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Review: Scream 4

Scream 4
04.15.2011by:
6 10

PLOT: Returning to Woodsboro to launch her new self-help book, Sidney Prescott (Neve Campbell), once again finds herself the target of the Ghostface Killer. With the killer now stalking her niece Jill (Emma Roberts), and her group of friends, including horror fans Kirby (Hayden Panettiere), Robbie (Erik Knudsen), and Charlie (Rory Culkin), Sidney must once again team up with her old cohorts, Dewey (David Arquette), and Gale (Courteney Cox) to discover the identity of this new Ghostface before Jill and all of her friends are killed.

REVIEW: I was really excited to see SCREAM 4. Time has a way of making a once mediocre franchise sparkle like a diamond, and I must admit to getting swept up in the hype surrounding this new installment. But a funny thing happened to me once I found myself watching the familiar Dimension logo pop up on screen, with the ever-present ring of a phone in the background. Immediately, I was reminded of how stale this franchise seemed by the time the much-reviled SCREAM 3 hit movie-screens.


And what about SCREAM 2, generally thought to be the best of the sequels? Before the screening, I spoke to Arrow about the franchise, and told him how much I remembered liking Part 2. He quickly zapped me back to earth when he assured me that, no, it’s not actually a good movie, and I realized that of the series, only Part 1 was actually a good film.

Does SCREAM 4 revitalize the franchise, and feel as fresh as the first film did back in 1996? Yes and no. Yes in that, SCREAM 4 is by far the best SCREAM sequel we’ve ever gotten, but no, it doesn’t feel particularly fresh or inspired. The first film was a bit of a one-off, in that it was a clever genre deconstruction, that really couldn’t be duplicated without coming off as derivative as many of the films that followed the initial slasher wave in the eighties.


But, SCREAM 4 does benefit from the fact that horror has been in bad shape since the third SCREAM hit theaters. A sharply directed, bloody, R-rated slasher flick with a good cast can’t help but look mighty slick next to the increasingly poor films in the SAW-franchise, or some of the wimpy PG-13 horror remakes we’ve seen lately. Too bad the script by Kevin Williamson (and probably a half-a-dozen other “additional” writers) isn’t so hot.

Whatever SCREAM 4 is, it’s a good comeback from Wes Craven, whose MY SOUL TO TAKE and CURSED (which I never thought was THAT bad) were universally reviled by horror fans, leading many to say he’s lost his touch. He’s back in full form here, although the “too clever for its own good” opening teaser (which milks one lame joke to death) had me fearing that this would be a train-wreck.

Once we get back Sidney, played by the appealing as always Neve Campbell (who seemingly hasn’t aged in the last ten years), and the still likable Dewey/Gale couple played by Arquette and Cox , who are now a married couple on the verge of a split, the film takes a major upturn. I even really liked the new group of kids Ghostface terrorizes, with Hayden Panettiere being a major highlight, as the cool, horror-movie loving gal, that sadly, wasn’t around when I was in high school.


My only issue with these new kids is that they seem awfully oblivious to the fact that they’re being picked-off one by one by a killer, although I suppose that was also a problem with the first one.

For the first ninety-minutes or so, SCREAM 4 is a pretty damn fun slasher film, and I was enjoying more than any SCREAM film since the first. Sadly, the film goes badly off the rails in the last twenty minutes. For one thing, I had an inkling early in the film who the killer was, but I hoped I was wrong, as it would have been a dumb twist. Alas, I was right, and the twist is ludicrous, and the final stretch hinges on a performance that just didn’t deliver. This last part of the film is almost unbearably bad, and by the time the credits rolled, I was totally turned off what had, for the most part, but a fun ride.

That said, the majority of SCREAM 4 is quite good, so I can’t just give this a straight slam. Regardless of how badly it goes in the home-stretch, it’s still worth seeing. Heck, I wouldn’t even be opposed to seeing a SCREAM 5. BUT, if it happens, the script has got to be a whole lot better.

