Crime League....
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3:00AM on 08/23/2013
Fuck this guy.
Fuck this guy.
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+0
2:05AM on 08/23/2013
I absolutely agree with the sentiment he's expressing, however I think leveling this criticism at ESB is overstating it when there are other film franchises that violate this philosophy much more egregiously. Like for example, the recent spate of popular books that get broken into two movies, e.g.: Deathly Hallows, Breaking Dawn, (you know it's gonna happen with Mockingjay too... just watch).

When I go to the movies, ideally I like to see a complete film, not "Come back next year and buy
I absolutely agree with the sentiment he's expressing, however I think leveling this criticism at ESB is overstating it when there are other film franchises that violate this philosophy much more egregiously. Like for example, the recent spate of popular books that get broken into two movies, e.g.: Deathly Hallows, Breaking Dawn, (you know it's gonna happen with Mockingjay too... just watch).

When I go to the movies, ideally I like to see a complete film, not "Come back next year and buy another ticket to find out how it ends!". That doesn't mean there can't be sequels, but sequels should be a complete movie unto themselves as well.
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1:59AM on 08/23/2013

Dear BHak88

He never said he was mad, and he never said he wanted a happy ending. He just pointed out that it didn't have an ending. And he's completely right. The film just kinda went on pause. And worse yet, where it picked up in Jedi had no connection to where it left off. And that means that it was not Episode 5 leading into Episode 6. It was one chapter, then skipping one or two chapters were some important stuff happened, and then licking up three chapters later. If you bought a book and it
He never said he was mad, and he never said he wanted a happy ending. He just pointed out that it didn't have an ending. And he's completely right. The film just kinda went on pause. And worse yet, where it picked up in Jedi had no connection to where it left off. And that means that it was not Episode 5 leading into Episode 6. It was one chapter, then skipping one or two chapters were some important stuff happened, and then licking up three chapters later. If you bought a book and it was missing three chapters, you would be pissed. But here, you seem not to care? Nothing is above criticism, not even the precious Star Wars saga. At the end of the day it is a great overall story that has some serious holes.
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9:20AM on 08/23/2013
At the end of Empire they all agree that they would follow the plan (without telling the audience the plan) and Jedi picks up with the plan being implemented, how is that Episode 5 not leading into 6? What you wanted to see Luke go off an do some more training? You miss knowing how Lando got hired as a Jabba bodyguard? I really don't understand what you think was missing.
At the end of Empire they all agree that they would follow the plan (without telling the audience the plan) and Jedi picks up with the plan being implemented, how is that Episode 5 not leading into 6? What you wanted to see Luke go off an do some more training? You miss knowing how Lando got hired as a Jabba bodyguard? I really don't understand what you think was missing.
12:11PM on 08/23/2013
At the end of Empire, two characters fly off into the sunset with the intent of going to get Han, four characters are left watching them and waiting to regroup. Some where in there a weak untrained Luke went off to become a bad ass, Lando got a job working for Jabba (wearing one of the worst masks I've even seen (and are we to believe that Lando never took that off the whole time he was working for Jabba). Liea left Lukes side, and rejoined Chewie somewhere, for some reason, stops buy the
At the end of Empire, two characters fly off into the sunset with the intent of going to get Han, four characters are left watching them and waiting to regroup. Some where in there a weak untrained Luke went off to become a bad ass, Lando got a job working for Jabba (wearing one of the worst masks I've even seen (and are we to believe that Lando never took that off the whole time he was working for Jabba). Liea left Lukes side, and rejoined Chewie somewhere, for some reason, stops buy the Bounty Hunters version of Brooks Brothers and gets outfitted in the latest bounty hunter threads, and the droids just kinda hangout on Dagoba until there owner sell's them into slavery. Apparently the plan when we leave empire is that Lando and Chewi are gonna fly off and come up with a plan that ultimately does not work, so Luke has to come in and be a bad ass. A plan that would not have been formed earlier cause at the end of empire luke was an apprentice.

When two characters leave, and four stay behind, the story (in a continuous story has he made here) should start with those same characters still together. Otherwise there are holes. Those holes could be filled with simple expository dialogue, but here they weren't. I'm not saying that the gaps ruin the film, but they are, in fact gaps, in story that is filled with them.
+9
1:07AM on 08/23/2013
So he's mad at movies that dare to be orginal and don't fall into the cookie cutter happy ending that 99% of movies do? What a stupid thing to say.
So he's mad at movies that dare to be orginal and don't fall into the cookie cutter happy ending that 99% of movies do? What a stupid thing to say.
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-1
12:34AM on 08/23/2013

what a troll

aren't people expecting Avengers 2 to have the gloomy bittersweet ending that Empire had? Aren't people expecting Whedon to kill off some heroes in this one? i think this quote is just to take us off the scent.