Source: Joblo.com

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12:40AM on 07/12/2015
This movie was lame. Just a poor rehash of the original with horrible acting and bland characters. A franchise that have should stayed in the 90s/early 00s. The original cast really phoned there performances too and it shows terribly. Not surprised it flopped at the box office.
This movie was lame. Just a poor rehash of the original with horrible acting and bland characters. A franchise that have should stayed in the 90s/early 00s. The original cast really phoned there performances too and it shows terribly. Not surprised it flopped at the box office.
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11:05AM on 04/17/2011

'bias'?

whilst enjoying that final act I did think the gender of the killer/killers would instinctively turn some people off.
whilst enjoying that final act I did think the gender of the killer/killers would instinctively turn some people off.
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3:28AM on 04/17/2011

Too Smart?

Likeable, yes. But I don't know if it was too smart for it's own good or if it was just, no good.
Likeable, yes. But I don't know if it was too smart for it's own good or if it was just, no good.
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12:37AM on 04/16/2011

ENJOYABLE

I enjoyed it. Yes, even the ending. I guess I just bought whatever they were selling. Obviously I wouldn't be a successful movie reviewer. I'd really have a hard time demanding better scripts while keeping a straight face, I'm just a fan of Scream movies.
I enjoyed it. Yes, even the ending. I guess I just bought whatever they were selling. Obviously I wouldn't be a successful movie reviewer. I'd really have a hard time demanding better scripts while keeping a straight face, I'm just a fan of Scream movies.
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10:57PM on 04/15/2011

THIS THIS THIS EXACTLY

"For one thing, I had an inkling early in the film who the killer was, but I hoped I was wrong, as it would have been a dumb twist. Alas, I was right, and the twist is ludicrous, and the final stretch hinges on a performance that just didn’t deliver. This last part of the film is almost unbearably bad, and by the time the credits rolled, I was totally turned off what had, for the most part, but a fun ride."
"For one thing, I had an inkling early in the film who the killer was, but I hoped I was wrong, as it would have been a dumb twist. Alas, I was right, and the twist is ludicrous, and the final stretch hinges on a performance that just didn’t deliver. This last part of the film is almost unbearably bad, and by the time the credits rolled, I was totally turned off what had, for the most part, but a fun ride."
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10:41PM on 04/15/2011

I agree.

I thought the ending was really weak too. The motive of the killer was O.K. but the way said actor sold it didn't work at all for me.
I thought the ending was really weak too. The motive of the killer was O.K. but the way said actor sold it didn't work at all for me.
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5:26PM on 04/15/2011

Unbelievable.

I cant believe that people on this site are urging people to see unoriginal films. I mean come on havent we had enough sequels and film remakes. This is the year with the most sequels coming out ever. thats not good. Which is why i wont contribute my 10 bucks to unoriginality. i mean for all i know 5 years from now well have a scream remake.
I cant believe that people on this site are urging people to see unoriginal films. I mean come on havent we had enough sequels and film remakes. This is the year with the most sequels coming out ever. thats not good. Which is why i wont contribute my 10 bucks to unoriginality. i mean for all i know 5 years from now well have a scream remake.
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5:34PM on 04/15/2011
Sorry dude. This film was far from perfect, but I can't let you get away with that "originality" argument. (Ironically enough Pulp Fiction is my favorite movie of ALL TIME) but out of all the bullshit released this year that were either: Remakes, television adaptations, sequels, prequels, reboots, literary adaptations, comic book adaptations, etc. etc. at least Scream 4 recognized what current climate it sits in and took some jabs at it. The movie is ABOUT unoriginality. It's a commentary ON
Sorry dude. This film was far from perfect, but I can't let you get away with that "originality" argument. (Ironically enough Pulp Fiction is my favorite movie of ALL TIME) but out of all the bullshit released this year that were either: Remakes, television adaptations, sequels, prequels, reboots, literary adaptations, comic book adaptations, etc. etc. at least Scream 4 recognized what current climate it sits in and took some jabs at it. The movie is ABOUT unoriginality. It's a commentary ON unoriginality. No, it wasn't perfect, but I'm not judging the movie by what I wanted it to be. I'm judging it based on what it was, even if that attempt wasn't fully executed as well as it could have been. I'll vouch for a movie that will spit in my face before I vouch for one that will kiss my ass. I think that was one of the biggest cinematic "fuck you" stunts I've ever seen given to an audience and I loved the fact that they were ballsy enough to give us the middle finger.
2:49PM on 04/15/2011

disappointed

Glad everyone seems to be looking forward to this but, I liked it even less then this reviewer. Scream 4 was a sadly boring and predictable sequel that shared very little in terms of suspense and cleverness with the original. Trust me I wanted to like this but was looking at my watch during the last 20 minutes. Even the kills were unremarkable.
Glad everyone seems to be looking forward to this but, I liked it even less then this reviewer. Scream 4 was a sadly boring and predictable sequel that shared very little in terms of suspense and cleverness with the original. Trust me I wanted to like this but was looking at my watch during the last 20 minutes. Even the kills were unremarkable.
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1:51PM on 04/14/2011
I for one am excited for Scream 4 even despite the lackluster sequels. The first Scream is a staple of the 90's and my love for horror movies so I'll watch this regardless. As for the peple who like to diss people over differing opinions, don't read reviews if a different viewpoint on a movie makes your self-esteem even lower than it already is.
I for one am excited for Scream 4 even despite the lackluster sequels. The first Scream is a staple of the 90's and my love for horror movies so I'll watch this regardless. As for the peple who like to diss people over differing opinions, don't read reviews if a different viewpoint on a movie makes your self-esteem even lower than it already is.
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4:04AM on 04/14/2011
Maybe I'm alone, but I liked all the SCREAM movies!
Maybe I'm alone, but I liked all the SCREAM movies!
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1:25AM on 04/14/2011
As soon as you said "Cursed" wasn't that bad I stopped reading.
As soon as you said "Cursed" wasn't that bad I stopped reading.
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4:34PM on 04/15/2011
touche...that movie was a piece of wolf shit
touche...that movie was a piece of wolf shit
10:42PM on 04/15/2011
It was watchable. Sure it wasn't great, not even good but watchable. It's a long way off from An American Werewolf in Paris, that's all I'm saying.
It was watchable. Sure it wasn't great, not even good but watchable. It's a long way off from An American Werewolf in Paris, that's all I'm saying.
+8
9:16PM on 04/13/2011
Slasher films have never really been terribly good. They're based on mostly shallow elements, with the best thing about them being the mystery element or backstory. However, a strong script is typically never there. Even the original Scream, while clever and with decent dialogue, was a fairly shallow story. However, one thing they often provide is sheer entertainment, and that's what I tend to look for. If it has decent kills, a good back story or mystery, and entertaining characters, then I'm
Slasher films have never really been terribly good. They're based on mostly shallow elements, with the best thing about them being the mystery element or backstory. However, a strong script is typically never there. Even the original Scream, while clever and with decent dialogue, was a fairly shallow story. However, one thing they often provide is sheer entertainment, and that's what I tend to look for. If it has decent kills, a good back story or mystery, and entertaining characters, then I'm sold. Despite the lackluster sequels, the Scream franchise has still been good entertainment. If Scream 4 is the best sequel, then it's probably pretty damn entertaining. On the note of the ending, I have heard mixed things, so I think that could be either good or bad depending on your suspension of disbelief, of which I have quite a bit.
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5:36PM on 04/15/2011
Thank you. Why are people acting like slasher films were ever all that dynamic? People are suffering from delusions of grandeur. Do these people complain about the decline in interesting pornography dialogue in their spare time?
Thank you. Why are people acting like slasher films were ever all that dynamic? People are suffering from delusions of grandeur. Do these people complain about the decline in interesting pornography dialogue in their spare time?
6:22PM on 04/13/2011
I'm a huge horror film buff & the Scream series holds a special place cuz while it satirizes the genre they are still pretty much straight up typical horror films & thats all any movies fan can ask for. Since when does a good script matter in a horror film, as long as the main characters are back. I will plan to see this movie & probably mark out like crazy when i see that Scream title once again. As far as whatever the twist is (kudos for at least not revealing it) my instincts are telling
I'm a huge horror film buff & the Scream series holds a special place cuz while it satirizes the genre they are still pretty much straight up typical horror films & thats all any movies fan can ask for. Since when does a good script matter in a horror film, as long as the main characters are back. I will plan to see this movie & probably mark out like crazy when i see that Scream title once again. As far as whatever the twist is (kudos for at least not revealing it) my instincts are telling me the killer is one of the major players from the original & if i am right it will not change my feelings about this franchise.
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5:01PM on 04/13/2011
kickass said we shouldn't tell him to shut up because he was only sharing his opinion.....Well he wasn't just sharing his opinion of the film because he was also bad mouthing people for not liking it.
kickass said we shouldn't tell him to shut up because he was only sharing his opinion.....Well he wasn't just sharing his opinion of the film because he was also bad mouthing people for not liking it.
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6:23PM on 04/13/2011
yur a dick dat is all...you know shit about women & movies, you are a troll as far as i am concerned, but then again you get off on that notion.
yur a dick dat is all...you know shit about women & movies, you are a troll as far as i am concerned, but then again you get off on that notion.
6:26PM on 04/13/2011
OK.
OK.
4:43PM on 04/13/2011

I enjoyed both Scream 2 and 3.