Chris Nolan said no Robin in TDKR. we had Robin.
aren't people expecting Avengers 2 to have the gloomy bittersweet ending that Empire had? Aren't people expecting Whedon to kill off some heroes in this one? i think this quote is just to take us off the scent.


Chris Nolan said no Robin in TDKR. we had Robin.
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10:54PM on 08/22/2013
Maybe if I saw this in theaters in 1980 I'd feel like Joss, but I watched all the films on VHS as a kid back-to-back, so it was no big deal. Besides, with a lot of tv shows the cliffhanger ending is so common (going from one season to the next) that I sort of just expect it.
Maybe if I saw this in theaters in 1980 I'd feel like Joss, but I watched all the films on VHS as a kid back-to-back, so it was no big deal. Besides, with a lot of tv shows the cliffhanger ending is so common (going from one season to the next) that I sort of just expect it.
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10:49PM on 08/22/2013
Remember that fun little fight movie called Mortal Kombat a decade back? When it ended with "YOU WEAK PATHETIC FOOLS! I HAVE COME FOR YOUR SOULS!!!" I was so hyped for the sequel to see this awesome gigantic creature of immense power they would call Shao Kahn... Only to be let down by seeing the creature-like world conqueror replaced by that ugly bad guy from Cobra.

Which reminds me of that other creature of immense power they would call THANOS at the end of THE AVENGERS...
Remember that fun little fight movie called Mortal Kombat a decade back? When it ended with "YOU WEAK PATHETIC FOOLS! I HAVE COME FOR YOUR SOULS!!!" I was so hyped for the sequel to see this awesome gigantic creature of immense power they would call Shao Kahn... Only to be let down by seeing the creature-like world conqueror replaced by that ugly bad guy from Cobra.

Which reminds me of that other creature of immense power they would call THANOS at the end of THE AVENGERS...
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10:19PM on 08/22/2013
I'm a Star Wars fan but I sort of agree with Joss. I wasn't a fan of how it ended either. I admire their approach to go darker and allow the villains to win to continue the story with Blue Harvest (Jedi) but as a movie goer, it felt like a "Next week on Star Wars" or a TV show cliffhanger, which I also don't care for.
It does seem cool to hate Joss though much like James Cameron. Personally I have no issues with Joss. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, positive or negative, and so long as
I'm a Star Wars fan but I sort of agree with Joss. I wasn't a fan of how it ended either. I admire their approach to go darker and allow the villains to win to continue the story with Blue Harvest (Jedi) but as a movie goer, it felt like a "Next week on Star Wars" or a TV show cliffhanger, which I also don't care for.
It does seem cool to hate Joss though much like James Cameron. Personally I have no issues with Joss. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, positive or negative, and so long as they aren't insulting others then it's nothing more than an opinion. He prefers his movies have a finale than a dark cliffhanger. I do to.
At the end of the day it's just a movie and opinions on 30 yr old film really don't matter much.
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10:00PM on 08/22/2013
Anyone want to make a guarantee that Age of Ultron has a cliffhanger ending?
Anyone want to make a guarantee that Age of Ultron has a cliffhanger ending?
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-7
9:46PM on 08/22/2013
Eh, I can see his point. I think people find SW to be too sacred sometimes. it's not an infallible series. It has it's flaws and it's people who don't necessarily think it's the greatest think since sliced bread. Whedon makes a good point too, so it's not like it's blind hate. He just doesn't like the cliffhanger aspect of it, and he's partially right. The film does leave you hanging, expecting you to tune in again to the next movie instead of finishing any of the stories it created within the
Eh, I can see his point. I think people find SW to be too sacred sometimes. it's not an infallible series. It has it's flaws and it's people who don't necessarily think it's the greatest think since sliced bread. Whedon makes a good point too, so it's not like it's blind hate. He just doesn't like the cliffhanger aspect of it, and he's partially right. The film does leave you hanging, expecting you to tune in again to the next movie instead of finishing any of the stories it created within the film.
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9:31PM on 08/22/2013

NONSEQUITUR

IS AFFLECK THE NEW BATMAN?
IS AFFLECK THE NEW BATMAN?
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+2
9:30PM on 08/22/2013

Ben Affleck the next Batman

Where is this story?
Where is this story?
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10:04PM on 08/22/2013
I had to google after reading your post and holly shit balls!
I had to google after reading your post and holly shit balls!
+1
9:30PM on 08/22/2013

What a nit wit.