I still have high hope that this installment will be as great as everyone seems to be saying it is. I'm just a little worried that I already know who the killer is :(
I still have high hope that this installment will be as great as everyone seems to be saying it is. I'm just a little worried that I already know who the killer is :(
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4:38PM on 04/13/2011
Saying that there is a twist, is usually a spoiler for me. I only needed to see the trailer to The Perfect Getaway to figure out it's ending.

I haven't seen Scream 4, but by you saying there is a twist at the end, I can pretty much figure it out. I think I know exactly who the killer is and if my guess is right.. it is like you said a dumb twist. *Spoiler Alert*...... I'm guessing it's ..... Sidney?... And I'm guessing they're doing the whole, "she's traumatized so now she's mentally
Saying that there is a twist, is usually a spoiler for me. I only needed to see the trailer to The Perfect Getaway to figure out it's ending.

I haven't seen Scream 4, but by you saying there is a twist at the end, I can pretty much figure it out. I think I know exactly who the killer is and if my guess is right.. it is like you said a dumb twist. *Spoiler Alert*...... I'm guessing it's ..... Sidney?... And I'm guessing they're doing the whole, "she's traumatized so now she's mentally unstable and killing folks." I hope I'm wrong because that would ruin the movie for me.
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4:34PM on 04/13/2011
Imagine if Scream never had any sequels. That would make more sense, wouldn't it?
Imagine if Scream never had any sequels. That would make more sense, wouldn't it?
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+16
4:28PM on 04/13/2011

I did see the film and it IS my opinion

My opinion on the film is the ame one I gave a week ago when I made a comment on this site. The film is bloody, funny, clever, and makes a somewhat powerful statement on remakes/srquels. The opening is hilarious, the finale is crazy. And don't tell me to shut up for not liking this review when it's, in your own words, an OPINION.
My opinion on the film is the ame one I gave a week ago when I made a comment on this site. The film is bloody, funny, clever, and makes a somewhat powerful statement on remakes/srquels. The opening is hilarious, the finale is crazy. And don't tell me to shut up for not liking this review when it's, in your own words, an OPINION.
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4:54PM on 04/13/2011
You didn't just give your opinion though. You also bad-mouthed someone for not sharing your opinion. That was rude.
You didn't just give your opinion though. You also bad-mouthed someone for not sharing your opinion. That was rude.
8:43AM on 04/15/2011
I didn't see the movie but I have read the review and your review of the review. I give your review of the review 0/10. Chris says "SCREAM 4 is by far the best SCREAM sequel we’ve ever gotten". You said "this the best Scream since the first". Seems to me the only difference between you and Chris is in the final ratings you would give. I actually liked all three Scream movies but the trailer to Scream 4 has left me underwhelmed. If Scream 4 is better than Scream 2 or Scream 3 than what
I didn't see the movie but I have read the review and your review of the review. I give your review of the review 0/10. Chris says "SCREAM 4 is by far the best SCREAM sequel we’ve ever gotten". You said "this the best Scream since the first". Seems to me the only difference between you and Chris is in the final ratings you would give. I actually liked all three Scream movies but the trailer to Scream 4 has left me underwhelmed. If Scream 4 is better than Scream 2 or Scream 3 than what difference does it make what rating is given?
+12
4:23PM on 04/13/2011

Agreed with Kickass

If it's supposedly better than Scream 2, then that means it's gonna kick ass, cuz Scream 2 was out of the park amazing, especially in the shadow of the first. Talk about recapturing lightning in a bottle. Cannot wait to see this.
If it's supposedly better than Scream 2, then that means it's gonna kick ass, cuz Scream 2 was out of the park amazing, especially in the shadow of the first. Talk about recapturing lightning in a bottle. Cannot wait to see this.
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4:18PM on 04/13/2011

Attention all readers...this is your conscience speaking!

Contrary to popular belief, other people may or may not like something that you do or do not. This does not make them wrong or stupid. That is all.
Contrary to popular belief, other people may or may not like something that you do or do not. This does not make them wrong or stupid. That is all.
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-11
4:14PM on 04/13/2011
kickass should change his name to dumbass.
kickass should change his name to dumbass.
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4:19PM on 04/13/2011
But if I did that, I'd fit right in. Why would I want to do that?
But if I did that, I'd fit right in. Why would I want to do that?
4:56PM on 04/13/2011
Huh???......You'd fit right in where? You didn't say where you'd fit in or with who. Your reply was idiotic. You should try thinking before you reply.
Huh???......You'd fit right in where? You didn't say where you'd fit in or with who. Your reply was idiotic. You should try thinking before you reply.
3:42PM on 04/13/2011
Is there an after credits scene? just curious. No thrill kill/slasher flick will ever be deemed a masterpiece,even so,I'm anxious to see this.
Is there an after credits scene? just curious. No thrill kill/slasher flick will ever be deemed a masterpiece,even so,I'm anxious to see this.
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3:19PM on 04/13/2011
Great review as always Bumbray!!! =D
I'm really looking forward to this film =] and a 6/10 isn't that bad ^_^
Great review as always Bumbray!!! =D
I'm really looking forward to this film =] and a 6/10 isn't that bad ^_^
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3:05PM on 04/13/2011
Look, after ignoring his review for Sucker Punch I will never take any of Chris Bumbray's reviews with a grain of salt. The guy didn't even say to stay away from this movie he gave it a 6/10 which is pretty generous to me. I grew up with this franchise and while the death of Randy in Part 2 soured it for me I still saw and was greatly disappointed by Part 3 (just like everyone else) and come Friday I will be there for the 6.00 matinee AMC theaters. The last 20 mins being uneven makes sense to
Look, after ignoring his review for Sucker Punch I will never take any of Chris Bumbray's reviews with a grain of salt. The guy didn't even say to stay away from this movie he gave it a 6/10 which is pretty generous to me. I grew up with this franchise and while the death of Randy in Part 2 soured it for me I still saw and was greatly disappointed by Part 3 (just like everyone else) and come Friday I will be there for the 6.00 matinee AMC theaters. The last 20 mins being uneven makes sense to me considering that Kevin Williamson was replaced by Ehren Kruger for the dreaded last minute reshoots.
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8:53AM on 04/15/2011
Actually, Sucker Punch wasn't that good a movie. I respect what the writer/director was trying to do but it didn't quite work as a PG-13 movie.
Actually, Sucker Punch wasn't that good a movie. I respect what the writer/director was trying to do but it didn't quite work as a PG-13 movie.
2:08PM on 04/13/2011

easy on bumbray guys!!

Look guys what is your problem this is HIS opinion and while i may not agree with bumbray all the time his opinion is one i treasure more than most critics jesus just cos he didnt love the flick as much as you guys there aint no need to shoot him down with hate.
Look guys what is your problem this is HIS opinion and while i may not agree with bumbray all the time his opinion is one i treasure more than most critics jesus just cos he didnt love the flick as much as you guys there aint no need to shoot him down with hate.
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2:14PM on 04/13/2011
Agree! He's entitled to his opinion, to each his own yo!
Agree! He's entitled to his opinion, to each his own yo!
2:19PM on 04/13/2011
Thanks guys.
Thanks guys.
2:21PM on 04/13/2011
This is what I told kickass. He was being a jerk.
This is what I told kickass. He was being a jerk.
3:35PM on 04/13/2011
Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion and I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with some of chris bumbray's reviews. However Chris don't sink down to their level and go apeshit on people like kickass. Yes, he is wrong for completely bad mouthing you, but just chalk that up to his ignorance. Either way I am hoping that the ending of Scream 4 is a little bit better then you said in your review.
Yes everyone is entitled to their opinion and I find myself agreeing and disagreeing with some of chris bumbray's reviews. However Chris don't sink down to their level and go apeshit on people like kickass. Yes, he is wrong for completely bad mouthing you, but just chalk that up to his ignorance. Either way I am hoping that the ending of Scream 4 is a little bit better then you said in your review.
1:37PM on 04/13/2011