I think he's just trolling.
I think he's just trolling.
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9:26PM on 08/22/2013
I love Joss Whedon's work and he is a gifted storyteller, but I think the ending of Episode V worked perfectly. This was a movie in which the bad guys won. Han Solo was apparently betrayed by his best bud and then frozen in carbonite, Luke had been dealt a devastating revelation and lost his hand, all of that stuff - the point was that when the third installment rolled around, it would be a triumphant conclusion, which it was.
I love Joss Whedon's work and he is a gifted storyteller, but I think the ending of Episode V worked perfectly. This was a movie in which the bad guys won. Han Solo was apparently betrayed by his best bud and then frozen in carbonite, Luke had been dealt a devastating revelation and lost his hand, all of that stuff - the point was that when the third installment rolled around, it would be a triumphant conclusion, which it was.
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+11
9:18PM on 08/22/2013

The Force is weak in this man...

He didn't get picked to direct Episode VII. Boo-hoo.
He didn't get picked to direct Episode VII. Boo-hoo.
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8:46PM on 08/22/2013
I couldn't disagree more. I look at Empire as the model of how to handle a middle film. It told its own story and left you with a sense of hope and excitement for the next one. Sure it had a pseudo cliff-hanger, but look at the Lord of the Rings trilogy for an example of "come back next week" (not that I don't love those as well).
I couldn't disagree more. I look at Empire as the model of how to handle a middle film. It told its own story and left you with a sense of hope and excitement for the next one. Sure it had a pseudo cliff-hanger, but look at the Lord of the Rings trilogy for an example of "come back next week" (not that I don't love those as well).
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8:43PM on 08/22/2013
I love his work but on this one he can go shit in his hat. This is a typical lazy attitude you see a lot in filmgoers. "What do you mean theres a part two!?!" or wanting the whole ending of a story spelled out for them, refusing to think or wait for anything. Empire's ending was one of the greatest cinema moments of its day. I remember salivating, thinking how I couldnt WAIT for more news, info, Jedi. Sorry Joss but you got this one way wrong.
I love his work but on this one he can go shit in his hat. This is a typical lazy attitude you see a lot in filmgoers. "What do you mean theres a part two!?!" or wanting the whole ending of a story spelled out for them, refusing to think or wait for anything. Empire's ending was one of the greatest cinema moments of its day. I remember salivating, thinking how I couldnt WAIT for more news, info, Jedi. Sorry Joss but you got this one way wrong.
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8:05PM on 08/22/2013

Really Hating The Haters Brigade...but I disagree with Joss.

You know, its really starting to bug me how all the talkback areas on all of these sites are sounding like middle school scrums....From screaming about when whatever Fanboys Holy Grail Talisman has been violated by some uncaring movie wonk, to the constant one upmanshit and the po mo ain't I so clever ripostes....This kind of ' debate' ( very loosely applied) is actually depressing to read, because it reinforces all the negative shit that the ' outside world' thinks about those who would fall
You know, its really starting to bug me how all the talkback areas on all of these sites are sounding like middle school scrums....From screaming about when whatever Fanboys Holy Grail Talisman has been violated by some uncaring movie wonk, to the constant one upmanshit and the po mo ain't I so clever ripostes....This kind of ' debate' ( very loosely applied) is actually depressing to read, because it reinforces all the negative shit that the ' outside world' thinks about those who would fall under the 'Fanboy' moniker. Enough of that , Re Mr. Whedon's Opine of The Empire Strikes Back and its ending: Mr Whedon couldn't be more wrong if he was wronged with a 3 pronged Wrongulator. Being the middle film of a Trilogy, in a story that will be concluded in the third film, How do you wrap up the story in pretty pink ribbons and present it to be digested? The fact that The Empire Strikes Back is by far the most ' adult' episode of the entire series is not by accident. With a title like that, you know the Empire is bringing the Big Bad time, and so they do. Heroes are bashed around, frozen, and pay a steep price for their arrogance and self belief when they walk into a situation they are clearly not ready for. You can't put a tidy ending on this one. Too much happens to be force fed a tacked on ending. Its not without merit that this film, and The Two Towers are considered to be the best of their respective trilogies. Both advance the story, both go to some very dark places, and both leave you begging for more. Exactly what they are designed to do. So, Mr Whedon....I don't care if your last film made a Billion Dollars world wide..you're way off on this one.
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8:03PM on 08/22/2013

So ok ...

Is the ending of Empire really a cliffhanger? Sure the way they left Solo maybe but thats about it, this seems like a useless discussion.
Is the ending of Empire really a cliffhanger? Sure the way they left Solo maybe but thats about it, this seems like a useless discussion.
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+9
8:03PM on 08/22/2013

Blasphemy

Until Whedon makes a film, or series of films, as legendary as the original Star Wars, he should keep sucking the Empire teet like the rest of the world.
Best. Movie. Ever.
Until Whedon makes a film, or series of films, as legendary as the original Star Wars, he should keep sucking the Empire teet like the rest of the world.
Best. Movie. Ever.
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+3
8:03PM on 08/22/2013

Blasphemy

Until Whedon makes a film, or series of films, as legendary as the original Star Wars, he should keep sucking the Empire teet like the rest of the world.
Best. Movie. Ever.
Until Whedon makes a film, or series of films, as legendary as the original Star Wars, he should keep sucking the Empire teet like the rest of the world.
Best. Movie. Ever.
Your Reply:



7:58PM on 08/22/2013

Every time I want to like Whedon he just makes it more difficult.