Hmm

I am definitely disappointed in the score,but if you didn't even dig part 2 that much, I still have pretty high hopes for this one. I really liked 2 personally, and almost everyone is saying 4 is on par with, or even better than 2.
I actually watched 2 semi recently, and I thought held up quite well. I have a feeling that I am going to dig this one (as well as I did 2) more than you.
P.S.
I hope this is "fresh" at RT. :)
I am definitely disappointed in the score,but if you didn't even dig part 2 that much, I still have pretty high hopes for this one. I really liked 2 personally, and almost everyone is saying 4 is on par with, or even better than 2.
I actually watched 2 semi recently, and I thought held up quite well. I have a feeling that I am going to dig this one (as well as I did 2) more than you.
P.S.
I hope this is "fresh" at RT. :)
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1:21PM on 04/14/2011
what is going on with my post?
what is going on with my post?
-6
1:23PM on 04/13/2011

I'm giving this REVIEW a 2/10

Bullshit. Not only is this the best Scream since the first, it finale is crazy, hyper-relevant to our times, and is probably the best finale of all the Scream films. The film is neck and neck with the first one and Hayden Panettierre has quickly become a fan favorite. At the LEAST you should have given it an 8/10. I think ppl either don't get Scream or are too old and grumpy to full appreciate cleverly fun movies.
Bullshit. Not only is this the best Scream since the first, it finale is crazy, hyper-relevant to our times, and is probably the best finale of all the Scream films. The film is neck and neck with the first one and Hayden Panettierre has quickly become a fan favorite. At the LEAST you should have given it an 8/10. I think ppl either don't get Scream or are too old and grumpy to full appreciate cleverly fun movies.
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1:42PM on 04/13/2011
People have DIFFERENT opinions. You said people either don't get Scream or they're too old and grumpy to appreciate it. So therefore you're bad mouthing Chris Bumbray because he rated it lower than what you wanted. No need to bad mouth him for thinking differently than you.
People have DIFFERENT opinions. You said people either don't get Scream or they're too old and grumpy to appreciate it. So therefore you're bad mouthing Chris Bumbray because he rated it lower than what you wanted. No need to bad mouth him for thinking differently than you.
2:21PM on 04/13/2011
AT LEAST an 8? The finale is hyper-relevant to our times? Have you seen the movie? God forbid someone have a difference of opinion. You don't like my review- write one of your own!
AT LEAST an 8? The finale is hyper-relevant to our times? Have you seen the movie? God forbid someone have a difference of opinion. You don't like my review- write one of your own!
3:41PM on 04/13/2011
It's called an opinion.
It's called an opinion.
4:24PM on 04/13/2011
Yes I have seen the film, it IS worthy of AT LEAST an 8, and the finale is very hyper-relevant of our times. I'm not the first to agree on this since other reviews have said the same thing. Did YOU even see the same movie? How can anyone question that statement when the entire film itself is a statement on [link] all tossed together within this new story. Did you go to the washroom for half the film?
Yes I have seen the film, it IS worthy of AT LEAST an 8, and the finale is very hyper-relevant of our times. I'm not the first to agree on this since other reviews have said the same thing. Did YOU even see the same movie? How can anyone question that statement when the entire film itself is a statement on [link] all tossed together within this new story. Did you go to the washroom for half the film?
1:03PM on 04/13/2011

Wait...really?

"and the still likable Dewey/Gale couple played by Arquette and Cox , who are now a married couple on the verge of a split." They're characters are literally mirroring they're real life soap opera? Oh dear.
"and the still likable Dewey/Gale couple played by Arquette and Cox , who are now a married couple on the verge of a split." They're characters are literally mirroring they're real life soap opera? Oh dear.
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1:25PM on 04/13/2011
Oh plz. They bicker back and forth because Gale wanst in on the action and Dewey is just taking control. The reviewer exaggerated this piece if shit review.
Oh plz. They bicker back and forth because Gale wanst in on the action and Dewey is just taking control. The reviewer exaggerated this piece if shit review.
1:44PM on 04/13/2011
kickass...this piece of shit review?.....You're a jerk.
kickass...this piece of shit review?.....You're a jerk.
12:37PM on 04/13/2011
Looks like I'll be catching this one from redbox (or sneaking in)
Looks like I'll be catching this one from redbox (or sneaking in)
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