Is he being facetious here or does he really not understand that Star Wars was an homage to serialized adventure films and stories from the 1930s and 40s (not unlike Indiana Jones, except of the sci-fi variety)? They often ended with cliffhangers. It was clearly a deliberate artistic choice. And for him to ignorantly say, "I'll go see a French film if I want to see [ambivalent endings]," is so fucking...dumb? He sounds like a stereotypical isolated American geek who's raging about stuff he
Is he being facetious here or does he really not understand that Star Wars was an homage to serialized adventure films and stories from the 1930s and 40s (not unlike Indiana Jones, except of the sci-fi variety)? They often ended with cliffhangers. It was clearly a deliberate artistic choice. And for him to ignorantly say, "I'll go see a French film if I want to see [ambivalent endings]," is so fucking...dumb? He sounds like a stereotypical isolated American geek who's raging about stuff he doesn't even fully comprehend. Ugh, I just don't like this guy.
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7:57PM on 08/22/2013
I can agree with him having his own opinion, but it's not his movie, so it's none of his business.
I can agree with him having his own opinion, but it's not his movie, so it's none of his business.
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+2
7:56PM on 08/22/2013

Forget Whedon

He is seriously overrated and is a bad writer himself. Buffy (movie and show) sucked. Firefly was ok, he should thank the other writers on the show. Serenity was less than ok. He had some other show with Dushku in it, sucked. Avengers - had some serious lazy writing in it and plot holes but was a fun film mainly due to what it was and the actors on screen. Sure it had some really great moments, but overall it was lazily written. Who cares what he says about Empire, he will never put out
He is seriously overrated and is a bad writer himself. Buffy (movie and show) sucked. Firefly was ok, he should thank the other writers on the show. Serenity was less than ok. He had some other show with Dushku in it, sucked. Avengers - had some serious lazy writing in it and plot holes but was a fun film mainly due to what it was and the actors on screen. Sure it had some really great moments, but overall it was lazily written. Who cares what he says about Empire, he will never put out anything as well done as that film I am sure.
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8:37AM on 08/23/2013
I'm sorry but was i supposed to read your post or just dismiss you as an asshole?
I'm sorry but was i supposed to read your post or just dismiss you as an asshole?
11:01AM on 08/23/2013
Such witty banter!
Such witty banter!
7:42PM on 08/22/2013
I actually agree with Whedon on this. Don't get me wrong, I love Empire, Back To The Future 2 and even most of Matrix Reloaded, but cliffhanger endings in movies bother me.
I actually agree with Whedon on this. Don't get me wrong, I love Empire, Back To The Future 2 and even most of Matrix Reloaded, but cliffhanger endings in movies bother me.
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7:25PM on 08/22/2013

For once I disagree with Whedon!!

It's his opinion, and in the end it's not that big of a deal. I think he just kinda misses the point as well. A sequel was guaranteed so it's not like it was left open-ended with a low chance of continuing the series. Many movies leave things open for a sequel that never comes... in those instances, I do agree with his sentiment.
It's his opinion, and in the end it's not that big of a deal. I think he just kinda misses the point as well. A sequel was guaranteed so it's not like it was left open-ended with a low chance of continuing the series. Many movies leave things open for a sequel that never comes... in those instances, I do agree with his sentiment.
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7:22PM on 08/22/2013
A filmmaker offers his own opinion about a movie, and is met by "shut up" and "f*ck you". Great conversation here schmoes... No where did he say he thinks people are dumb for liking it or saying Lucas is a bad writer/director. At the very least, he offers his rationale as to why he thought it was a bad idea TO HIM. But that still warrants instant hate. *Slow clap*
A filmmaker offers his own opinion about a movie, and is met by "shut up" and "f*ck you". Great conversation here schmoes... No where did he say he thinks people are dumb for liking it or saying Lucas is a bad writer/director. At the very least, he offers his rationale as to why he thought it was a bad idea TO HIM. But that still warrants instant hate. *Slow clap*
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7:25PM on 08/22/2013
When you poop on a piece of work like this, he should have a better explanation for it. What he's doing here, is shitting on French films, and not having the foresight to see that some movies can have more than one chapter.
When you poop on a piece of work like this, he should have a better explanation for it. What he's doing here, is shitting on French films, and not having the foresight to see that some movies can have more than one chapter.
7:05PM on 08/22/2013
Is it just me or did his head get way too big after 'The Avengers'? Suddenly his sh*t doesn't stink.
Is it just me or did his head get way too big after 'The Avengers'? Suddenly his sh*t doesn't stink.
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6:58PM on 08/22/2013
Shut up Whedon.
Shut up Whedon.
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+7
6:57PM on 08/22/2013

So Joss...

If "a movie has to be complete within itself", what's with the Thanos scene during the credits of The Avengers? I know post-credit scenes aren't really cliffhangers but you're arguing about a films ability to stand alone. The post-credit scenes in all of these Marvel films are used to link one character to another and really serve no purpose to the story line of that film. Whedon is introducing plot threads after the primary storyline which can't be resolved until the next entry of Phase 2 or
If "a movie has to be complete within itself", what's with the Thanos scene during the credits of The Avengers? I know post-credit scenes aren't really cliffhangers but you're arguing about a films ability to stand alone. The post-credit scenes in all of these Marvel films are used to link one character to another and really serve no purpose to the story line of that film. Whedon is introducing plot threads after the primary storyline which can't be resolved until the next entry of Phase 2 or later.
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6:34PM on 08/22/2013
It really depends on the kind of film you're making as well as a host of other variables. If you're planning a franchise or you know you're going to make it a trilogy, then why not end with a cliffhanger? I personally like them. Sure, it's torturous having to wait until the following year or a few years down the road, but it is possible to complete a story arc and have a resolution and then have an event, revelation or whatever it may be that shows us that the big picture has yet to be
It really depends on the kind of film you're making as well as a host of other variables. If you're planning a franchise or you know you're going to make it a trilogy, then why not end with a cliffhanger? I personally like them. Sure, it's torturous having to wait until the following year or a few years down the road, but it is possible to complete a story arc and have a resolution and then have an event, revelation or whatever it may be that shows us that the big picture has yet to be resolved, which leads into the following one. That's how each installment of The Lord of the Rings trilogy was. Each had its own identity and primary point or theme which was resolved at the end of each one and with the first two installments, despite certain resolutions, the overall story had yet to be resolved, so they ended with certain things up in the air.
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+1
6:29PM on 08/22/2013

Blasphemy

Until Whedon makes a film, or series of films, as legendary as the original Star Wars, he should keep sucking the Empire teet like the rest of the world.
Best. Movie. Ever.
Until Whedon makes a film, or series of films, as legendary as the original Star Wars, he should keep sucking the Empire teet like the rest of the world.
Best. Movie. Ever.
Your Reply:



6:13PM on 08/22/2013
I'm sorry but these comments seem really hypocritical and people are missing the point because he made an unpopular statement. Yesterday, Pegg basically says "fuck you" to everyone who didn't like Into Darkness and everyone goes "yeah, you're the man!" Whedon says he wasn't a fan of the ending of Empire and now everyone is on a "fuck Whedon" bandwagon?

I'm sorry but he has a valid reason. I love Empire but the ending came off as a "we can make money off of another movie" rather than "let's
I'm sorry but these comments seem really hypocritical and people are missing the point because he made an unpopular statement. Yesterday, Pegg basically says "fuck you" to everyone who didn't like Into Darkness and everyone goes "yeah, you're the man!" Whedon says he wasn't a fan of the ending of Empire and now everyone is on a "fuck Whedon" bandwagon?

I'm sorry but he has a valid reason. I love Empire but the ending came off as a "we can make money off of another movie" rather than "let's tell a complete story." A New Hope can stand on it's own because it is a self-contained story that doesn't need any other reference to be enjoyed on. Empire ends on such a "let's make another movie" that it doesn't feel like a complete film. You can't just credit it as "it's like an adventure serial" because then why didn't A New Hope end on a cliffhanger?

I don't think it's fair to say that Whedon is an asshole because he said something unpopular. He didn't even say anything insulting, he just merely stated "I don't like the end of Empire."

Should we really shun someone for not agreeing with everyone else? I didn't agree with Simon Pegg, in fact I thought he was completely off but I still have a ton of respect for the guy. Same as I do Whedon, I don't 100% agree but I still have respect for the guy. If that makes me a bad person then, oh well.
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6:07PM on 08/22/2013
It was also the best because it was the one with least input from George.
It was also the best because it was the one with least input from George.
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6:05PM on 08/22/2013
Leaving a movie on a cliffhanger usually is a bad idea. Certainly movies can have a bleak ending that leaves the audience wanting more. Making a movie for the sole purpose of building to sequels is a bad idea. I do have to say the cliffhanger ending has only worked a handful times; like Back to the Future, The Bourne Series, and Empire Strikes Back.
Leaving a movie on a cliffhanger usually is a bad idea. Certainly movies can have a bleak ending that leaves the audience wanting more. Making a movie for the sole purpose of building to sequels is a bad idea. I do have to say the cliffhanger ending has only worked a handful times; like Back to the Future, The Bourne Series, and Empire Strikes Back.
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+6
5:51PM on 08/22/2013
The ending to The Empire Strikes Back was a terrible idea.......So is fucking with Ultron's origin!
The ending to The Empire Strikes Back was a terrible idea.......So is fucking with Ultron's origin!
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-3
5:49PM on 08/22/2013
At least none of the characters in Star Wars have a lisp.
At least none of the characters in Star Wars have a lisp.
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5:29PM on 08/22/2013
The ending of Empire is one of the few reasons I still love Star Wars, even after all the shit that has been introduced since that gets unjustly lumped together under the same monicker. It was real, it was raw, it was emotional. It didn't have a pretty little bow wrapped around it. That ending was the moment Star Wars went from mere popcorn movies to true cinema.
The ending of Empire is one of the few reasons I still love Star Wars, even after all the shit that has been introduced since that gets unjustly lumped together under the same monicker. It was real, it was raw, it was emotional. It didn't have a pretty little bow wrapped around it. That ending was the moment Star Wars went from mere popcorn movies to true cinema.
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+4
5:28PM on 08/22/2013

So let's see...

Changing Ultron's origin and powers. Looking at Saoirse Ronan and Elizabeth Olsen for the buxom Scarlet Witch. Badmouthing the brilliant Empire Strikes Back...Joss Whedon is starting to scare me. Has the Lucas-effect started? Hmmmm.

Look, he can feel this way about Empire if he wants. But PART of the genius behind the movie is that it doesn't have an ending. It's a thrilling chase movie that ends badly for all the heroes involved. Stakes are set and huge reveals are laid down upon everyone
Changing Ultron's origin and powers. Looking at Saoirse Ronan and Elizabeth Olsen for the buxom Scarlet Witch. Badmouthing the brilliant Empire Strikes Back...Joss Whedon is starting to scare me. Has the Lucas-effect started? Hmmmm.

Look, he can feel this way about Empire if he wants. But PART of the genius behind the movie is that it doesn't have an ending. It's a thrilling chase movie that ends badly for all the heroes involved. Stakes are set and huge reveals are laid down upon everyone and then it's curtains. It firmly establishes the OT as an absolute TRILOGY by perfectly executing a second act with a conclusion! I think pretty much everyone was hoping that Empire would be the model for Avengers 2, but with this kind of talk...maybe Whedon doesn't get it after all?
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11:38AM on 08/23/2013
Scarlet Witch doesn't have to be buxom.
Scarlet Witch doesn't have to be buxom.
5:28PM on 08/22/2013
The man has the right to his opinion, but in this case, he's just wrong. What did he want the ending to be like? Luke coming back to fight Vader after getting his hand chopped off and discovering the man is his father?
The man has the right to his opinion, but in this case, he's just wrong. What did he want the ending to be like? Luke coming back to fight Vader after getting his hand chopped off and discovering the man is his father?
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5:27PM on 08/22/2013

Reason behind this

While most people will just jump to the sacrilege of this, I think this really just ties into Whedon's criticism of the current Hollywood mentality of making first installments in projected trilogies. Whedon once specified JUMPER as an example where the audience is deprived of a well-rounded fully realized story because "Oh it's the first in a trilogy! You gotta come back to get the full story!" He--as do I--believe that a full story should be told completely, and the sequel should be able to
While most people will just jump to the sacrilege of this, I think this really just ties into Whedon's criticism of the current Hollywood mentality of making first installments in projected trilogies. Whedon once specified JUMPER as an example where the audience is deprived of a well-rounded fully realized story because "Oh it's the first in a trilogy! You gotta come back to get the full story!" He--as do I--believe that a full story should be told completely, and the sequel should be able to stand on its own while continuing the story. That doesn't mean you can't have a left open ending (BATMAN BEGINS, DARK KNIGHT, WRATH OF KHAN, EMPIRE STRIKES BACK), but you have to ensure that your main story is completed and the audience granted a fulfilling experience.
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12:14AM on 08/23/2013
Well said, sir. Completely agree about modern films. Green Lantern was a terrible example of that phenomena.
Well said, sir. Completely agree about modern films. Green Lantern was a terrible example of that phenomena.
5:08PM on 08/22/2013

Entitled to his opinion...

...but boy is he wrong on this one haha. So no movies should have a cliffhanger? All that should matter is that the movie improved in every which way from the 1st one, and the ending is emotionally satisfying. Which it was. To say that no movie should end in a cliffhanger is pretty narrow-minded.
...but boy is he wrong on this one haha. So no movies should have a cliffhanger? All that should matter is that the movie improved in every which way from the 1st one, and the ending is emotionally satisfying. Which it was. To say that no movie should end in a cliffhanger is pretty narrow-minded.
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5:05PM on 08/22/2013
Fuck him! Lucas and Spielberg always referred to Star Wars and Indiana Jones as "cereals" we'll Jos that's exactly what cerals do! They End in mother fucking cliffhangers! What a Douche! Ill still see avengers though... Lol
Fuck him! Lucas and Spielberg always referred to Star Wars and Indiana Jones as "cereals" we'll Jos that's exactly what cerals do! They End in mother fucking cliffhangers! What a Douche! Ill still see avengers though... Lol
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8:46AM on 08/23/2013
"cereals"?! Lucas and Spielberg wanted people to eat Star Wars and Indiana Jones for breakfast with milk?!
"cereals"?! Lucas and Spielberg wanted people to eat Star Wars and Indiana Jones for breakfast with milk?!
4:49PM on 08/22/2013
Wonder what he would say about Harrypotter series which took 8 films to defeat the antagonist! What about the Thanos cliffhanger in The Avengers?!
Wonder what he would say about Harrypotter series which took 8 films to defeat the antagonist! What about the Thanos cliffhanger in The Avengers?!
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+13
4:42PM on 08/22/2013
Oh, shut the fuck off, Whedon!!!
Oh, shut the fuck off, Whedon!!!
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4:21PM on 08/22/2013
Bitch slapping a Star Wars film is one thing, but doing it to French cinema? As a filmmaker the dude is way out of line.
Bitch slapping a Star Wars film is one thing, but doing it to French cinema? As a filmmaker the dude is way out of line.
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4:15PM on 08/22/2013

hangin

Actually the lack of cliffhangers is what comic book movies are missing. Every superhero meets their toughest enemy whips them in the last 20 minutes and then 3 years later there's a new toughest enemy. Marvel has the best opportunity to address this cause everyone knows 100% there will be a follow up movie. The Mandarin was a prime example of people afraid of cliffhangers and they chopped off his balls so he could fit in one movie.
Actually the lack of cliffhangers is what comic book movies are missing. Every superhero meets their toughest enemy whips them in the last 20 minutes and then 3 years later there's a new toughest enemy. Marvel has the best opportunity to address this cause everyone knows 100% there will be a follow up movie. The Mandarin was a prime example of people afraid of cliffhangers and they chopped off his balls so he could fit in one movie.
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4:14PM on 08/22/2013
Really don't mind what he says, it's just an unpopular opinion. It's like me among friends saying that I loved the Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions, and I do. They all disagree with me but respect my opinion. Back in 1999, Joss thought of a clever dialogue that was Storm's Toad quote. People make mistakes. Just thought I mention that. I remember reading an article about how he came up with that. It's been a long time ago. I may be wrong.
Really don't mind what he says, it's just an unpopular opinion. It's like me among friends saying that I loved the Matrix Reloaded and Revolutions, and I do. They all disagree with me but respect my opinion. Back in 1999, Joss thought of a clever dialogue that was Storm's Toad quote. People make mistakes. Just thought I mention that. I remember reading an article about how he came up with that. It's been a long time ago. I may be wrong.
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10:50PM on 08/22/2013
You're not wrong - it was a line of his they kept from his script that they otherwise threw out. He wrote the line to be delivered in a flip, offhand way... but he described Halle Berry as delivering it like she was Desdemona on the balcony, which made the line flop badly. Either way, it wasn't such a great line.

Also, for trivia, he wrote the Cyclops / Wolverine "You're a dick" exchange.
You're not wrong - it was a line of his they kept from his script that they otherwise threw out. He wrote the line to be delivered in a flip, offhand way... but he described Halle Berry as delivering it like she was Desdemona on the balcony, which made the line flop badly. Either way, it wasn't such a great line.

Also, for trivia, he wrote the Cyclops / Wolverine "You're a dick" exchange.
4:13PM on 08/22/2013
Joss has held this opinion for years - it's not the first time he's voiced it, though it seems to be the first time many are hearing it. To me, I agree that the movie has no real ending, but I didn't find it affected my enjoyment one iota. The stakes had been raised, the twist had rocked me, and the good guys were reeling! Top film.
Joss has held this opinion for years - it's not the first time he's voiced it, though it seems to be the first time many are hearing it. To me, I agree that the movie has no real ending, but I didn't find it affected my enjoyment one iota. The stakes had been raised, the twist had rocked me, and the good guys were reeling! Top film.
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4:10PM on 08/22/2013

I don't agree

But whatever. no need to hyperventilate over a difference in opinion.
But whatever. no need to hyperventilate over a difference in opinion.
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4:06PM on 08/22/2013

fuuyyuuyuuck him

yep, modern Hollywood is apparently 100% lost in the woods. I thought he was 'a new hope' after firefly but nope..
yep, modern Hollywood is apparently 100% lost in the woods. I thought he was 'a new hope' after firefly but nope..
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4:04PM on 08/22/2013

No fanboy rage, but gotta disagree with ya, Joss

ESB was the strongest film of the original trilogy for several reasons. Number one, the truth about Luke's parentage raised the stakes for this series in a big, bad, totally rockin' way. And, as Alex mentioned already, it hearkens back to the serials George Lucas watched in his youth. Yes, I counted the 3 agonizing years between ESB and RotJ but I never enjoyed ESB any the less for it.
ESB was the strongest film of the original trilogy for several reasons. Number one, the truth about Luke's parentage raised the stakes for this series in a big, bad, totally rockin' way. And, as Alex mentioned already, it hearkens back to the serials George Lucas watched in his youth. Yes, I counted the 3 agonizing years between ESB and RotJ but I never enjoyed ESB any the less for it.
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7:16PM on 08/22/2013
Good point
Good point
4:03PM on 08/22/2013
At the time I would probably agree with him but considering how the Star Wars trilogy turned out its hard to criticize. That said, way too many fucking movies nowadays are far more interested in world-building than story-telling. I think more effort should go into completing one movie before they start thinking about more.
At the time I would probably agree with him but considering how the Star Wars trilogy turned out its hard to criticize. That said, way too many fucking movies nowadays are far more interested in world-building than story-telling. I think more effort should go into completing one movie before they start thinking about more.
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+7
3:56PM on 08/22/2013

so..

does he hate the endings of the first 2 Lord of the Rings movies?
does he hate the endings of the first 2 Lord of the Rings movies?
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6:15PM on 08/22/2013
That's not a fair comparison at all. All three films were shot back to back to back so there wasn't the question of a sequel. The Lord of the Rings are 3 films and they all go together. You can't just watch Fellowship or Towers as a stand-alone movie. You can watch A New Hope all by itself and doesn't require a viewing of the next film, unlike Empire.
That's not a fair comparison at all. All three films were shot back to back to back so there wasn't the question of a sequel. The Lord of the Rings are 3 films and they all go together. You can't just watch Fellowship or Towers as a stand-alone movie. You can watch A New Hope all by itself and doesn't require a viewing of the next film, unlike Empire.
3:54PM on 08/22/2013
Love you Joss, but what is this shit?
Love you Joss, but what is this shit?
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3:44PM on 08/22/2013

No

ESB is a brilliant movie, and he is wrong. Thing one, I wouldn't take anything serious from the guy who did Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and two, some people don't need the whole thing layed out before them to enjoy a movie. That's the problem with this ADHD culture. The other thing to remember, is that THEY WANTED TO MAKE A WHOLE SERIES OF MOVIES FROM THE GET GO! That's why it's called Episode 4, 5 and 6!
ESB is a brilliant movie, and he is wrong. Thing one, I wouldn't take anything serious from the guy who did Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and two, some people don't need the whole thing layed out before them to enjoy a movie. That's the problem with this ADHD culture. The other thing to remember, is that THEY WANTED TO MAKE A WHOLE SERIES OF MOVIES FROM THE GET GO! That's why it's called Episode 4, 5 and 6!
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4:09PM on 08/22/2013
This has nothing to do with so-called "ADHD culture."

And who cares if they wanted to make a whole series of movies. They wanted to make more Golden Compasses, but that didn't work out.
This has nothing to do with so-called "ADHD culture."

And who cares if they wanted to make a whole series of movies. They wanted to make more Golden Compasses, but that didn't work out.
5:31PM on 08/22/2013
While I agree with you about Empire, don't criticize the man for Buffy, which is still a highly regarded television show.
While I agree with you about Empire, don't criticize the man for Buffy, which is still a highly regarded television show.
6:23PM on 08/22/2013
Actually Episode 4 was just called Star Wars in the original release. It wasn't until after ESB that ANH was retitled as EP 4. Lucas wanted to make a whole series from the get go, like very producer now wants to make a whole series from the get go.
Actually Episode 4 was just called Star Wars in the original release. It wasn't until after ESB that ANH was retitled as EP 4. Lucas wanted to make a whole series from the get go, like very producer now wants to make a whole series from the get go.
7:05PM on 08/22/2013
Herald. Didn't they have Episode 4 in the original beginning credits? The part where it says A New Hope? Or in the original Star Wars, was it not there. Every picture I see it says, Episode IV, than A New Hope. It might have switched, I know Lucas likes to mess with his films a lot.

I have never been a big fan of Buffy. I know it has a following, and I have watched it before. But I have never been able to stomach it.
Herald. Didn't they have Episode 4 in the original beginning credits? The part where it says A New Hope? Or in the original Star Wars, was it not there. Every picture I see it says, Episode IV, than A New Hope. It might have switched, I know Lucas likes to mess with his films a lot.

I have never been a big fan of Buffy. I know it has a following, and I have watched it before. But I have never been able to stomach it.